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Offseason Moves - Grade em'

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1 hour ago, MeanJoeCrede said:

The fact that Dylan Covey went from being on the 25 man roster and was counted on to contribute last season to no longer being on our 40 man roster speaks volumes about how this offseason has gone.

And if you think about it, if they resign Yolmer, 4 guys who received a significant amount of playing time (McCann, Engel, Yolmer, Sanchez) can potentially make up their bench.

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2 minutes ago, tray said:

Again, please consider this from Collins perspective.  Becoming a maybe part time catcher or 1B or DH may not be what Collins wants at this point in his career.

Frankly if I were Zach Collins, being a part time catcher where I earn $400k, get close to free agency, and learn from a couple veteran catchers would be a pretty good thing.

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21 minutes ago, tray said:

If the Sox do not trade McCann, Collins, should not be on the 26 man roster for a couple of reasons.  Look at it with Collins interests rather than the interests of the White Sox to keep him as a prospect or a seldom used back-up catcher treading on thin ice on a contending team.

Collins agent and the White Sox would better serve  Collins aspirations to become a starting catcher in the majors by seeking a trade with a team where he is not blocked by a catcher like Grandal making 17 Million a year over the next 4 years.  If the Sox trade McCann and rely on Collins to start 40 games, that might not turn (out) as well as the Collins fans here might think it will.  Or they will pine that playing in 40 games in 2020 was a small sample size and therefore, he should be allowed to start half the games or more in 2021 before the Sox give up on him. 

The guy is 25 years old in February and has no shot to start with the White Sox for several years.  Signing Grandal should have made it clear that the Sox have no confidence (in Collins) as a a starting catcher.   Trade the poor guy and let him have a decent shot somewhere else.

"Trading the poor guy and let him have a decent shot somewher else" is a terrible way to run a baseball organization.  

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1 minute ago, tray said:

How is he close to free agency?

He meant closer.  As in, any time he spends on the MLB roster is that much time closer to FA.

All of this is moot anyway.  Collins is going to be in AAA.  He'll get some chances with the Sox in 2020, but they're not going to give McCann away just so they can downgrade the major league team.  Collins and McCann are both worth more to the Sox than they are in trade.  Therefore, Collins will be in AAA.  

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1 minute ago, tray said:

How is he close to free agency?

He has 55 days of big league service time. 172 days on an active roster constitutes a full year of service time, so he has 0 years towards FA so far but if he's up for just over 1/2 of this season it would count as his first full year.

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Collins and McCann are both worth more to the Sox than they are in trade.

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Agree, but that wasn't my point.

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1 minute ago, tray said:

Collins and McCann are both worth more to the Sox than they are in trade.

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Agree, but that wasn't my point.

Your point is from the outlook of Collins' Dad, not the White Sox.

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The White Sox have, from time to time made trades or moves that take a players interests into account at least to some degree, including trading them to a location that they prefer or where they might get a better shot.  Nothing wrong with that, IMO.

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3 minutes ago, tray said:

Collins and McCann are both worth more to the Sox than they are in trade.

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Agree, but that wasn't my point.

So trading him (or McCann) for scraps accomplishes what exactly for the White Sox?

Collins will get chances in 2020.  He will be the first guy up if about 20% of the roster gets IL'd (Grandal, Mccann, Abreu, EE).  Sox could move McCann mid season as well.  No need to just punt Collins because he doesn't have an OD 2020 roster spot.  What you're advocating for isn't good business.  

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Just now, tray said:

The White Sox have, from time to time made trades or moves that take a players interests into account at least to some degree, including trading them to a location that they prefer or where they might get a better shot.  Nothing wrong with that, IMO.

There is a lot wrong with that with respect to Collins specifically.  

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3 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

There is a lot wrong with that with respect to Collins specifically.  

I would rather allocate McCann's salary towards a reliever. Probably helps the team more than a seldom used catcher.

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1 minute ago, Dick Allen said:

I would rather allocate McCann's salary towards a reliever. Probably helps the team more than a seldom used catcher.

I would rather spend the $6M on Cishek AND keep McCann.  The Sox aren't hurting for $, and don't need to punt McCann and his $5.4M salary to add another reliever.  

If they can trade McCann for a solid reliever, I won't complain.  But I think that move would've been done if it was possible.  

I'd also rather have a real backup catcher.  Collins may be a useful "gadgety" catcher, but I certainly don't want him as the only person capable of catching besides Grandal.  JMO, but also appears to be the Sox.  

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8 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

I would rather spend the $6M on Cishek AND keep McCann.  The Sox aren't hurting for $, and don't need to punt McCann and his $5.4M salary to add another reliever.  

If they can trade McCann for a solid reliever, I won't complain.  But I think that move would've been done if it was possible.  

I'd also rather have a real backup catcher.  Collins may be a useful "gadgety" catcher, but I certainly don't want him as the only person capable of catching besides Grandal.  JMO, but also appears to be the Sox.  

Kind of strange from a guy who pointed to McCann's $2.5 million salary last year and thought because of that, Kevan Smith was the better choice. 

I don't think the Sox spent all the money they spent on Grandal to have him not catch as much as possible. And with Encanarcion around, DH isn't much of an option vs. LHP.  This is such a limited role,  while his salary isn't a ton, it's still an overpay, especially if there is at least a little regression, which seems inevitable. 

Edited by Dick Allen

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2 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Kind of strange from a guy who pointed to McCann's $2.5 million salary last year and thought because of that, Kevan Smith was the better choice. 

I don't think the Sox spent all the money they spent on Grandal to have him not catch as much as possible.

Lol, really? Pointing out comments from over a year ago that were made shortly after McCann got non-tendered from one of the worst teams in baseball is pretty comical stuff.  No, I was not a huge fan of McCann signing last year.  But the guy was pretty dang good in 2020 and obviously the calculus has changed.  Or is changing one's opinion based on the collection of additional information not allowed in the world of Dick Allen?  

No shit the Sox want Grandal to catch as much as possible.  That doesn't mean you just trade McCann for scraps (which is likely all they'd get) because he doesn't appear to have a major role at the moment.  

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Just now, ChiSox59 said:

Lol, really? Pointing out comments from over a year ago that were made shortly after McCann got non-tendered from one of the worst teams in baseball is pretty comical stuff.  No, I was not a huge fan of McCann signing last year.  But the guy was pretty dang good in 2020 and obviously the calculus has changed.  Or is changing one's opinion based on the collection of additional information not allowed in the world of Dick Allen?  

No shit the Sox want Grandal to catch as much as possible.  That doesn't mean you just trade McCann for scraps (which is likely all they'd get) because he doesn't appear to have a major role at the moment.  

The point being the $5.4 million isn't a big deal, the Sox have a lot of money vs. the $2 million savings of McCann and Smith.  If money was a factor last year, why wouldn't it be this?

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9 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

The point being the $5.4 million isn't a big deal, the Sox have a lot of money vs. the $2 million savings of McCann and Smith.  If money was a factor last year, why wouldn't it be this?

Because the White Sox are trying to win this year and weren't last year?  This isn't that complicated.  I agree $5.4M isn't alot of money for a team trying to win baseball games, which is why I think trading him for nothing makes no sense. 

I don't care to go back and look at my comments from over a year ago about McCann, but I would assume my issues at the time of signing had more to do with rolling the dice on a vet without much mlb success and with only 2 years fof control instead of just giving younger guys like Collins and Zavala opportunities in what was certainly going to be a lost season.  I highly doubt my main criticism was the incremental cost difference between $2.5M and mlb minimum as you're seemingly suggesting.  

Edited by ChiSox59

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14 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

The point being the $5.4 million isn't a big deal, the Sox have a lot of money vs. the $2 million savings of McCann and Smith.  If money was a factor last year, why wouldn't it be this?

Because in 2019 the White Sox didn't have a goal of winning games and so every dollar spent in 2019 was a dollar that could potentially be better saved for 2020.  In 2020 the white sox have a goal of winning games so dollars in 2020 can potentially be far more valuable spending. 

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4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Because in 2019 the White Sox didn't have a goal of winning games and so every dollar spent in 2019 was a dollar that could potentially be better saved for 2020.  In 2020 the white sox have a goal of winning games so dollars in 2020 can potentially be far more valuable spending. 

Right.  

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28 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Because the White Sox are trying to win this year and weren't last year?  This isn't that complicated.  I agree $5.4M isn't alot of money for a team trying to win baseball games, which is why I think trading him for nothing makes no sense. 

I don't care to go back and look at my comments from over a year ago about McCann, but I would assume my issues at the time of signing had more to do with rolling the dice on a vet without much mlb success and with only 2 years fof control instead of just giving younger guys like Collins and Zavala opportunities in what was certainly going to be a lost season.  I highly doubt my main criticism was the incremental cost difference between $2.5M and mlb minimum as you're seemingly suggesting.  

You said he was a bad choice last year, and a good choice as a back up this year. I just feel the exact opposite. He was a good choice last year, my posts on his signing will confirm it, although I did erroneously refer to him as a good framer.  He's a bad choice this year. Grandal is here. There is no need to watch James regress for more than double the cash in a very limited role.

Of course this goes with the caveat they could get something useful. If it's just trash,  and  the team can't or won't use the savings to sign another pitcher, I agree, keep him, but chances are he won't be worth his paycheck. It's a back up to one of the best in the league, and the Sox have a ton of catchers on their 40. It's a luxury not needed. 

Edited by Dick Allen

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2 hours ago, soxfan2014 said:

And if you think about it, if they resign Yolmer, 4 guys who received a significant amount of playing time (McCann, Engel, Yolmer, Sanchez) can potentially make up their bench.

And a very good bench it would be.

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1 hour ago, Dick Allen said:

You said he was a bad choice last year, and a good choice as a back up this year. I just feel the exact opposite. He was a good choice last year, my posts on his signing will confirm it, although I did erroneously refer to him as a good framer.  He's a bad choice this year. Grandal is here. There is no need to watch James regress for more than double the cash in a very limited role.

 Of course this goes with the caveat they could get something useful. If it's just trash,  and  the team can't or won't use the savings to sign another pitcher, I agree, keep him, but chances are he won't be worth his paycheck. It's a back up to one of the best in the league, and the Sox have a ton of catchers on their 40. It's a luxury not needed. 

You're not getting anything of any significant value for one year of McCann, and it's not like there was a big money reliever begging to get signed at any point this offseason that McCann  prevented them from going out and getting. Sure Dellin Bentances is a sexy name, but he's a mess at the moment. 

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Yeah, I'm bored. So, I thought I'd bump this thread, so that we can have on record what I thought about the offseason moves.

 

As I look back on the major moves of this offseason, I wanted to let them “breathe” for a few weeks before I chimed in on this thread. This allows all the initial exuberance to wane a bit, so that I could try to take a more nuanced view.

Given that NONE of the realistically “acquirable players” were without flaws, I try to look at the upside potential of the player, AND his downside risk(s); I know that some here overrate the downside of some players moreso than others.

I also look at where this team is in it’s competitive window, as well as the “fit” for the player in the roster, WITHIN that window.

In any case, here’s what I think. Where I wanted a different player, I’ll state it:

Pitching Acquisitions

I thought that this team DESPERATELY needed hedges against the clear and present danger of all the injury risks for a number of the rotation members. If memory serves, Giolito, Cease, Kopech, Dunning, and Rodon all had/have TJS. The other dire need was to have a few more SPs that could be counted on to provide 5-6 IP/start, to ease the burden on the bullpen, IMO. I also thought that this staff needed veteran leadership, and if possible, a LHSP, because the 3 out rule will make LOOGYS less prevalent in MLB.

Dallas Keuchel: B

Gio Gonzalez: C

Cishek signing: B

Instead of Keuchel, I wanted Wheeler, but I won’t beat that dead horse any more. I “thought” we could end up with MadBum, only because I doubted this FO’s ability to work with Borasshole, and I didn’t want to hear the scrubs-centric media beating the cheating scandal to death all year long. That said, Keuchel’s a LHSP who should give this rotation 170+ IP/~4.3-ish FIP over a full season, and his playoff experience should help this staff as it learns how to win. He's also proved his leadership bonafides since he's arrived here, IMO. 

Instead of Gonzalez, I wanted Porcello, as I believe that Porcello has more “upside” as a SP, and that he has a CYA, and that he has a WS ring, and that he speaks Spanish. But, having thought about it, Gonzalez’s versatility, in terms of him having experience in BOTH the BP and in starting, I think Gonzalez is a better “fit” for this year while we wait for Kopech/Rodon/Dunning to arrive.

Cishek is exactly the kind of BP arm this team needs, IMO. We have to hope that RR doesn’t overuse him.

 

Major Re-Signings

Abreu: C-

Moncada: A+

Robert: A+

Bummer: C

I think most here are in agreement on these re-signings. Abreu’s contract is too long, and I’d like some conversation between the team and some of the major SP pieces to begin at some point this season.

 

Major Position Player Acquisitions

Grandal signing: A

Mazara: D-

Encarnacion: D+

I recognize the upside potential on both Mazara and Encarnacion.

But, I think that KenHahn fell in love with Mazara and his “amazing” 19 HR in 2019, the year of “The Super Happy Fun Juiced Ball.” I think they saw him POUND shitty White Sox pitching in 2019, and got all hot and bothered. But, the man can’t hit v. LHP, which limits him to ~120 games, at best.

Also, he’s as mobile as a drunk Paul Konerko coming off an ankle sprain, so he’ll hurt the team on the basepaths, and every hit that goes into Right-Center Field will go for XBHs. Oh yeah, the rookie in CF will have to bust his ass more on defense [some guy named “Robert”], which will make his transition into being the OF captain and MLB player all that more difficult.

Mazara’s abject lack of range, coupled with the butchery of Jimenez in LF all but guarantees that noted AAAA OF Adam Engel will be in the team, rather than in Charlotte. [Where he could have properly prepared for his future baseball career in Asia or Mexico.] Because Mazara can’t defend  because he can't move his feet, and can’t hit LHP, we’ll all get to feast our eyes on ~300 PA of Engel futility at the dish this year.

I don’t outright “hate” this move, but it’s pretty close.

 

On Encarnacion, I get that he’s hit a lot of HR over the past few years. But, he’s a geezing geezer, and Father Time is undefeated.  I mean, he’s 37 fucking years old! At some point, his bat will slow, his power will fade, his contact abilities will be robbed from him, and his hand-eye coordination will be sub-MLB caliber. Whether that happens in 2020, or 2021, who knows? But it WILL happen, right in the middle of the likely competitive window.

Since I believe 2021 could/should be the year for this team to compete for the division, I will have even less confidence in a then-38 year old geezing geezer. Add into it the presence of Abreu/Collins/ Vaughn in 2021, and KenHahn look to have over-staffed the 1B/DH roles, IMO. As such, I don’t really like the fit for a 37 year old Encarnacion. And honestly, what was the market for a DH-only geezer?

 

I wanted Puig instead of Mazara, despite all the group-think on these boards that somehow made Puig out to being worse than Hitler. I think were he here, you’d have to trust the leadership in the clubhouse, AND a man’s natural maturation to bridge some of these [IMO grossly overstated] “issues.”

Instead of a geezing geezer in Encarnacion, I wanted a more youthful Tsutsugo, who was signed by a better and smarter Tampa FO. There’s also the outside chance, however slight, that Tsutsugo could play either a corner IF or corner OF spot in a pinch, while “re-opening” the Japanese market to the SOX for future acquisitions.

Hell, even RF-Puig/DH-Mazara would have been better than RF Statue-Mazara/DH Fossil-Encarnacion, because Mazara’s crippling lack of footspeed wouldn’t hurt the OF defense as often if he were the DH/Puig asshole insurance/backup RF.

 

Overall Offseason Grade: C+/B-

For my money, an “A Offseason” would have had to include the acquisition of an MVP candidate, or a Cy Young candidate. An “A+ Offseason” would have also addressed some of the organizational shortcomings as well.

Credit the FO for stepping outside their “safety zone,” and actually helping JR find his checkbook. While they missed out on Wheeler, simply having fewer Detwiller/Covey/Banuelos starts should be a big help to the rotation and bullpen. They addressed the need for an impact LHB in Grandal, and invested in extending the keystone player to this team’s future in Robert. However, I really think they screwed the pooch with the Mazara/Encarnacion acquisitions. I believe that for this team to compete, one or both of these two players will need to be replaced by better/more complete/younger options by OD 2021.

 

I’m still pleased with the offseason, as I’d become accustomed to “F” and “D” offseasons. We should be better, but I don’t see us as a playoff team in 2020. We’ll see.

Edited by Two-Gun Pete

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1 hour ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

 

 

On Encarnacion, I get that he’s hit a lot of HR over the past few years. But, he’s a geezing geezer, and Father Time is undefeated.  I mean, he’s 37 fucking years old! At some point, his bat will slow, his power will fade, his contact abilities will be robbed from him, and his hand-eye coordination will be sub-MLB caliber. Whether that happens in 2020, or 2021, who knows? But it WILL happen, right in the middle of the likely competitive window.

Since I believe 2021 could/should be the year for this team to compete for the division, I will have even less confidence in a then-38 year old geezing geezer. Add into it the presence of Abreu/Collins/ Vaughn in 2021, and KenHahn look to have over-staffed the 1B/DH roles, IMO. As such, I don’t really like the fit for a 37 year old Encarnacion. And honestly, what was the market for a DH-only geezer?

 

 

 

 

I think the Sox were pretty transparent with the way they did the Encarnacion deal. It's a 1 year, 12 million dollar deal. I think the only way they pick up the 2021 option on Edwin is if 1. He has an unreal 2020 season (yay) or Andrew Vaughn has a TERRIBLE 2020 season and is nowhere close to ready. 

They have plenty of flexibility with Edwin and his contract, he should be of no concern past 2020. 

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Sox are great with veteran DHs. Turns out he was an unnecessary luxury who puts the squeeze on McCann's future PT. Many of us would prefer to give Mercedes an audition. We might see rosters expand. 

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