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COVID-19/Coronavirus thread

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1 minute ago, Quin said:

Last week Trump said testing is overrated and that our numbers are only high because of testing.

"If we didn’t do any testing, we would have very few cases.”

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/trump-says-coronavirus-testing-overratedclaims-fewer-cases-if-no-testing-2020-05-14

That is why I posted earlier, we can cure cancer by ending all biopsy’s.

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4 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

That is why I posted earlier, we can cure cancer by ending all biopsy’s.

If you don't call the fire department, the number of burning buildings plummets.

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3 hours ago, bmags said:

Even if you accepted that no other country is comparable to America, and that no other outbreak was comparable to this, the idea that you can't criticize the president of the united states for not doing a good enough job at something novel and new is not compelling.

The federal gov't is good at scaling up and mobilizing production that makes coordinating nationally a lot easier than by state. The US approach has been incredibly water-fall like.

It first had to build out medical capacity and protective gear

then it built out testing

then it is now building out tracing

and just now has the tsa starting to do prevention with temperature checks an forcing mask wearing.

This stuff was happening all at once in other countries that have been more successful. Alaska has had a comprehensive tracing system due to TB to its advantage and has done exceedingly well. NOLA had good amounts of testing early on and bent its curve earlier.

But state by state they were competing with other countries purchases and slowing everything down. 

For the last century the US public health infrastructure has been so good at not just preventing things in the US, but assisting at preventing outbreaks from occurring.

Now the US response was at best average compared to other countries instead of world-leading.

You could ask why that is, or you could say that you are being mean. 

Or worse - that some unelected people with much less information at their disposal than the president of the united states didn't know exactly what to do in february so therefore nobody is allowed to say that the president misstepped.

Of course the president made missteps.  I guess on a sports talk site where "I can't believe he threw the curve ball with runners on second and third and a pitch to waste" is de rigueur.   I also think when the loudest and most energetic voices that come here are Democrats, non-stop criticism about the president crowds out other voices.   Still this section was supposed to be about the virus and as I said...it started off interesting but the streams of hurled accusations followed by "I can't believe HE made this political" is "not compelling".  

As for the government scaling things up...again perfect hindsight.  The government should have just taken the government factories and started producing testing immediately.  In fact it's amazing that we didn't have an enormous stock pile of tests for this never-before-seen virus in government warehouses someplace.  And imagine our incompetence that 60 days after this never-before-seen virus started invading our country that we were not 100% prepared.  

If you start with the end point..."The President is an idiot" then you fill in the evidence to make it work and throw out evidence that doesn't fit the narrative and then shout it from the rooftops and have it echoed by people that think exactly as you do it may seem as if you have the truth.  It just doesn't seem convincing to me.  I think the president is an egomaniac and I hate his NYC aggressive style...it offends my Midwest sensibilities.  I thought President Obama was one of the most decent men to ever be president...but to say he would have done better is farcical.   President Trump is not trying to kill off his voters.  He and his advisors are trying to make heroes of themselves...which is exactly what I want my leader to do in a crisis.    

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11 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Of course the president made missteps.  I guess on a sports talk site where "I can't believe he threw the curve ball with runners on second and third and a pitch to waste" is de rigueur.   I also think when the loudest and most energetic voices that come here are Democrats, non-stop criticism about the president crowds out other voices.   Still this section was supposed to be about the virus and as I said...it started off interesting but the streams of hurled accusations followed by "I can't believe HE made this political" is "not compelling".  

As for the government scaling things up...again perfect hindsight.  The government should have just taken the government factories and started producing testing immediately.  In fact it's amazing that we didn't have an enormous stock pile of tests for this never-before-seen virus in government warehouses someplace.  And imagine our incompetence that 60 days after this never-before-seen virus started invading our country that we were not 100% prepared.  

If you start with the end point..."The President is an idiot" then you fill in the evidence to make it work and throw out evidence that doesn't fit the narrative and then shout it from the rooftops and have it echoed by people that think exactly as you do it may seem as if you have the truth.  It just doesn't seem convincing to me.  I think the president is an egomaniac and I hate his NYC aggressive style...it offends my Midwest sensibilities.  I thought President Obama was one of the most decent men to ever be president...but to say he would have done better is farcical.   President Trump is not trying to kill off his voters.  He and his advisors are trying to make heroes of themselves...which is exactly what I want my leader to do in a crisis.    

By ignoring science?  

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Just now, Dick Allen said:

By ignoring science?  

by attempting to buy cures and treatments, while even Communist China offers to give it away for free.

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2 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Of course the president made missteps.  I guess on a sports talk site where "I can't believe he threw the curve ball with runners on second and third and a pitch to waste" is de rigueur.   I also think when the loudest and most energetic voices that come here are Democrats, non-stop criticism about the president crowds out other voices.   Still this section was supposed to be about the virus and as I said...it started off interesting but the streams of hurled accusations followed by "I can't believe HE made this political" is "not compelling".  

As for the government scaling things up...again perfect hindsight.  The government should have just taken the government factories and started producing testing immediately.  In fact it's amazing that we didn't have an enormous stock pile of tests for this never-before-seen virus in government warehouses someplace.  And imagine our incompetence that 60 days after this never-before-seen virus started invading our country that we were not 100% prepared.  

If you start with the end point..."The President is an idiot" then you fill in the evidence to make it work and throw out evidence that doesn't fit the narrative and then shout it from the rooftops and have it echoed by people that think exactly as you do it may seem as if you have the truth.  It just doesn't seem convincing to me.  I think the president is an egomaniac and I hate his NYC aggressive style...it offends my Midwest sensibilities.  I thought President Obama was one of the most decent men to ever be president...but to say he would have done better is farcical.   President Trump is not trying to kill off his voters.  He and his advisors are trying to make heroes of themselves...which is exactly what I want my leader to do in a crisis.    

Calling for the government to scale things up is the opposite of perfect hindsight. Your incredulousness that the US should "take government factories" and "start producing testing immediately" is funny since that is quite literally what they are supposed to do! Despite it being a new virus it is exactly what many other smaller and less equipped governments were capable of doing.

 

 

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You keep saying "hindsight," but a lot of other countries took different paths, paths that the experts were recommending at the time. The current administration decided to fire their pandemic teams and ignore the prep work done by previous administrations. They decided to downplay it as much as possible early on rather than ramping up production of PPE or testing or medical equipment. They are aggressively pushing the "reopen now" message when actual experts are absolutely not recommending that.

It's not hindsight. The criticism is happening in real time, with predictions of what the current actions will result in. Our first case was in late January, and we did basically nothing to prepare. We're still wasting a lot of time that the lockdown measures, which can't go on forever, have bought us.

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2 hours ago, Tony said:

So two things here. I know you want to hold water for Trump, but....

1. He spent January and February ignoring reports and warnings about how serious things could get

2. Trump seemed to have no problem condemning previous leaders about "Broken Tests" and "Lack of PPE

Sorry, I'm not buying the "How can you blame the administration for this?" position....not only is it not true, but clearly Trump feels like there is plenty of blame to go around....and SURPRISE! He doesn't think he deserves any. 

 

If your argument is...President Trump is an asshole. I'm fine with supporting that.  Go start a discussion page with that as a title and let free the vitriol.  But the rest is utter nonsense.  China announced the Virus on December 31st...and by the 3rd of January we were offering experts to Wuhan to help combat it.  By January 6th the CDC issued a travel advisory against going to Wuhan.  By the 11th they issued a level 1 health advisory against going to Wuhan.   By the 20th the NIH began working on a vaccine.  Also on the 20th the FIRST American came down with it...an American that had come from Wuhan.   The administration declared the Corona virus a national health emergency on January 31st...and started travel restrictions...at that point there were SIX cases in the US.   I guess it was when we hit the 7th case that we should have shut down the country???   Study what is happen...the virus is very interesting...but please leave the idiotic hindsight someplace else.

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7 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

If your argument is...President Trump is an asshole. I'm fine with supporting that.  Go start a discussion page with that as a title and let free the vitriol.  But the rest is utter nonsense.  China announced the Virus on December 31st...and by the 3rd of January we were offering experts to Wuhan to help combat it.  By January 6th the CDC issued a travel advisory against going to Wuhan.  By the 11th they issued a level 1 health advisory against going to Wuhan.   By the 20th the NIH began working on a vaccine.  Also on the 20th the FIRST American came down with it...an American that had come from Wuhan.   The administration declared the Corona virus a national health emergency on January 31st...and started travel restrictions...at that point there were SIX cases in the US.   I guess it was when we hit the 7th case that we should have shut down the country???   Study what is happen...the virus is very interesting...but please leave the idiotic hindsight someplace else.

And then for that entire next month we refused to take test kits from overseas, the CDC insisted on developing their own and they were faulty, and as a consequence we imported cases from Italy in Mid-Feb, they got to New York totally undetected because we went 3 weeks with almost no tests, the FDA was ordering private labs not to do any testing, there were several super-spreading events, and by March 1 there were probably several thousand active cases floating around New York City with 1 positive test. 

Washington and California responded to realizing they had major outbreaks with full shutdowns that week, but New York City and many other states dithered, allowing it to spread around the country even more over the next several weeks. 

The US didn't take advantage of that month to begin acquiring supplies, we were even shipping them overseas in February. We didn't come up with response plans, we didn't begin preparing people for any sort of actions they might have to take. We weren't working on 14 day quarantines for people coming from infected areas, we weren't even assuming community spread was possible. The people at the CDC, incuding Trump's appointee at the top, were a complete disaster. 

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1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

And then for that entire next month we refused to take test kits from overseas, the CDC insisted on developing their own and they were faulty, and as a consequence we imported cases from Italy in Mid-Feb, they got to New York totally undetected because we went 3 weeks with almost no tests, the FDA was ordering private labs not to do any testing, there were several super-spreading events, and by March 1 there were probably several thousand active cases floating around New York City with 1 positive test. 

Washington and California responded to realizing they had major outbreaks with full shutdowns that week, but New York City and many other states dithered, allowing it to spread around the country even more over the next several weeks. 

Sure I'm happy to go with a narrative of "The CDC REALLY botched this".  The smartest scientists and it's their sole job to protect us from this sort of thing and they completely let us down.  That is way more interesting a narrative that the president did nothing and that's why we are where we are.  I'm also happy with a discussion about the virus and why the Chinese lied and lied and lied (and continue to lie today) and that led to tens of thousands of Americans dead.  Interesting.  The cure that biotech company in California said they found...interesting.  The possibly early introduction into the US...maybe as early as mid-December in California...interesting.  But comment after comment after comment slamming the president is lazy and boring.

 

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1 minute ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Sure I'm happy to go with a narrative of "The CDC REALLY botched this".  The smartest scientists and it's their sole job to protect us from this sort of thing and they completely let us down.  That is way more interesting a narrative that the president did nothing and that's why we are where we are.  I'm also happy with a discussion about the virus and why the Chinese lied and lied and lied (and continue to lie today) and that led to tens of thousands of Americans dead.  Interesting.  The cure that biotech company in California said they found...interesting.  The possibly early introduction into the US...maybe as early as mid-December in California...interesting.  But comment after comment after comment slamming the president is lazy and boring.

 

There is clear DNA evidence that even if there was any early introductions into the US, they did not become an epidemic. The strains circulating in the US today are dominated by the strain that erupted in Italy in February. They were imported into New York in February, undetected, and spread everywhere from there. ONly a handful of people in Washington and California ever got sick from direct strains imported from China.

There is no cure.

The Chinese did exactly what our government did when faced with the epidemic, they dithered for a few days and that allowed major spread. They had lots of people traveling for a holiday and didn't want to provoke a panic/hurt the economy out of it. They waited about a week from the point where they had clearly identified the new strain on about January 9 to the point where they had everything to the WHO on January 21 and that was plenty to allow a huge amount of spread. They literally did the exact same thing our government did. So, why is one interesting and not the other to you?

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17 minutes ago, StrangeSox said:

You keep saying "hindsight," but a lot of other countries took different paths, paths that the experts were recommending at the time. The current administration decided to fire their pandemic teams and ignore the prep work done by previous administrations. They decided to downplay it as much as possible early on rather than ramping up production of PPE or testing or medical equipment. They are aggressively pushing the "reopen now" message when actual experts are absolutely not recommending that.

It's not hindsight. The criticism is happening in real time, with predictions of what the current actions will result in. Our first case was in late January, and we did basically nothing to prepare. We're still wasting a lot of time that the lockdown measures, which can't go on forever, have bought us.

Hell there elected officials who sold stock off of the briefings they got with a lot less information than the President had.

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15 minutes ago, StrangeSox said:

You keep saying "hindsight," but a lot of other countries took different paths, paths that the experts were recommending at the time. The current administration decided to fire their pandemic teams and ignore the prep work done by previous administrations. They decided to downplay it as much as possible early on rather than ramping up production of PPE or testing or medical equipment. They are aggressively pushing the "reopen now" message when actual experts are absolutely not recommending that.

It's not hindsight. The criticism is happening in real time, with predictions of what the current actions will result in. Our first case was in late January, and we did basically nothing to prepare. We're still wasting a lot of time that the lockdown measures, which can't go on forever, have bought us.

Fired the pandemic team is such a lazy argument.  CDC funding in the last year under Obama was $7 billion...it was higher in every year of the Trump presidency.  I showed the timeline...I'm not sure a reasonable president would have acted much differently.  But yeah partisanship!!  Go your team!   

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3 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Fired the pandemic team is such a lazy argument.  CDC funding in the last year under Obama was $7 billion...it was higher in every year of the Trump presidency.  I showed the timeline...I'm not sure a reasonable president would have acted much differently.  But yeah partisanship!!  Go your team!   

But you realize that Congress plays a role in funding also, right? 

Each year, the President's OMB makes each agency create a budget, and the agency has to abide by that budget until Congress passes something. if the President's budget shows a cut, then things have to be shut down or slowed, sometimes for months, and only then might Congress step in. Several of the programs that dealt with epidemic preparation were eliminated based on these OMB orders over the past few years. 

The President's budget request this year for the CDC was $6.5 billion, showing a more than 10% cut. That was submitted to Congress on February 10. So, propose budget cuts every year, Congress doesn't step in for months, so the CDC is shedding preparedness ability the whole time.

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4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

There is clear DNA evidence that even if there was any early introductions into the US, they did not become an epidemic. The strains circulating in the US today are dominated by the strain that erupted in Italy in February. They were imported into New York in February, undetected, and spread everywhere from there. ONly a handful of people in Washington and California ever got sick from direct strains imported from China.

There is no cure.

The Chinese did exactly what our government did when faced with the epidemic, they dithered for a few days and that allowed major spread. They had lots of people traveling for a holiday and didn't want to provoke a panic/hurt the economy out of it. They waited about a week from the point where they had clearly identified the new strain on about January 9 to the point where they had everything to the WHO on January 21 and that was plenty to allow a huge amount of spread. They literally did the exact same thing our government did. So, why is one interesting and not the other to you?

A few days???  They announced to the WHO on December 31st about it.  On January 6th a doctor and 13 nurses working on patients came down with it.  On January 20th HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of residents of Wuhan left the city for the new years festive and traveled all over the world...including one of their favorite overseas destinations...Italy.  Then January 23rd they closed up Wuhan.  

And you say we dithered about people coming in from Italy in February?  Come on Balta that is just partisan hate...and yes hindsight.  On February 18th there were THREE cases in Italy.  By the end of February there were only 1,000 cases in a country of 60 million people. But a week and a half later we shut down travel from Europe.  That is lightening speed.  Please tell me the day that you, with perfect hindsight, shuts down Europe. Because its nonsense. 

  

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Just now, michelangelosmonkey said:

A few days???  They announced to the WHO on December 31st about it.  On January 6th a doctor and 13 nurses working on patients came down with it.  On January 20th HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of residents of Wuhan left the city for the new years festive and traveled all over the world...including one of their favorite overseas destinations...Italy.  Then January 23rd they closed up Wuhan.  

And you say we dithered about people coming in from Italy in February?  Come on Balta that is just partisan hate...and yes hindsight.  On February 18th there were THREE cases in Italy.  By the end of February there were only 1,000 cases in a country of 60 million people. But a week and a half later we shut down travel from Europe.  That is lightening speed.  Please tell me the day that you, with perfect hindsight, shuts down Europe. Because its nonsense. 

  

Europe? I dunno, but I am in this thread on record on March 3 saying "OMG we completely f***ed up we need to close down the west coast right now and this is going to be a nightmare everyone panic". 

I coudln't know about the NY outbreak...because the US refused, for whatever reason, to accept testing assistance from the WHO. 

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46 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Of course the president made missteps.  I guess on a sports talk site where "I can't believe he threw the curve ball with runners on second and third and a pitch to waste" is de rigueur.   I also think when the loudest and most energetic voices that come here are Democrats, non-stop criticism about the president crowds out other voices.   Still this section was supposed to be about the virus and as I said...it started off interesting but the streams of hurled accusations followed by "I can't believe HE made this political" is "not compelling".  

As for the government scaling things up...again perfect hindsight.  The government should have just taken the government factories and started producing testing immediately.  In fact it's amazing that we didn't have an enormous stock pile of tests for this never-before-seen virus in government warehouses someplace.  And imagine our incompetence that 60 days after this never-before-seen virus started invading our country that we were not 100% prepared.  

If you start with the end point..."The President is an idiot" then you fill in the evidence to make it work and throw out evidence that doesn't fit the narrative and then shout it from the rooftops and have it echoed by people that think exactly as you do it may seem as if you have the truth.  It just doesn't seem convincing to me.  I think the president is an egomaniac and I hate his NYC aggressive style...it offends my Midwest sensibilities.  I thought President Obama was one of the most decent men to ever be president...but to say he would have done better is farcical.   President Trump is not trying to kill off his voters.  He and his advisors are trying to make heroes of themselves...which is exactly what I want my leader to do in a crisis.    

You are living in a fantasy if you think Trump's behavior is defensible. His behavior has been grossly incompetent. He is entitled to his politics but he is just not qualified. Let's move on. 

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4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

But you realize that Congress plays a role in funding also, right? 

Each year, the President's OMB makes each agency create a budget, and the agency has to abide by that budget until Congress passes something. if the President's budget shows a cut, then things have to be shut down or slowed, sometimes for months, and only then might Congress step in. Several of the programs that dealt with epidemic preparation were eliminated based on these OMB orders over the past few years. 

The President's budget request this year for the CDC was $6.5 billion, showing a more than 10% cut. That was submitted to Congress on February 10. So, propose budget cuts every year, Congress doesn't step in for months, so the CDC is shedding preparedness ability the whole time.

And you realize that's how politics work...you ask for a 10% raise, I offer a 10% cut and we settle somewhere in the middle.  In the end the president signs every budget and it becomes his budget.  To not only not give him credit for his budget when it doesn't suit your argument but to say he was forced to swallow the bitter pill of increase CDC spending just seems silly.   And even if there was a little cut...$2.5 billion of the total CDC budget is specifically for the preparation of the country for Pandemics...and that has been the amount for a decade...so how did that $25 billion in government spending pay off when the monster was out of the cage/  

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4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Europe? I dunno, but I am in this thread on record on March 3 saying "OMG we completely f***ed up we need to close down the west coast right now and this is going to be a nightmare everyone panic". 

I coudln't know about the NY outbreak...because the US refused, for whatever reason, to accept testing assistance from the WHO. 

Caulfied has been here since the middle of January.

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5 minutes ago, pcq said:

You are living in a fantasy if you think Trump's behavior is defensible. His behavior has been grossly incompetent. He is entitled to his politics but he is just not qualified. Let's move on. 

You know "I am right and you are wrong, I'm gonna sing the 'I was right song'" is not really an argument.  It is arrogant smugness. But still have a nice day.   

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16 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Fired the pandemic team is such a lazy argument.  CDC funding in the last year under Obama was $7 billion...it was higher in every year of the Trump presidency.  I showed the timeline...I'm not sure a reasonable president would have acted much differently.  But yeah partisanship!!  Go your team!   

The CDC does lots of things. He specifically fired the pandemic preparation team. Lots of people wrote, at the time, that this was going to leave us seriously unprepared in the event of a pandemic. Not hindsight, foresight. Really obvious foresight.

A reasonable President:

  • wouldn't have been insisting in late February that this would never break out in the US.
  • wouldn't be peddling snake oil cures or lying about testing availability or necessity.
  • may have invoked the DPA much earlier in order to ramp up production of PPE and other medical equipment.
  • would have implemented a national strategy for PPE purchasing and distribution rather than states having to do James Bond-level shit including guarding their purchases with state national guard forces so they don't get confiscated by the federal government and then disappear
  • would have implemented a national strategy for locking down for a duration and then safely reopening rather than constantly going back and forth over whether he has total authority over states
  • would not try to wash his hands and eventually say "well it's up to the states" while at the same time attacking any states that don't do exactly what he wants
  • would not have stopped the CDC from issuing reasonable, science-based guidelines for states to reopen

That's just off the top of my head, I'm sure there's plenty more.

The failures here are not solely within the White House or at the federal level, though. You can find numerous posts from me and others in this thread criticizing Cuomo, De Blasio, and others. I think the House Democrats are still failing to put forward the policies we need and the leadership we're lacking.

You just keep saying any specific criticisms of the way the federal government has addressed or failed to address this pandemic are lazy without ever really addressing anything.  The federal government has failed here, and it's cost Americans lives, and their failures will continue to cost lives.

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Meh day reporting wise in IL.

but it’s top level certainly seems down. 
 

21300 tests. 2300 positive. (Roughly) 11% 

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3 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

You know "I am right and you are wrong, I'm gonna sing the 'I was right song'" is not really an argument.  It is arrogant smugness. But still have a nice day.   

Ironically it sounds like something the President has said during this crisis.

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