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COVID-19/Coronavirus thread

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59 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Sorry...yes I was thinking of 1918...100 million people and 675,000 dead, 1957: 172 million people  116,000 dead, 1968 200 million people 100,000 dead.  Today 330 million 85,000 dead.  

So balancing for today's population

1918: 2.2 million

1957: 222,000

1968: 165,000 

Today: 85,000

And just for fun, bubonic plague Italy

14th Century: 200,000,000

How do you figure it is 6 times more deadly or 3?  Not semantics...math.   Either way its a deadly virus.  Viruses can be bad.  

China's actions were those of a totalitarian state that was purposely hiding things.  I've looked at the time lines we took and the deaths and trying to be fair minded thinking how do you decide where the prudent decision is.  I think the president took, and was deeply criticized for, some big decisions.   He missed on some too.  If you want to live in your tent and blame all unknown on him...whatever.  

Yes, math. Go see my original posts. You forgot the whole time thing.

47 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

I was JOKING to my class.  But yes...the president should have done something...like declare it a public health crisis and put in travel restrictions from China a few days later...which is what he did in spite the criticisms of racism that he received (and both Pelosi and Cuomo encouraging their citizens to go to Chinese New Year celebrations over the warning of the Federal government.  But...you know...all Trumps fault.  What would have you done?   

 

42 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

And three days later he shut down travel from Europe.  You pull little quotes out of the 10 million words the president has spoken in the last four months and twist them into a narrative that makes him look like he wasn't doing anything.  The total deaths on February 26th from Corona virus in the US were zero.  ZERO!!!   Should we have shut the country down then?   Hello all Americans...I know no one has this and no one has died from this and the cure will cost trillions of dollars but we are going to shut this place down February 26th.  Honestly its stupid hindsight argument.  

For the record, he didn't "shut down" anything. His China "ban" stopped less than half the travel between them. His Europe "ban" included only parts of Europe, leaving out the UK and other countries that were heavily infected. They were visual moves, not ones that actually accomplished anything. And he did essentially nothing stateside until March, and even then never took anything resembling real actions.

People are going after you because you are defending the indefensible. No one is saying the virus is Trump's fault, no one is saying China is without blame, and no one is saying that the entire situation is on Trump's lap. None are true. They are saying that his lack of leadership and any kind of meaningful action, during a period when most other countries in a similar position were taking far more decisive action. Trump's response was, and has been, an abject failure.

Worth noting too: I've voted in seven Presidential elections so far, and voted for only three democrats (three GOP, 1 3rd party). I also tend more Republican for state offices here in Illinois. So this is not coming from some dyed in the wool Democrat.

 

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11 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Because they shut the entire region down using their army and police force for 2 months starting in January and made it a point to disinfect everything they could in order to get it under control 

But half a million people left Wuhan province the weeks before the shut down.  The epicenter of this and they spread to every region of the country...every city and village in China.  If you do any modeling of a super infectious virus with moderate death rates China should be swimming in corpses.  

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Just now, michelangelosmonkey said:

But half a million people left Wuhan province the weeks before the shut down.  The epicenter of this and they spread to every region of the country...every city and village in China.  If you do any modeling of a super infectious virus with moderate death rates China should be swimming in corpses.  

Literally everyone, including people in China, who have been paying attention, are aware that China's death numbers are a vast undercount. Why they keep pretending otherwise is beyond me since the cat is well out of the bag.

 

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Just now, NorthSideSox72 said:

Literally everyone, including people in China, who have been paying attention, are aware that China's death numbers are a vast undercount. Why they keep pretending otherwise is beyond me since the cat is well out of the bag.

 

Not true. I've seen multiple people here argue that Trump believes China's numbers. 

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11 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

That's exactly what you just did with the earlier numbers to conclude this wasn't a big deal.  Now we are on to China again?  Did a billion people in China get infected?  Because that's what it would take to get those numbers.  Any proof or just more slight of hand?

What are you smoking?  I have NEVER said this wasn't a big deal.  This is a very big deal. Viruses are bad.  I didn't CALCULATE the numbers for ten million. How about a million?   It's about 100,000 in the US.  They have 4 times the population, are a month ahead of us on the curve and have a population with damaged lungs.   I don't believe their numbers but I'm pretty sure if the real number was half a million some dissident would have sent that information.   

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1 minute ago, Yearnin' for Yermin said:

Not true. I've seen multiple people here argue that Trump believes China's numbers. 

I haven't, but feel free to show me. Balta is saying he believes their numbers NOW are pretty low, because of the police state actions they took. And that might be true. But I haven't seen him say that the numbers from Wuhan in the original or early stages were accurate. I haven't seen anyone say that, in fact, other than Chinese state media.

 

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1 minute ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

What are you smoking?  I have NEVER said this wasn't a big deal.  This is a very big deal. Viruses are bad.  I didn't CALCULATE the numbers for ten million. How about a million?   It's about 100,000 in the US.  They have 4 times the population, are a month ahead of us on the curve and have a population with damaged lungs.   I don't believe their numbers but I'm pretty sure if the real number was half a million some dissident would have sent that information.   

Dissidents have done that. There have been any number of reports leaking out the sides about the bodies being processed and cremated, for example.

 

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8 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

January 24h we didn't know anything.  The Chinese had just gone to the extraordinary measure of quarantining 40 million people and Trump was being supportive and at the same time drafting a plan a few days later to restrict travel from China.  

Because he cared more about the trade deal and relationship with Xi Jinping (and Kim, Putin, Erdogan, MBS) than hundreds or thousands or millions of Chinese people.  His only concern would be about their ability to buy pork, corn and soybeans from Iowa farmers, rather than Brazilian....or Wisconsin dairy products.

Two big, wonderful, beautiful oceans.  We have the best oceans, the best borders.   That was enough protection.   It worked largely through two World Wars, right?

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15 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Other countries have figured this out and had done so by March. You come into South Korea or Hong Kong, they test you on site, you moved to a stable location where they hold you for a few hours while they wait for test results, you get a GPS monitor and instructions to quarantine yourself for 14 days. You violate that, you get arrested and fined and that's what the GPS tracker is for. 

And the fact that we haven't dealt with it really at all...is going to produce WAY more economic disruption here, because we couldn't get the number of cases down. We're just going to "live with it" to quote my state's governor today, and in that situation, as many people will stay at home as humanly possible, saving as much money as they can. 

Most Asian airports that I have gone to have always had those heat sensing stations and a lot of the populations already wearing masks.  You could say we should have started this after Swine flu when Obama was president but that might seem political.  Anyway I think this is an incredible lesson for us to learn for the future and I think for the remnants of us alive once this thing is gone we will rise up and rebuild a new greater nation.  

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16 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

You keep talking about don’t play politics, yet you’re relying on evidence that you simply don’t possess about China.

Come here and look at the locked gates that are still up 4 months later blocking off every residential community from main streets.

Retesting millions five months later when we have under 20 asymptomatic cases.   The cost is down to $32 (all government subsidized) for the nucleic acid and pharyngeal swabs.  How much at those private testing labs without  health insurance, $300-500, roughly?

Does everyone in the entire country have an app tracking/tracing contacts with infected?   Green, yellow and red run by algorithm and tracked by GPS. One infected person gets on a bus, the entire bus or subway train is quarantined?

Quarantine hotels/convention centers for people before they’re showing symptoms and admitted to hospitals....then 14 day quarantines away from family after clearing?   Tracking devices on bracelets or ankles are being used in the US?  Thousands of dollars in fines or mandatory jail time for breaking quarantine (only about 15-20 people in Hawaii so far.)

Blocking off entire provinces from each other for months on end...with checkpoint after checkpoint after checkpoint on highways.

All food deliveries with printed temp checks of every worker from cook to delivery guy...3-5 involved at each step of the process.

People literally locked into their apartments.   Heavy fines for spitting or infecting others if you knowingly went outside while sick.  Nobody could go out for 4-6 weeks, all food ordered online and delivered.  Other than that time period, just one person every two days who was temp checked and had to sign in and out with national ID card.

People incentivized by the govnt for reporting “suspicious or potentially” sick people to the police or neighborhood association.  People rounded up by the police for trying to buy medicine from pharmacies or turned away from hospitals because they were sick but no space available....so many ended up dying undiagnosed at home (60% undercount).

Quarantined 80% of cases inside of one province....brought literally every single infectious disease specialist, mobilized nurses and most experienced doctors from Shanghai, Beijing, Army medical teams, built two mobile hospitals in 10-14 days to quarantine the 2000+ most critical patients away from everyone else, delivery after delivery of PPE through the airport that was shut down and dedicated solely to pandemic logistics.

Entire city locked down from Jan 23 until April 8th.  KG out for an entire eight months.   Most primary/elementary and middle school students still not back, only 9th and 12th because they have national exams which have been pushed back to July for the first time in history.   You have a culture where grandparents, aunt/uncles or the neighborhood and apartment complex looks after all the younger kids, allowing parents to work.  Not a single day care exists.   If anything, people are working an extra 4-6 hours per day at home compared to reporting to the office...on call literally 24 hours per day, because the boss always knew you were at home and would send messages throughout the night expecting an immediate response.

 

 

I appreciate you being there at the epicenter...and we all pray for you Caulfied.  I've been to China many times and I'm familiar with the totalitarian state.   I'm sure they have Hubei completely locked down.  But there are 65 cities in China with more than a million people.  Hundreds of thousands left Wuhan on crowded planes, buses and trains to every region of China.  There are 13 cities in China with more people than NYC and NYC has 25,000 dead.  Something is missing.  

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3 minutes ago, NorthSideSox72 said:

Dissidents have done that. There have been any number of reports leaking out the sides about the bodies being processed and cremated, for example.

 

For the perhaps the tenth time here, AP and Reuters reported 42,500 urns at the time of Qingming Festival, which literally means tomb sweeping/cleaning.

Conservative websites went by some theoretical satellite imagery with sulphur dioxide in the air.

The numbers in that first 4-6 weeks were undoubtedly 60-80% to even 100% off because the hospitals were overrun and many older people died at home....there was no bus or taxi or subway, they were all shut down and shortages of ambulances.  Only private cars could get you there, which are only owned by 15-20% of population.   It was also miserable, cold rainy winter weather at that time.  Many got sick going out in in the rain and returning home after being turned away from hospitals, yet thrir time waiting had exposed them and eventually entire families.

If you count the number of normal deaths over a 3+ month timespan in NYC, you would end up with roughly 30,000-32,5000 “expected” or naturally predictable deaths.   Once again, everyone was take away immediately be teams in haz mat suits, no funerals, they were all immediately cremated and ashes put in storage.

So those 42,500 urns were there to take the ashes that had been piling up in crematoriums (we have just 2-3 major ones that deal with the entire city) for three plus months before the urns could be interred and people could actually go out for the first time.

So sure, instead of 4000 reported Covid-19 deaths....8-12,000 is definitely possible, but the same story applies to Italy, Spain, UK, France and the US undercounts as well.

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25 minutes ago, NorthSideSox72 said:

Yes, math. Go see my original posts. You forgot the whole time thing.

 

For the record, he didn't "shut down" anything. His China "ban" stopped less than half the travel between them. His Europe "ban" included only parts of Europe, leaving out the UK and other countries that were heavily infected. They were visual moves, not ones that actually accomplished anything. And he did essentially nothing stateside until March, and even then never took anything resembling real actions.

People are going after you because you are defending the indefensible. No one is saying the virus is Trump's fault, no one is saying China is without blame, and no one is saying that the entire situation is on Trump's lap. None are true. They are saying that his lack of leadership and any kind of meaningful action, during a period when most other countries in a similar position were taking far more decisive action. Trump's response was, and has been, an abject failure.

Worth noting too: I've voted in seven Presidential elections so far, and voted for only three democrats (three GOP, 1 3rd party). I also tend more Republican for state offices here in Illinois. So this is not coming from some dyed in the wool Democrat.

 

Spain, Italy, France, UK, Sweden, Belgium, Canada all have more deaths per capita than the US.  So to suggest we are the only ones stumbling in the dark on this thing is just wrong.  As I wrote earlier...we are also uniquely positioned to have it hit us hardly.  Seems like the villains in this drama are 1) China  2) CDC, 3) WHO (for getting billions in funding over the years and being completely flat footed on this).  If you want to put Trump and other EU leaders up there...fine.   

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46 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Because they shut the entire region down using their army and police force for 2 months starting in January and made it a point to disinfect everything they could in order to get it under control 

If only we had first hand accounts of this, on this very thread. Oh well.

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1 hour ago, greg775 said:

Everything is so political. It's so tiring. Democrats and Republicans have never totally despised each other like this before. It's utter hatred. Everything is about politics. Sad.

And you’re just noticing this now? Where have you been? Bipartisanship, moderates and reasonable people are no more. It can’t happen with Trump in office, his base believing in whatever facts they want to believe in and money in politicians coffers pulling the strings.

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7 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

I appreciate you being there at the epicenter...and we all pray for you Caulfied.  I've been to China many times and I'm familiar with the totalitarian state.   I'm sure they have Hubei completely locked down.  But there are 65 cities in China with more than a million people.  Hundreds of thousands left Wuhan on crowded planes, buses and trains to every region of China.  There are 13 cities in China with more people than NYC and NYC has 25,000 dead.  Something is missing.  

And they did the same in Beijing and Shanghai, especially to protect the capitol.  Months later, airplanes were still diverted to other cities despite the completion of yet another massive airport...there were about 12-13 second tier airports where if you wanted to eventually enter Beijing, you started off with a 14 day quarantine outside in another city...and perhaps even went through another quarantine upon entering the city.

 

At any rate, all these things will eventually come out in public/international investigations...but don’t particularly lead to any bipartisan solutions or trust right now in the US.    As far as MSM vs. Conservative Media, Benghazi and the email servers/“lock her up” are child’s play compared to the treatment Obama or Biden would get from Fox if the situations were reversed.   Very few read newspapers anymore.  Fox always outdraws CNN and MSNBC.   And Trump has about 6-8x as much money as Biden now.   Ironic, because he won in 2016 spending about 15-20% as much as the Clinton campaign. 

 

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https://www.chicagotribune.com/coronavirus/ct-nw-trump-hydroxychloroquine-coronavirus-20200518-iht67oldlfhrnlju7dy4tkiad4-story.html
 

So, is he full of hot air or is he actually taking the drug?

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/18/podcasts/the-daily/economy-coronavirus-jobs-layoffs.html

Also, should congress pass a bill for more money to save the economy? Jerome Powell seems to think so even if republicans in Congress don’t all think so. It makes me wonder if Trump will go after Biden saying there isn’t going to be money for his proposals even though Trump has added to the national deficit, going against what traditional conservatives believe.

 

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10 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Spain, Italy, France, UK, Sweden, Belgium, Canada all have more deaths per capita than the US.  So to suggest we are the only ones stumbling in the dark on this thing is just wrong.  As I wrote earlier...we are also uniquely positioned to have it hit us hardly.  Seems like the villains in this drama are 1) China  2) CDC, 3) WHO (for getting billions in funding over the years and being completely flat footed on this).  If you want to put Trump and other EU leaders up there...fine.   

Criticizing your own CDC is like Joe Scarborough going on twitter to criticize Mika and Willie Geist.   There’s a direct line from Trump to Redfield.  He appointed a political hack who just happened to have DR. in front of his name.   You can say the same thing for Alex Azar at HHS.

 


https://www.ft.com/content/97dc7de6-940b-11ea-abcd-371e24b679ed

It was Trump who chose Robert Redfield to head the CDC in spite of widespread warnings about the former military officer’s controversial record. Redfield led the Pentagon’s response to HIV-Aids in the 1980s. It involved isolating suspected soldiers in so-called HIV Hotels. Many who tested positive were dishonourably discharged. Some committed suicide. A devout catholic, Redfield saw Aids as the product of an immoral society. For many years, he championed a much-hyped remedy that was discredited in tests. That debacle led to his removal from the job in 1994. 

One of the CDC’s constraints was to insist on developing its own test rather than import a foreign one. Dr Anthony Fauci – the infectious disease expert and now household name – is widely known to loathe Redfield, and vice versa. That meant the CDC and Fauci’s National Institutes of Health were not on the same page. “The last thing you need is scientists fighting with each other in the middle of an epidemic,” says Dr Kenneth Bernard, who set up a previous White House pandemic unit in 2004, which was scrapped under Barack Obama and later revived after Ebola struck in 2014.

The scarcity of kits meant that the scientists lacked a picture of America’s rapidly spreading infections. The CDC was forced to ration tests to “persons under investigation” – people who had come within 6ft of someone who had either visited China or been infected with Covid-19 in the previous 14 days. Most were denied. Few could prove that they had met either criterion. This was at a time when several countries, notably Germany, Taiwan and South Korea, gave access to on-the-spot tests, including at drive-through centres – an option most Americans still lack.


Advising Trump was like ‘bringing fruits to the volcano . . . You’re trying to appease a great force that’s impervious to reason’

An administration official

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7 minutes ago, The Beast said:

https://www.chicagotribune.com/coronavirus/ct-nw-trump-hydroxychloroquine-coronavirus-20200518-iht67oldlfhrnlju7dy4tkiad4-story.html
 

So, is he full of hot air or is he actually taking the drug?

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/18/podcasts/the-daily/economy-coronavirus-jobs-layoffs.html

Also, should congress pass a bill for more money to save the economy? Jerome Powell seems to think so even if republicans in Congress don’t all think so. It makes me wonder if Trump will go after Biden saying there isn’t going to be money for his proposals even though Trump has added to the national deficit, going against what traditional conservatives believe.

 

He does want negative interest rates (Trump, not Powell) for the first time in US history.  Not working well in Japan or Germany.

Politically, saying they’ve bankrupted the government so why vote for someone we hamstrung financially is smart politics...the problem is that people are going to begin to demand a better health care alternative to ObamaCare, and the GOP has nothing.  

Except the likelihood of future cuts to Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid and food/nutrition security for the poor (WIC/TANF) and children.   That’s why Trump has lost his huge margins in senior voters.   Covid threat, cost of living threat with 0% Fed rates, health care insurance threat, SS cuts threat....the combination of those four threats, simply killing Trump right now with older Americans and then there’s that trust factor.

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10 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

And they did the same in Beijing and Shanghai, especially to protect the capitol.  Months later, airplanes were still diverted to other cities despite the completion of yet another massive airport...there were about 12-13 second tier airports where if you wanted to eventually enter Beijing, you started off with a 14 day quarantine outside in another city...and perhaps even went through another quarantine upon entering the city.

 

At any rate, all these things will eventually come out in public/international investigations...but don’t particularly lead to any bipartisan solutions or trust right now in the US.    As far as MSM vs. Conservative Media, Benghazi and the email servers/“lock her up” are child’s play compared to the treatment Obama or Biden would get from Fox if the situations were reversed.   Very few read newspapers anymore.  Fox always outdraws CNN and MSNBC.   And Trump has about 6-8x as much money as Biden now.   Ironic, because he won in 2016 spending about 15-20% as much as the Clinton campaign. 

 

That's interesting. It's amazing what a truly totalitarian state can do.   As you rightly say it doesn't offer much guidance to the swirling democracy we live in. 

I'm not sure it's fair to say "well if it would have been Obama it would have been worse."  I'm ideologically opposite of most of where President Obama stood...but I always thought he was elected and had a right to try and truly was good-hearted in his attempts at doing things I disagreed with.  Sure Fox news had negative stuff on him but only 30% of it was shrill.   But 90% of all news articles about Trump have been negative.  It's exhausting.  Honestly everything he's done has not been horrible. His responses to this virus have not been horrible.  But it seems there is no sense reason on the other side.  I used to love the Sunday political talk shows...not for the canned politicians reciting their talking points...but the moderators and talking heads dissecting the events.  Smart guys thinking and saying smart things in opposition but well thought out. Now it is just who can howl the loudest Trump hate.  

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Just now, michelangelosmonkey said:

That's interesting. It's amazing what a truly totalitarian state can do.   As you rightly say it doesn't offer much guidance to the swirling democracy we live in. 

I'm not sure it's fair to say "well if it would have been Obama it would have been worse."  I'm ideologically opposite of most of where President Obama stood...but I always thought he was elected and had a right to try and truly was good-hearted in his attempts at doing things I disagreed with.  Sure Fox news had negative stuff on him but only 30% of it was shrill.   But 90% of all news articles about Trump have been negative.  It's exhausting.  Honestly everything he's done has not been horrible. His responses to this virus have not been horrible.  But it seems there is no sense reason on the other side.  I used to love the Sunday political talk shows...not for the canned politicians reciting their talking points...but the moderators and talking heads dissecting the events.  Smart guys thinking and saying smart things in opposition but well thought out. Now it is just who can howl the loudest Trump hate.  

OMFG yes they have been this is the definition of a horrible response. 

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13 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Criticizing your own CDC is like Joe Scarborough going on twitter to criticize Mika and Willie Geist.   There’s a direct line from Trump to Redfield.  He appointed a political hack who just happened to have DR. in front of his name.   You can say the same thing for Alex Azar at HHS.

 


https://www.ft.com/content/97dc7de6-940b-11ea-abcd-371e24b679ed

It was Trump who chose Robert Redfield to head the CDC in spite of widespread warnings about the former military officer’s controversial record. Redfield led the Pentagon’s response to HIV-Aids in the 1980s. It involved isolating suspected soldiers in so-called HIV Hotels. Many who tested positive were dishonourably discharged. Some committed suicide. A devout catholic, Redfield saw Aids as the product of an immoral society. For many years, he championed a much-hyped remedy that was discredited in tests. That debacle led to his removal from the job in 1994. 

One of the CDC’s constraints was to insist on developing its own test rather than import a foreign one. Dr Anthony Fauci – the infectious disease expert and now household name – is widely known to loathe Redfield, and vice versa. That meant the CDC and Fauci’s National Institutes of Health were not on the same page. “The last thing you need is scientists fighting with each other in the middle of an epidemic,” says Dr Kenneth Bernard, who set up a previous White House pandemic unit in 2004, which was scrapped under Barack Obama and later revived after Ebola struck in 2014.

The scarcity of kits meant that the scientists lacked a picture of America’s rapidly spreading infections. The CDC was forced to ration tests to “persons under investigation” – people who had come within 6ft of someone who had either visited China or been infected with Covid-19 in the previous 14 days. Most were denied. Few could prove that they had met either criterion. This was at a time when several countries, notably Germany, Taiwan and South Korea, gave access to on-the-spot tests, including at drive-through centres – an option most Americans still lack.


Advising Trump was like ‘bringing fruits to the volcano . . . You’re trying to appease a great force that’s impervious to reason’

An administration official

Come on Caulfield...CDC gets billions every year to prepare for this.  The president has no idea about viruses...he has a multi-billion dollar organization that has been running for decades and a pandemic comes along and the life long veterans that are there...gave this?  Institutions run irrespective of their leaders.  GM can have a bad CEO but the guys throughout the organization still understand cars.  The test launch is an embarrassment.   France has been worse.  UK worse.  Were they too stupid to copy the Koreans too?   The Canadians?   

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35 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Spain, Italy, France, UK, Sweden, Belgium, Canada all have more deaths per capita than the US.  So to suggest we are the only ones stumbling in the dark on this thing is just wrong.  As I wrote earlier...we are also uniquely positioned to have it hit us hardly.  Seems like the villains in this drama are 1) China  2) CDC, 3) WHO (for getting billions in funding over the years and being completely flat footed on this).  If you want to put Trump and other EU leaders up there...fine.   

Actually according to data from the Global Health Security Index, we were the best equipped nation to handle a pandemic.

https://www.statista.com/chart/20629/ability-to-respond-to-an-epidemic-or-pandemic/

Before anyone asks, GHSI is from Johns Hopkins University.

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7 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

OMFG yes they have been this is the definition of a horrible response. 

And those idiots in France...and those Idiots in Spain...and those idiots in Belgium...and those idiots in England...and those idiots in Sweden...if we could only have you as world despot there would have been zero deaths.   

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9 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

And those idiots in France...and those Idiots in Spain...and those idiots in Belgium...and those idiots in England...and those idiots in Sweden...if we could only have you as world despot there would have been zero deaths.   

Frankly yes, several of those countries have done terrible jobs. England was awful, they had the wonderful "let's get to Herd immunity by letting it infect everyone" idea until their universities told them that's going to kill a million citizens. Sweden has had no official lockdowns, so saying they're idiots is describing exactly what we're doing right now. Spain and France got hit hard early, but they've also dropped their case loads down hugely since their peaks, which we have not done. 

There's no reason why the US had to have 100,000 dead people. We could have kept it to a few thousand with appropriate preparation and leadership, maybe even less. 

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29 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Come on Caulfield...CDC gets billions every year to prepare for this.  The president has no idea about viruses...he has a multi-billion dollar organization that has been running for decades and a pandemic comes along and the life long veterans that are there...gave this?  Institutions run irrespective of their leaders.  GM can have a bad CEO but the guys throughout the organization still understand cars.  The test launch is an embarrassment.   France has been worse.  UK worse.  Were they too stupid to copy the Koreans too?   The Canadians?   

Except Trump has completely decapitated the “head of the snake” of the supposed deep state lurking in every agency...and replaced them with political operators.  Even Dr. Birx is perfectly suited for that role, failing to call out the disinfectant/UV comments right away.  Her only success has been getting Trump to reverse his support of the GA reopening.

Last time I checked, UK/Italy/France reached their peaks between 1850-1945.  We spend far more than any country in the world on health care, but across the board outcomes are right in line with our world public education rankings, between late 20’s and mid 30’s.

 

US Inspectors General Fired in last six weeks=4

Covid Deaths in Vietnam, New Zealand, Taiwan and Hong Kong=32

 

Edited by caulfield12

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