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14 minutes ago, illinilaw08 said:

Colorado hasn't seen a huge spike - though we have seen an uptick - and Polis shut the bars (defined as no food) back down, a mere 12 days after they were reopened (still can do carryout and delivery).

The feds have to step in with some serious additional stimulus.  The choice should be the feds pay businesses to stay closed and workers to stay home (bmags stated it perfectly above) - not we lose businesses that equal 10% of GDP or we have constantly renewing outbreaks.  Extend the $600 UI benefit indefinitely, target direct grants to businesses that have been shutdown, and let's have a national, across the board, strategy for containing the virus going forward.  Because the first try at reopening... hasn't worked.

The government HAS to replace income if they want this to start to put this virus down until a vaccine can be created.

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27 minutes ago, illinilaw08 said:

Colorado hasn't seen a huge spike - though we have seen an uptick - and Polis shut the bars (defined as no food) back down, a mere 12 days after they were reopened (still can do carryout and delivery).

The feds have to step in with some serious additional stimulus.  The choice should be the feds pay businesses to stay closed and workers to stay home (bmags stated it perfectly above) - not we lose businesses that equal 10% of GDP or we have constantly renewing outbreaks.  Extend the $600 UI benefit indefinitely, target direct grants to businesses that have been shutdown, and let's have a national, across the board, strategy for containing the virus going forward.  Because the first try at reopening... hasn't worked.

I think I gave this metaphor yesterday - if you've got businesses open where there can be 25-50 people in a room conversing (eating), it's like playing a game of Yahtzee. Things tick up slowly at first because you're rolling pairs on the die and stuff like that, but then eventually you hit a Yahtzee and suddenly you have a major outbreak. Then, out of that population, the next 50 people are all rolling, and suddenly you get a second Yahtzee out of that group. Then you get another 2 Yahtzees out of the third group.

It starts more slowly than you expect because it burns its way along slowly, one person or two people at a time, until it hits the perfect combination of setting and person who is infectous enough, then it pops. I was genuinely surprised it didn't spike faster in Texas in May, but that's because I wasn't understanding or processing the statistics of those single large bursts being rare, they don't necessarily happen instantly even if you've done something you shouldn't. 

That slow start also has the effect of lulling your governors to sleep, making them think that because they didn't see an immediate spike they can continue opening mroe things. "See everything's fine who's going to apologize to DiSantis", "There's no big surge of cases so we're clear to proceed to Stage 3 of reopening (Abbott did that on June 12)". 

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2 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Who is everyone?  Are you actually suggesting a complete shut-down of all manufacturing and retail operations in the US?  What you want is not even remotely realistic and no CEO is going to remain in his role if he acts in complete disregard to financial performance.  No doubt the health & safety of US workers is important, but so is a functioning economy.  There is a balance to this and you seem way too extreme on labor relation issues to appreciate that.

Also, the manufacturing plant for my business is union based (one of the strongest in the country) and they have worked throughout this pandemic outside of a three week shutdown.  Yes, some people have temporarily elected out over COVID-19 concerns, but the vast majority are working because they want to get paid and feel the safety protocols in place are good enough.  The union did not just scream “unsafe working conditions” and refuse to work like you are suggesting.  They are willing to accept some level of risk because they realize there is no perfect solution here.

Excellent post!

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20 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I think I gave this metaphor yesterday - if you've got businesses open where there can be 25-50 people in a room conversing (eating), it's like playing a game of Yahtzee. Things tick up slowly at first because you're rolling pairs on the die and stuff like that, but then eventually you hit a Yahtzee and suddenly you have a major outbreak. Then, out of that population, the next 50 people are all rolling, and suddenly you get a second Yahtzee out of that group. Then you get another 2 Yahtzees out of the third group.

It starts more slowly than you expect because it burns its way along slowly, one person or two people at a time, until it hits the perfect combination of setting and person who is infectous enough, then it pops. I was genuinely surprised it didn't spike faster in Texas in May, but that's because I wasn't understanding or processing the statistics of those single large bursts being rare, they don't necessarily happen instantly even if you've done something you shouldn't. 

That slow start also has the effect of lulling your governors to sleep, making them think that because they didn't see an immediate spike they can continue opening mroe things. "See everything's fine who's going to apologize to DiSantis", "There's no big surge of cases so we're clear to proceed to Stage 3 of reopening (Abbott did that on June 12)". 


At a May 30 birthday party in Texas, one man reportedly infected 18 friends and family with the coronavirus.

Reading reports like these, you might think of the virus as a wildfire, instantly setting off epidemics wherever it goes. But other reports tell another story altogether.

In Italy, for example, scientists looked at stored samples of wastewater for the earliest trace of the virus. Last week they reported that the virus was in Turin and Milan as early as Dec. 18. But two months would pass before northern Italy’s hospitals began filling with victims of COVID-19. So those December viruses seem to have petered out.

As strange as it may seem, these reports don’t contradict each other. Most infected people don’t pass on the coronavirus to someone else. But a small number pass it on to many others in so-called superspreading events.

“You can think about throwing a match at kindling,” said Ben Althouse, principal research scientist at the Institute for Disease Modeling in Bellevue, Washington. “You throw one match, it may not light the kindling. You throw another match, it may not light the kindling. But then one match hits in the right spot, and all of a sudden the fire goes up.”

Understanding why some matches start fires while many do not will be crucial to curbing the pandemic, scientists say. “Otherwise, you’re in the position where you’re always one step behind the virus,” said Adam Kucharski, an epidemiologist at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/most-people-coronavirus-wont-spread-121034275.html

Why do a few infect so many?  NY Times report on why r-nought numbers have been misleading for spread.

 

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After camping this weekend I would report that no match will light kindling and so we are probably safe.

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2 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

1st bolded-no, not even close. 

2nd bolded-what's good for the employee is good for business. The economy is not a zero-sum game. You can make it bigger. 

I suggest you watch "Saving Capitalism" By Robert Reich. He talks about how there's a cycle of prosperity where everyone gets more, and a cycle of austerity where inequality runs rampant. The economy runs from the bottom up, not the top down. 

The Italics: 

If they feel safe, that's good. The fact they went on strike for 3 weeks to negotiate working conditions is what is supposed to happen. 
 

It's all about what's essential and what isn't. Baseball and other team sports aren't essential, so they shouldn't happen, period. 3 weeks ago I could buy this stuff coming back. Now, no way in hell because the shutdown did nothing. If this pandemic should have taught you anything, it's that the people that get paid the least are the most important workers in our society. How does that make sense? 

1. I don't think it's safe for people(the public) to go into stores though

Retail(including groceries) should be instacart-style or contactless curbside only. Hire people to be package delivery drivers and do contactless/app based delivery. They shouldn't let the public in retail stores, Period. It's not safe for the employees, especially when idiots refuse to wear masks as a political statement. 

2. With regard to manufacturing/food chain issues, they have to spread out more. They absolutely need to keep running, but they should have to space people out 2-3 times more than they are. No being packed into a plant like sardines. My thoughts are that they need to cut the number of workers in per shift in by 1/2 to 2/3 for safety purposes. Everyone keeps their  job and benefits, just work fewer hours. 
 

3. I'm not suggesting a full shutdown, but I think phase 1 is the furthest that I'd go at this point, and even some of those protocols don't go far enough. 

It's fairly obvious that opening businesses is hazardous to your health. Anyone who can do commerce online, should. you can pass the shipping costs out to the consumer. The bigger issue is people cannot be trusted to police themselves in the US. 

There's always going  to be some risk, but the amount of risk that people are asked to take is way too much imo.  Also, I question the safety of public transit so that opens an entirely different can of worms. The thing is minimizing the amount of people in one place at one time, and who is allowed in and who isn't.  

It seems like this thing is really contagious indoors, but significantly less so outdoors. We need the entire country, all 50 states to get on board with this plan otherwise it's going to get out of control for the foreseeable future. 

The union didn’t go on strike for three weeks, our company decided to shut-down plant operations to evaluate the situation and implement stronger safety measures.  Believe it or not, but safety is a key part of most company’s strategic priorities.

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1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

The union didn’t go on strike for three weeks, our company decided to shut-down plant operations to evaluate the situation and implement stronger safety measures.  Believe it or not, but safety is a key part of most company’s strategic priorities.

I love how easy it is for many to tell people to go into work and take risks; no businesses bottom line is worth the life of someone else. Period. End of Story. Why is the virus is killing far more minorities and lower income people? Because they have shit work and safety conditions in meat processing plants and other factories. It's despicable.

Why do they HAVE to go to work while so many American's are furloughed or working from home? Because their jobs are deemed essential by you, and the government and etc. ESSENTIAL WORKERS who frequently don't have health care, don't make much more than minimum wage, and certainly don't have paid time off. These people have to work because if they don't work, they won't have a house over their head or food on the table for their kids.

I was lucky enough to work from home for quite a while, and then we just closed until who knows when because Chicago isn't really open and there's really not business even if some exists. It sucks being out of work - never been in my life - but it sure as hell beats being poor and forced to go take risks you shouldn't have to.

I know the virus isn't very dangerous the many, but the poor people that are being forced to work? Well they tend to live together as a family unit in one house - with more at risk people around them. They don't have the choice, and you acting like some strong union proves that the system is fine is laughable to me.

No one should have to sacrifice their life or risk the life of their relatives (you only live once in case you didn't notice) so that you can feel more comfortable in your bed at night or at the grocery store. And you better believe if you think their jobs are so damn important that they should put themselves at higher risk than the average American, than they should be compensated accordingly.

It's really sad to me that people feel like they have to go to work right now because if they don't, they'll lose their job, or house or life. The system stopped working long about but it was never on display more than when people started citing the importance of the economy as the death toll climbed.

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5 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Who is everyone?  Are you actually suggesting a complete shut-down of all manufacturing and retail operations in the US?  What you want is not even remotely realistic and no CEO is going to remain in his role if he acts in complete disregard to financial performance.  No doubt the health & safety of US workers is important, but so is a functioning economy.  There is a balance to this and you seem way too extreme on labor relation issues to appreciate that.

Also, the manufacturing plant for my business is union based (one of the strongest in the country) and they have worked throughout this pandemic outside of a three week shutdown.  Yes, some people have temporarily elected out over COVID-19 concerns, but the vast majority are working because they want to get paid and feel the safety protocols in place are good enough.  The union did not just scream “unsafe working conditions” and refuse to work like you are suggesting.  They are willing to accept some level of risk because they realize there is no perfect solution here.

This type of commentary makes me want to stab my eyes out.

I said this three months ago on this very forum, but the move the country should have made three months ago was to shut down the entire country for 6 weeks. Take care of whoever absolutely had to work - support the workers and companies with a massive stimulus that actually works for small business and all employed people - by getting them access to all the testing and equipment possible. The rest of the nation is closed; the virus would have dissipated and could have been traced/reduced. When you reopened, the economy would have taken a bit to recover, but the recovery would have happened much sooner.

I'm not sure what people are watching, but the virus is getting awful again and places are shutting down again, it's just a matter of time before that is everywhere. The confidence in a V shaped recovery is gone. Some states - so worried about a FUNCTIONING economy - reopened way too early and way to lax and now the economy in those states is going to be crushed for another month or two. In 30 days the extended unemployment benefits run out, and 40 million are still out of work and it's going to get even worse as states are forced to shut down a second time but this time there is no unemployment enhancements, there is no PPP. No more mortgage or rent forgiveness. There is no one helping those people anymore, but the virus isn't going away. Of the 40 million that lost their jobs, about 25 million lost their insurance with it. I'm sad and fearful for all those people, and the answer many who aren't at risk have is - those are the breaks, "you gotta take risks in life."

Frankly CWS, I'm sick and tired of the poor people in this nation biting the bullet and sacrificing their ass without any help or assistance from people like us - I've been tired of it for a long damn time, and this pandemic just made it that much worse. No person, out of desperation and fear of homelessness, should have to provide me with a damn thing just so I can go on about my life in a convenient and blinded way.

Edited by Look at Ray Ray Run
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4 hours ago, illinilaw08 said:

Colorado hasn't seen a huge spike - though we have seen an uptick - and Polis shut the bars (defined as no food) back down, a mere 12 days after they were reopened (still can do carryout and delivery).

The feds have to step in with some serious additional stimulus.  The choice should be the feds pay businesses to stay closed and workers to stay home (bmags stated it perfectly above) - not we lose businesses that equal 10% of GDP or we have constantly renewing outbreaks.  Extend the $600 UI benefit indefinitely, target direct grants to businesses that have been shutdown, and let's have a national, across the board, strategy for containing the virus going forward.  Because the first try at reopening... hasn't worked.

This & lets have a mandatory federal mask order in place. 

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1 hour ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

This type of commentary makes me want to stab my eyes out.

I said this three months ago on this very forum, but the move the country should have made three months ago was to shut down the entire country for 6 weeks. Take care of whoever absolutely had to work - support the workers and companies with a massive stimulus that actually works for small business and all employed people - by getting them access to all the testing and equipment possible. The rest of the nation is closed; the virus would have dissipated and could have been traced/reduced. When you reopened, the economy would have taken a bit to recover, but the recovery would have happened much sooner.

I'm not sure what people are watching, but the virus is getting awful again and places are shutting down again, it's just a matter of time before that is everywhere. The confidence in a V shaped recovery is gone. Some states - so worried about a FUNCTIONING economy - reopened way too early and way to lax and now the economy in those states is going to be crushed for another month or two. In 30 days the extended unemployment benefits run out, and 40 million are still out of work and it's going to get even worse as states are forced to shut down a second time but this time there is no unemployment enhancements, there is no PPP. No more mortgage or rent forgiveness. There is no one helping those people anymore, but the virus isn't going away. Of the 40 million that lost their jobs, about 25 million lost their insurance with it. I'm sad and fearful for all those people, and the answer many who aren't at risk have is - those are the breaks, "you gotta take risks in life."

Frankly CWS, I'm sick and tired of the poor people in this nation biting the bullet and sacrificing their ass without any help or assistance from people like us - I've been tired of it for a long damn time, and this pandemic just made it that much worse. No person, out of desperation and fear of homelessness, should have to provide me with a damn thing just so I can go on about my life in a convenient and blinded way.

Thanks Ray Ray....I'm with ya. You can't put a dollar amount on human life. The fact that we are doing so as a nation is disgusting and disgraceful. I'm starting to believe our culture is ethically bankrupt. 

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6 hours ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

I am glad I am working lol.. God please no more unions

This is an awful take. At both companies I've worked, I've been around for a failed unionization process and a currently underway unionization process.

The failed one would have saved dozens of jobs over the years (including mine), but being a company filled with young, easily influenced go-getters, the company lawyers easily crushed our unionization effort.

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26 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Thanks Ray Ray....I'm with ya. You can't put a dollar amount on human life. The fact that we are doing so as a nation is disgusting and disgraceful. I'm starting to believe our culture is ethically bankrupt. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Requiem_for_the_American_Dream
Chomsky is better than Robert Reich on this, who’s still essentially a centrist leaning progressively but not attempting to completely deconstruct the entire foundation or system.

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5 minutes ago, Quin said:

This is an awful take. At both companies I've worked, I've been around for a failed unionization process and a currently underway unionization process.

The failed one would have saved dozens of jobs over the years (including mine), but being a company filled with young, easily influenced go-getters, the company lawyers easily crushed our unionization effort.

Why should it be surprising?

In the 1950’s and 60’s, US manufacturing was over 40% of GDP and banks/finance was around 10%.

Now, we no longer build anything.

Those numbers have completely reversed since the early 80’s.

And yes, Clinton/Rubin played a significant role, but where were the complaints from the S&P 500 companies?   The stock market, CEO’s and consumers made out like bandits, for the majority of workers in labor unions, not so much.

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15 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Requiem_for_the_American_Dream
Chomsky is better than Robert Reich on this, who’s still essentially a centrist leaning progressively but not attempting to completely deconstruct the entire foundation or system.

Yeah, Reich is more mainstream so I use him. 

I don't expect everyone to have views like my own. 

Have you ever read Chris Hedges? He makes really good points but is super depressing. He believes that the dystopian future is reality. 

Edited by Jack Parkman

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2 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I love how easy it is for many to tell people to go into work and take risks; no businesses bottom line is worth the life of someone else. Period. End of Story. Why is the virus is killing far more minorities and lower income people? Because they have shit work and safety conditions in meat processing plants and other factories. It's despicable.

Why do they HAVE to go to work while so many American's are furloughed or working from home? Because their jobs are deemed essential by you, and the government and etc. ESSENTIAL WORKERS who frequently don't have health care, don't make much more than minimum wage, and certainly don't have paid time off. These people have to work because if they don't work, they won't have a house over their head or food on the table for their kids.

I was lucky enough to work from home for quite a while, and then we just closed until who knows when because Chicago isn't really open and there's really not business even if some exists. It sucks being out of work - never been in my life - but it sure as hell beats being poor and forced to go take risks you shouldn't have to.

I know the virus isn't very dangerous the many, but the poor people that are being forced to work? Well they tend to live together as a family unit in one house - with more at risk people around them. They don't have the choice, and you acting like some strong union proves that the system is fine is laughable to me.

No one should have to sacrifice their life or risk the life of their relatives (you only live once in case you didn't notice) so that you can feel more comfortable in your bed at night or at the grocery store. And you better believe if you think their jobs are so damn important that they should put themselves at higher risk than the average American, than they should be compensated accordingly.

It's really sad to me that people feel like they have to go to work right now because if they don't, they'll lose their job, or house or life. The system stopped working long about but it was never on display more than when people started citing the importance of the economy as the death toll climbed.

Your take on this is so far off reality.  The people at our plant are well paid, have health insurance, and do get paid time off.  Those who temporarily opt out will not lose their jobs and welcome back at any time.  Our company would go bankrupt quickly if we stopped production and kept paying all our teammates.  Is that what you want?  Do you really want shut down the entire economy?

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13 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Your take on this is so far off reality.  The people at our plant are well paid, have health insurance, and do get paid time off.  Those who temporarily opt out will not lose their jobs and welcome back at any time.  Our company would go bankrupt quickly if we stopped production and kept paying all our teammates.  Is that what you want?  Do you really want shut down the entire economy?

No dude, I think you're the one divorced from reality. This is a fucking public health crisis. You can't "save the economy" without solving the public health crisis first. The Venn diagram is the same circle. 

There's a choice we have to make. The economy can be rebuilt. Dead people cannot. 

I'd rather be alive, wouldn't you? You can't take money with you when you die. 

Everyone has to make the sacrifices. Me, you, everyone here. 

People shouldn't have to die so rich people can maintain their lifestyle. 

I mean, I think there's no way to stop this without shutting down the entire economy. 

Edited by Jack Parkman
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38 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Your take on this is so far off reality.  The people at our plant are well paid, have health insurance, and do get paid time off.  Those who temporarily opt out will not lose their jobs and welcome back at any time.  Our company would go bankrupt quickly if we stopped production and kept paying all our teammates.  Is that what you want?  Do you really want shut down the entire economy?

Because they have strong union representation pal. That is far from normal in this country. And even then, as you said the option was come back or were done.

Most workers have no bargaining power and it's "do the job or take a hike." Again, impoverished people are literally risking the lives of those around them out of fear of being homeless and starving.

The company shouldn't have to chose between bankruptcy or putting people at risk for production that is not life or death. That's really the point. The idea that the decision is one or the other is absurd and shows how broken this is. 

Should the economy have shut down? Uh yeah dude, there's 130,000 dead fucking americans - many of societies most vulnerable - because we as a country decided their lives were expendable and 35-40% of the country didn't give a shit and care about them. That's despicable man. Were some people going to die? Sure, it's a disease. Did this many have to die? No man, look at the rest of the world. And its because the dollar has come before the heart beat, and that's something everyone should be ashamed of. 

Ones treatment of those who cannot speak; cannot protect; cannot fight; cannot stand up for themselves defines their true character.

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18 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

No dude, I think you're the one divorced from reality. This is a fucking public health crisis. You can't "save the economy" without solving the public health crisis first. The Venn diagram is the same circle. 

There's a choice we have to make. The economy can be rebuilt. Dead people cannot. 

I'd rather be alive, wouldn't you? You can't take money with you when you die. 

Everyone has to make the sacrifices. Me, you, everyone here. 

People shouldn't have to die so rich people can maintain their lifestyle. 

I mean, I think there's no way to stop this without shutting down the entire economy. 

Alright I’ll go down the rabbit hole with you.  Shut the WHOLE thing down airtight.  Take us through the steps then.  
 

Obviously Congress has to subsidize the whole country.  Not just unemployment.  Every business, including profit.  Every bank.  Every hedge fund.  All multinational corps.  All residential, commercial and industrial rents & mortgages. 
 

All that moves are food processing, truck drivers and food delivery.  And somehow medicine delivery.   Mandatory stay at home with martial law enforcement.  
 

Im sure I’m missing tons but that’s what it would take basically, right?  To stop this.  To get rid of the virus.  Just like in outbreak, if you get sick you hang a flag outside the house or outside the 78th floor balcony if you live in a dense urban area.  
 

That probably gets it done.  What do you think?

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And spare me all this - we did what we had to do for the economy. 

The EU has more people than the USA, its borders are as open as states, and they were infected first... they have managed the virus well and things are returning to normal in many places. They didnt need to declare martial law or any of the other dumb bullshit nonsense americans try to fear monger into everyone. 

On 9/11, 3700 americans died and we went to war and signed away our freedoms in the patriot act. We were terrorized as a nation. 130k people are dead, and people are talking about how not getting a hair cut, their nails done or going to the bar is destroying their life lol.

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7 hours ago, illinilaw08 said:

Colorado hasn't seen a huge spike - though we have seen an uptick - and Polis shut the bars (defined as no food) back down, a mere 12 days after they were reopened (still can do carryout and delivery).

The feds have to step in with some serious additional stimulus.  The choice should be the feds pay businesses to stay closed and workers to stay home (bmags stated it perfectly above) - not we lose businesses that equal 10% of GDP or we have constantly renewing outbreaks.  Extend the $600 UI benefit indefinitely, target direct grants to businesses that have been shutdown, and let's have a national, across the board, strategy for containing the virus going forward.  Because the first try at reopening... hasn't worked.

Containment at this point is damn near impossible but we should at least try

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47 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

No dude, I think you're the one divorced from reality. This is a fucking public health crisis. You can't "save the economy" without solving the public health crisis first. 

There's a choice we have to make. The economy can be rebuilt. Dead people cannot. 

I'd rather be alive, wouldn't you? You can't take money with you when you die. 

Everyone has to make the sacrifices. Me, you, everyone here. 

Again, what is it that you are proposing?  Can the federal government financially support a complete shutdown of manufacturing and retail operations for an extended period of time?  Show me the math on that.  Ray Ray doesn’t think food processing plants should have to run right now, how do the 300M people in this country eat then?  What about policemen, firefighters, and other public services?  Do they have to work or do we just assume nothing will go wrong and they won’t be needed?  As I said to begin with, there has to be a balance between keeping everyone safe and maintaining some semblance of a functioning economy.  All the southern / rural states opening back up and not taking this seriously is a big fucking problem, but I don’t think what you guys are proposing is a viable solution either.  Acting like essential services aren’t actually essential because there is a health crisis going on is simply ignoring reality.  There is no doubt in my mind that US leadership has failed in its efforts to manage this pandemic, but tell me which of the more successful countries have gone to the extremes you are proposing?

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22 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

And spare me all this - we did what we had to do for the economy. 

The EU has more people than the USA, its borders are as open as states, and they were infected first... they have managed the virus well and things are returning to normal in many places. They didnt need to declare martial law or any of the other dumb bullshit nonsense americans try to fear monger into everyone. 

On 9/11, 3700 americans died and we went to war and signed away our freedoms in the patriot act. We were terrorized as a nation. 130k people are dead, and people are talking about how not getting a hair cut, their nails done or going to the bar is destroying their life lol.

What is even more sad, the EU really is reigned by a number of various countries and still managed through it better, vs. the US, which yes, has 50 states, but collectively under one federal government. Sometimes I just wonder - what if, at the very least, Trump preached the US of masks from the start (or at least once we shut down and CDC revised its recommendation). That one item - could have been the difference of us being on the same path as the EU vs. being the dumpster fire we are today (we will still survive as a country - but more people will have lost their lives (and our economy will be more impacted) all because of that one action in particular. 

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20 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

On 9/11, 3700 americans died and we went to war and signed away our freedoms in the patriot act. We were terrorized as a nation. 130k people are dead, and people are talking about how not getting a hair cut, their nails done or going to the bar is destroying their life lol.

Is this what you think I’m arguing?  There is a difference between me wanting the 300M people in this country being able to eat without having complete pandemonium / anarchy and Greg desperately wanting a haircut because he feels uncomfortable.

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2 minutes ago, Chisoxfn said:

What is even more sad, the EU really is reigned by a number of various countries and still managed through it better, vs. the US, which yes, has 50 states, but collectively under one federal government. Sometimes I just wonder - what if, at the very least, Trump preached the US of masks from the start (or at least once we shut down and CDC revised its recommendation). That one item - could have been the difference of us being on the same path as the EU vs. being the dumpster fire we are today (we will still survive as a country - but more people will have lost their lives (and our economy will be more impacted) all because of that one action in particular. 

Would have been huge, would still be huge, but unfortunately our POSPOTUS continues to argue against masks.

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1 hour ago, Jack Parkman said:

Yeah, Reich is more mainstream so I use him. 

I don't expect everyone to have views like my own. 

Have you ever read Chris Hedges? He makes really good points but is super depressing. He believes that the dystopian future is reality. 

Sounds exactly like Umair Haque at medium.com or Eudaimonia.

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