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COVID-19/Coronavirus thread

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Just now, almagest said:

This link isn't talking about a diagnosis, this is for taking patients into their nursing homes.

That's the whole point.  Almost every single home in a range of about 10 counties won't touch a patient who has this insurance even without a COIVD diagnosis. Now WITH COVID, there are even less that will take them.

The misrepresentation of this has become some talking point on right wing news, but it isn't as easy as you think.  This is why in the early stages NY state was forcing homes to take COVID patients because essentially none were going to be willing to do so.  This so-called payout isn't any incentive, it is a disincentive as most facilities come out way behind unless they literally neglect patients.

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1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

The EU is about as good of an analog for the US as you can get. They're talking about allowing tourism this summer because of the difference between the two areas. 

200622125748-us-eu-coronavirus-compariso

Need to update this chart for our new record! 36k cases nationwide today.

 

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1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

That's the whole point.  Almost every single home in a range of about 10 counties won't touch a patient who has this insurance even without a COIVD diagnosis. Now WITH COVID, there are even less that will take them.

The misrepresentation of this has become some talking point on right wing news, but it isn't as easy as you think.  This is why in the early stages NY state was forcing homes to take COVID patients because essentially none were going to be willing to do so.  This so-called payout isn't any incentive, it is a disincentive as most facilities come out way behind unless they literally neglect patients.

If they're not taking COVID patients it's not only because they have insurance that won't pay out sufficiently to care for these patients (and honestly that's a whole other can of words), it's also because they know that they can't adequately protect their residents. That's a good thing. Introducing an incentive to take them will have the opposite effect you'd want - see the poorly run homes referenced in the article.

Also, why weren't the field hospitals used for these patients? They were pretty universally underutilized and were largely shut down because of it. We also know what happens with any infectious virus in closed ecosystems so isolating the most at-risk group somewhere makes sense.

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10 minutes ago, almagest said:

If they're not taking COVID patients it's not only because they have insurance that won't pay out sufficiently to care for these patients (and honestly that's a whole other can of words), it's also because they know that they can't adequately protect their residents. That's a good thing. Introducing an incentive to take them will have the opposite effect you'd want - see the poorly run homes referenced in the article.

Also, why weren't the field hospitals used for these patients? They were pretty universally underutilized and were largely shut down because of it. We also know what happens with any infectious virus in closed ecosystems so isolating the most at-risk group somewhere makes sense.

Money is always the biggest factor.  Like I said this whole mass payout thing is not accurate at all.  That's why only poorly run homes will take them, because they need the money.

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1 hour ago, bmags said:

You think new zealand is the only country that has outperformed the US?

 

What does "Crush the virus" mean to you? To me that means (and I assumed you meant) "completely eliminate". The only country at that point to my knowledge is NZ.

Regardless of the number of countries under complete lockdown with next to no cases and no major infection explosions, we'll still need to watch their economic health for a long time after this because other places will have levels of immunity and they won't. They'll constantly be at risk of infection until this virus completely burns out in the rest of the world. To me this means potentially years of lockdown measures for them.

I don't know when the narrative shifted from "sensible measures to prevent hospitals from being overwhelmed" to "complete eradication of this virus" but that's been really concerning to me. One makes sense, the other is complete fantasy.

The EU's recent numbers are encouraging but A) total cases and deaths may no longer correlate the same way they did earlier in the infection spread due to the different risk groups being affected and B) They got absolutely hammered in Spain and Italy in the same at-risk populations we did and Europe as a whole was ahead of our infection explosion so I would expect them to have less cases overall at this point.

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3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Money is always the biggest factor.  Like I said this whole mass payout thing is not accurate at all.  That's why only poorly run homes will take them, because they need the money.

And it's a terrible solution with a predictable outcome because of this exact reason.

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14 minutes ago, almagest said:

And it's a terrible solution with a predictable outcome because of this exact reason.

Much like everything done by this administration with COVID. 

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6 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Much like everything done by this administration with COVID. 

There are government failures top to bottom. Trying to turn this into a partisan issue does not help.

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10 minutes ago, almagest said:

There are government failures top to bottom. Trying to turn this into a partisan issue does not help.

It IS a largely partisan issue.  One party is actively trying to sabotage this situation by disseminating information like you were quoting early.

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2 hours ago, bmags said:

You think new zealand is the only country that has outperformed the US?

 

 

2 hours ago, StrangeSox said:

 

What about the EU as a whole?

 

2 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

The EU is about as good of an analog for the US as you can get. They're talking about allowing tourism this summer because of the difference between the two areas. 

200622125748-us-eu-coronavirus-compariso

 

What do the three of you think I was saying? I never said other countries didn't do better - that would be absurd. In fact MOST countries with modern health care have done better than the US. Go look at what I was responding to - the statement about "Crush the virus", which I take to mean make it nearly non-existent. That is not a reasonable or attainable goal in the US short of locking literally everyone in their homes 24/7 no matter what for a few weeks.

 

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But public health experts who supported the original shutdowns now worry that governments will not be able to constrain the resurgent coronavirus with a blizzard of shifting restrictions that can change the moment a person crosses a city limit or state line.

Hundreds of city, county and state governments have created their own reopening plans, each with different “phases” of economic reopening and each with their rules for how many people can gather at a party, what portion of a restaurant’s tables can be full and when people must wear masks. The results can be a baffling patchwork, and one that residents are left to navigate on their own.

nytimes.com

 

Texas Gov. Greg Abbott (R) is imploring residents to stay home as the state grapples with a surge in coronavirus cases and hospitalizations stemming from the disease. 

In an interview Tuesday with local CBS affiliate KBTX-TV, Abbott said Texas would report more than 5,000 cases of COVID-19 from the previous 24-hour period, marking a new high in the state. He added that hospitalizations were also at an all-time high, stressing that the outbreak is "serious."

"First, we want to make sure that everyone reinforces the best safe practices of wearing a mask, hand sanitization, maintaining safe distance, but importantly, because the spread is so rampant right now, there’s never a reason for you to have to leave your home," Abbott said.  “Unless you do need to go out, the safest place for you is at your home."

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/504203-texas-governor-urges-residents-to-stay-home-as-state-reports-new-high-in

 

It’s perfectly understandable why some would now prefer to discuss the determined protection of statues compared to the suddenly “re-relevant“ health care crisis.   Of course, if we had defended real, living American people in February and early March, we wouldn’t be in such a sheer and utter mess right now.

 

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4 minutes ago, NorthSideSox72 said:

 

 

 

What do the three of you think I was saying? I never said other countries didn't do better - that would be absurd. In fact MOST countries with modern health care have done better than the US. Go look at what I was responding to - the statement about "Crush the virus", which I take to mean make it nearly non-existent. That is not a reasonable or attainable goal in the US short of locking literally everyone in their homes 24/7 no matter what for a few weeks.

 

This is not at all what South Korea, Thailand, Germany, Australia or New Zealand did.

Even Vietnam, HK and Taiwan provided far more freedoms than here in mainland China.

This is almost like jerksticks’ “well, we don’t or can’t be 100% sure about anything so let’s just throw our hands up and trudge right through the unknown” line of thinking.   It doesn’t have to be one extreme or the other...except for the fact that the lack of a coordinated, consensus-driven Federal response has put us in this position.  Even the UK was able to course correct and largely overcome initial missteps.  Why would it be surprising that the US and Brazil have the two most similar political leaders as well as approaches to science (or lack thereof) and coronavirus debacles on their hands?
 

 

Brazil's president Jair Bolsonaro has been ordered by a federal judge in Brasilia to wear a face mask in public or face a fine. 

Federal Judge Renato Borelli issued a decision Monday, saying Bolsonaro must wear a mask when circulating in public in Brasilia. The judge's order said failure to do so could potentially lead to a fine of up around $386 per day.

The decision extends to all government employees in the Federal District, where the capital Brasilia is located.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/23/americas/brazil-bolsonaro-coronavirus-mask-intl/index.html

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26 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

It IS a largely partisan issue.  One party is actively trying to sabotage this situation by disseminating information like you were quoting early.

How is "bad nursing homes get money for COVID patients" or "governors of some states made indefensible decisions to send COVID positive people to nursing homes" a republican plant to discredit democrats? I've seen some amazing mental gymnastics in defense of "republican bad democrat good" tribalism but this one is something else.

Edited by almagest

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 There were more new cases of Covid 19 reported today in the US than ever before. 
 

Must be fake news. The Trump administration destroyed the coronavirus.

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15 minutes ago, almagest said:

How is "bad nursing homes get money for COVID patients" or "governors of some states made indefensible decisions to send COVID positive people to nursing homes" a republican plant to discredit democrats? I've seen some amazing mental gymnastics in defense of "republican bad democrat good" tribalism but this one is something else.

Who do you think fed you the idea that tons of homes are taking COVID patients for the money, and that is why this is spreading in homes?

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https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/
Sweden, by the way, not exactly bending the curve by any measure.

 

In the very beginning here in Wuhan, the health care system was totally overrun, much like in NYC.

You can blame Cuomo and De Blasio, but the storyline from the White House is that everything was contained because of the supposed shutdown/“sort of ban” of travel from China and lack of breakouts across the West Coast other than Seattle area nursing homes.

The reality is there wasn’t the same warning bell coming from any Federal agency about European travel, the CDC, or even the WHO.
 

In the initial phases, there was also no Javits Center, no USS Comfort, no requisitioning or commandeering of hotels and sports arenas/community centers and unfinished housing projects, as well as the ability to construct two completely brand new facilities in under two weeks.

Once the true severity of the crisis was identified, NY as a state did a very good job...De Blasio at best would be a C-.

What other options were there available besides skilled nursing facilities for demand outstripping supply of hospital beds?  Piling people up in the hallways or turning them away to go back out into the public and eventually home to infect their families/neighborhoods/communities?


It’s the job of the Federal government to analyze and interdict international threats before they reach the shores of the US, as well as international multilateral organizations like the WHO.  To blame NY and NJ for what happened there...well, that’s why they dumped the Articles of Confederation and went back in the direction of Alexander Hamilton’s vision for the new nation. 

 


Cue Bobby Boucher’s mom Kathy Bates in The Waterboy,  Btw, IHME predicted deaths now over 180,000 without nationwide masking, 3X the revised predictions after 8-10 weeks of shutdowns across most of the country.
 

 

Edited by caulfield12

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2 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Who do you think fed you the idea that tons of homes are taking COVID patients for the money, and that is why this is spreading in homes?

You agreed sending sick people to bad nursing homes with a financial incentive was a bad idea so I don't even understand what you're trying to argue here. It's also a non-partisan fact that some governors mandated sick people be sent to nursing homes and that had negative effects until they stopped doing it. How is ANY of this republican sabotage? Democrats make terrible decisions too for heaven's sake.

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48 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

This is not at all what South Korea, Thailand, Germany, Australia or New Zealand did.

Even Vietnam, HK and Taiwan provided far more freedoms than here in mainland China.

This is almost like jerksticks’ “well, we don’t or can’t be 100% sure about anything so let’s just throw our hands up and trudge right through the unknown” line of thinking.   It doesn’t have to be one extreme or the other...except for the fact that the lack of a coordinated, consensus-driven Federal response has put us in this position.  Even the UK was able to course correct and largely overcome initial missteps.  Why would it be surprising that the US and Brazil have the two most similar political leaders as well as approaches to science (or lack thereof) and coronavirus debacles on their hands?
 

 

Brazil's president Jair Bolsonaro has been ordered by a federal judge in Brasilia to wear a face mask in public or face a fine. 

Federal Judge Renato Borelli issued a decision Monday, saying Bolsonaro must wear a mask when circulating in public in Brasilia. The judge's order said failure to do so could potentially lead to a fine of up around $386 per day.

The decision extends to all government employees in the Federal District, where the capital Brasilia is located.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/23/americas/brazil-bolsonaro-coronavirus-mask-intl/index.html

This has never been one of my thoughts on here.  Ever.  Please write a retraction.  
 

I HAVE steadily maintained the position that we have no idea what the asymptomatic and mildly symptomatic rates are.  Without knowing those numbers, anybody on here telling people about death rates, cases and “today’s number of cases” is not using their brain.  Go ahead and use that info to speculate all you want, I’m game for that and will be right there in the trenches with you, but don’t you dare tell me you know what’s going on with COVID based on flimsy flim-flam.


For example, the other day some guy on here was telling people 1 out of every 200 baseball players statistically would die if they all caught Covid, because a chart showed a .5% death rate in 20-69 year olds.   People are shouting that information like it’s fact without even using their brains to say “wait a second, are there some pretty obvious ways this chart is missing some seriously huge data points?”

 


 

 

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