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Just now, NorthSideSox72 said:

Not any that are good analogs for the United States. New Zealand did a great job, but I don't think I need to list the reasons why they were in a much different position than the US.

 

You think new zealand is the only country that has outperformed the US?

 

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4 minutes ago, NorthSideSox72 said:

Not any that are good analogs for the United States. New Zealand did a great job, but I don't think I need to list the reasons why they were in a much different position than the US.

 

What about the EU as a whole?

On 6/19/2020 at 11:15 AM, StrangeSox said:

 

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4 minutes ago, NorthSideSox72 said:

Not any that are good analogs for the United States. New Zealand did a great job, but I don't think I need to list the reasons why they were in a much different position than the US.

 

The EU is about as good of an analog for the US as you can get. They're talking about allowing tourism this summer because of the difference between the two areas. 

200622125748-us-eu-coronavirus-compariso

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24 minutes ago, almagest said:

I think that is a valid concern. Hopefully those facilities are smarter about PPE and quarantine procedures, and hopefully their governments have learned their lesson about placing symptomatic people back among the population. If not they should be in deep trouble.

Do you have a source on that? What I find is that nursing homes are still compensated for taking in COVID patients (as of 6/4): https://www.politico.com/news/2020/06/04/states-nursing-homes-coronavirus-302134
 

 

Of all of this completely misunderstood items that have been repeated ad naseum during this crisis, you hit on a really big one.  The whole idea that people are being diagnosed with COVID for profit is a complete misunderstanding of medicare/cade and how their billing works.

First off, no one pays out based on diagnosis except Medicare/cade because they have a predetermined payment schedule that corresponds to illness instead of treatment.  No other insurance does this.  Private insurance and cash patients pay based on actual tests, procedures, and services rendered.  So first off this ONLY applies to people on government services.  #2, is that this total payout number is typically WAY less than what normal insurance payouts would be for the same amount of services rendered for the same requirements from an illness once you factor in what each service would cost individually.  Because of this, A LOT of places refuse to take medicare/cade patients.  Entire medical chains refuse to take patients with this insurance.  My mom is a diagnosed dementia patient, and in a county of 100,000 people, there wasn't a single nursing home facility that would take her even before this. We ended up in the next county to find a facility for just her diagnosis.  In fact there were a total of 2 within a two hour driving range in any direction in the state of Indiana.    In fact the home my mom is in is refusing to take anyone who has COVID and wasn't already in their facility, so the reality is if you got COVID in this part of Indiana, you MIGHT have one facility that would take you if you have government insurance.

This is also typical for doctors offices and non-emergency situations.  Very few will take these patients because they actually get short changed for their services in the long run.  So while the news story is that places are getting PAID to take COVID patients, the reality is the exactly opposite, and their options are incredibly limited.

 

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2 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Of all of this completely misunderstood items that have been repeated ad naseum during this crisis, you hit on a really big one.  The whole idea that people are being diagnosed with COVID for profit is a complete misunderstanding of medicare/cade and how their billing works.

First off, no one pays out based on diagnosis except Medicare/cade because they have a predetermined payment schedule that corresponds to illness instead of treatment.  No other insurance does this.  Private insurance and cash patients pay based on actual tests, procedures, and services rendered.  So first off this ONLY applies to people on government services.  #2, is that this total payout number is typically WAY less than what normal insurance payouts would be for the same amount of services rendered for the same requirements from an illness once you factor in what each service would cost individually.  Because of this, A LOT of places refuse to take medicare/cade patients.  Entire medical chains refuse to take patients with this insurance.  My mom is a diagnosed dementia patient, and in a county of 100,000 people, there wasn't a single nursing home facility that would take her even before this. We ended up in the next county to find a facility for just her diagnosis.  In fact there were a total of 2 within a two hour driving range in any direction in the state of Indiana.    In fact the home my mom is in is refusing to take anyone who has COVID and wasn't already in their facility, so the reality is if you got COVID in this part of Indiana, you MIGHT have one facility that would take you if you have government insurance.

This is also typical for doctors offices and non-emergency situations.  Very few will take these patients because they actually get short changed for their services in the long run.  So while the news story is that places are getting PAID to take COVID patients, the reality is the exactly opposite, and their options are incredibly limited.

 

This link isn't talking about a diagnosis, this is for taking infected patients into their nursing homes.

Edited by almagest

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They're trying to do that as a pressure relief valve on hospitals. What's the solution if there are no more hospital beds?

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Just now, almagest said:

This link isn't talking about a diagnosis, this is for taking patients into their nursing homes.

That's the whole point.  Almost every single home in a range of about 10 counties won't touch a patient who has this insurance even without a COIVD diagnosis. Now WITH COVID, there are even less that will take them.

The misrepresentation of this has become some talking point on right wing news, but it isn't as easy as you think.  This is why in the early stages NY state was forcing homes to take COVID patients because essentially none were going to be willing to do so.  This so-called payout isn't any incentive, it is a disincentive as most facilities come out way behind unless they literally neglect patients.

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1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

The EU is about as good of an analog for the US as you can get. They're talking about allowing tourism this summer because of the difference between the two areas. 

200622125748-us-eu-coronavirus-compariso

Need to update this chart for our new record! 36k cases nationwide today.

 

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1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

That's the whole point.  Almost every single home in a range of about 10 counties won't touch a patient who has this insurance even without a COIVD diagnosis. Now WITH COVID, there are even less that will take them.

The misrepresentation of this has become some talking point on right wing news, but it isn't as easy as you think.  This is why in the early stages NY state was forcing homes to take COVID patients because essentially none were going to be willing to do so.  This so-called payout isn't any incentive, it is a disincentive as most facilities come out way behind unless they literally neglect patients.

If they're not taking COVID patients it's not only because they have insurance that won't pay out sufficiently to care for these patients (and honestly that's a whole other can of words), it's also because they know that they can't adequately protect their residents. That's a good thing. Introducing an incentive to take them will have the opposite effect you'd want - see the poorly run homes referenced in the article.

Also, why weren't the field hospitals used for these patients? They were pretty universally underutilized and were largely shut down because of it. We also know what happens with any infectious virus in closed ecosystems so isolating the most at-risk group somewhere makes sense.

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10 minutes ago, almagest said:

If they're not taking COVID patients it's not only because they have insurance that won't pay out sufficiently to care for these patients (and honestly that's a whole other can of words), it's also because they know that they can't adequately protect their residents. That's a good thing. Introducing an incentive to take them will have the opposite effect you'd want - see the poorly run homes referenced in the article.

Also, why weren't the field hospitals used for these patients? They were pretty universally underutilized and were largely shut down because of it. We also know what happens with any infectious virus in closed ecosystems so isolating the most at-risk group somewhere makes sense.

Money is always the biggest factor.  Like I said this whole mass payout thing is not accurate at all.  That's why only poorly run homes will take them, because they need the money.

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1 hour ago, bmags said:

You think new zealand is the only country that has outperformed the US?

 

What does "Crush the virus" mean to you? To me that means (and I assumed you meant) "completely eliminate". The only country at that point to my knowledge is NZ.

Regardless of the number of countries under complete lockdown with next to no cases and no major infection explosions, we'll still need to watch their economic health for a long time after this because other places will have levels of immunity and they won't. They'll constantly be at risk of infection until this virus completely burns out in the rest of the world. To me this means potentially years of lockdown measures for them.

I don't know when the narrative shifted from "sensible measures to prevent hospitals from being overwhelmed" to "complete eradication of this virus" but that's been really concerning to me. One makes sense, the other is complete fantasy.

The EU's recent numbers are encouraging but A) total cases and deaths may no longer correlate the same way they did earlier in the infection spread due to the different risk groups being affected and B) They got absolutely hammered in Spain and Italy in the same at-risk populations we did and Europe as a whole was ahead of our infection explosion so I would expect them to have less cases overall at this point.

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3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Money is always the biggest factor.  Like I said this whole mass payout thing is not accurate at all.  That's why only poorly run homes will take them, because they need the money.

And it's a terrible solution with a predictable outcome because of this exact reason.

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14 minutes ago, almagest said:

And it's a terrible solution with a predictable outcome because of this exact reason.

Much like everything done by this administration with COVID. 

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6 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Much like everything done by this administration with COVID. 

There are government failures top to bottom. Trying to turn this into a partisan issue does not help.

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10 minutes ago, almagest said:

There are government failures top to bottom. Trying to turn this into a partisan issue does not help.

It IS a largely partisan issue.  One party is actively trying to sabotage this situation by disseminating information like you were quoting early.

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2 hours ago, bmags said:

You think new zealand is the only country that has outperformed the US?

 

 

2 hours ago, StrangeSox said:

 

What about the EU as a whole?

 

2 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

The EU is about as good of an analog for the US as you can get. They're talking about allowing tourism this summer because of the difference between the two areas. 

200622125748-us-eu-coronavirus-compariso

 

What do the three of you think I was saying? I never said other countries didn't do better - that would be absurd. In fact MOST countries with modern health care have done better than the US. Go look at what I was responding to - the statement about "Crush the virus", which I take to mean make it nearly non-existent. That is not a reasonable or attainable goal in the US short of locking literally everyone in their homes 24/7 no matter what for a few weeks.

 

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But public health experts who supported the original shutdowns now worry that governments will not be able to constrain the resurgent coronavirus with a blizzard of shifting restrictions that can change the moment a person crosses a city limit or state line.

Hundreds of city, county and state governments have created their own reopening plans, each with different “phases” of economic reopening and each with their rules for how many people can gather at a party, what portion of a restaurant’s tables can be full and when people must wear masks. The results can be a baffling patchwork, and one that residents are left to navigate on their own.

nytimes.com

 

Texas Gov. Greg Abbott (R) is imploring residents to stay home as the state grapples with a surge in coronavirus cases and hospitalizations stemming from the disease. 

In an interview Tuesday with local CBS affiliate KBTX-TV, Abbott said Texas would report more than 5,000 cases of COVID-19 from the previous 24-hour period, marking a new high in the state. He added that hospitalizations were also at an all-time high, stressing that the outbreak is "serious."

"First, we want to make sure that everyone reinforces the best safe practices of wearing a mask, hand sanitization, maintaining safe distance, but importantly, because the spread is so rampant right now, there’s never a reason for you to have to leave your home," Abbott said.  “Unless you do need to go out, the safest place for you is at your home."

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/504203-texas-governor-urges-residents-to-stay-home-as-state-reports-new-high-in

 

It’s perfectly understandable why some would now prefer to discuss the determined protection of statues compared to the suddenly “re-relevant“ health care crisis.   Of course, if we had defended real, living American people in February and early March, we wouldn’t be in such a sheer and utter mess right now.

 

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4 minutes ago, NorthSideSox72 said:

 

 

 

What do the three of you think I was saying? I never said other countries didn't do better - that would be absurd. In fact MOST countries with modern health care have done better than the US. Go look at what I was responding to - the statement about "Crush the virus", which I take to mean make it nearly non-existent. That is not a reasonable or attainable goal in the US short of locking literally everyone in their homes 24/7 no matter what for a few weeks.

 

This is not at all what South Korea, Thailand, Germany, Australia or New Zealand did.

Even Vietnam, HK and Taiwan provided far more freedoms than here in mainland China.

This is almost like jerksticks’ “well, we don’t or can’t be 100% sure about anything so let’s just throw our hands up and trudge right through the unknown” line of thinking.   It doesn’t have to be one extreme or the other...except for the fact that the lack of a coordinated, consensus-driven Federal response has put us in this position.  Even the UK was able to course correct and largely overcome initial missteps.  Why would it be surprising that the US and Brazil have the two most similar political leaders as well as approaches to science (or lack thereof) and coronavirus debacles on their hands?
 

 

Brazil's president Jair Bolsonaro has been ordered by a federal judge in Brasilia to wear a face mask in public or face a fine. 

Federal Judge Renato Borelli issued a decision Monday, saying Bolsonaro must wear a mask when circulating in public in Brasilia. The judge's order said failure to do so could potentially lead to a fine of up around $386 per day.

The decision extends to all government employees in the Federal District, where the capital Brasilia is located.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/23/americas/brazil-bolsonaro-coronavirus-mask-intl/index.html

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26 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

It IS a largely partisan issue.  One party is actively trying to sabotage this situation by disseminating information like you were quoting early.

How is "bad nursing homes get money for COVID patients" or "governors of some states made indefensible decisions to send COVID positive people to nursing homes" a republican plant to discredit democrats? I've seen some amazing mental gymnastics in defense of "republican bad democrat good" tribalism but this one is something else.

Edited by almagest

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 There were more new cases of Covid 19 reported today in the US than ever before. 
 

Must be fake news. The Trump administration destroyed the coronavirus.

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