JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 4 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: No, I wouldn't entertain any trade for the 24 year old franchise cornerstone entering the contention window. You realize prospects aren't guaranteed successes, right? The fact that the Sox hit homeruns on all their big trades was as much luck as it was skill/evaluation. That doesn't typically happen. There have been countless stars traded for complete crap over the last 2 decades of baseball. There have been countless trades that have gone both ways. At times in favor of the established player while other times in favor of the young talent. If I can obtain two top 25 MLB prospects (one that’s top 3), both of whom already have a taste of the big leagues and have held their own in SSS, plus another top 100 prospect I’m doing it. It’ll never happen so this is all hypothetical anyway but I’m making that trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 12 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: If it makes the team better over the next 6-7 years I’m strongly considering it. I cheer for the team, not individual players (I guess I’m the anti-Greg). Again, you wouldn’t entertain Lux, May, and Gray for Moncada? I’d say you’d be foolish not to. So your White Sox memories pertain to the team and not the players? Interesting take. If you replaced Paul Konerko every year with a player of similar production but a different name, you don't think that would have made the 2005 World Series less enjoyable? I absolutely think that it would have. Part of the enjoyment of fanhood is seeing a guy like Konerko dedicate his career to the city and organization, and come up big on the biggest stage in the biggest moment. Would the grand slam have felt as awesome had it been hit by a rotating 1st base piece? I would say no. Part of the joy came from seeing a guy I followed for a decade - a guy whose loyalty, community interaction, and class were second to none - succeed in the biggest moment for a team he did so much for. My memories of the game revolve around player accomplishments, not ownership moves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 2 minutes ago, bmags said: If trading moncada makes them better over the next 4 years you consider it. But you are overvaluing years 5-7 when you don't have near enough information to do so. The rebuild has developed a fetishism of the long-term that has made it feel like it is always worth sacrificing the immediate year just to improve competitive odds 6 years from now. That trade could “potentially” make the Sox a better team in 2020 even, let alone years 2021-2025. Steamer has Lux at 1.7 WAR and May at 1.3 but both are projected for part time roles with the Dodgers. Obviously they’d be full time with the Sox. Steamer has Moncada projected for 4.0. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 1 minute ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: That trade could “potentially” make the Sox a better team in 2020 even, let alone years 2021-2025. Steamer has Lux at 1.7 WAR and May at 1.3 but both are projected for part time roles with the Dodgers. Obviously they’d be full time with the Sox. Steamer has Moncada projected for 4.0. 4 WAR at one position, is far more valuable than 4-5 WAR between two positions. I'll also take the over on Moncada's STEAMER projection assuming health. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 Just now, Look at Ray Ray Run said: So your White Sox memories pertain to the team and not the players? Interesting take. If you replaced Paul Konerko every year with a player of similar production but a different name, you don't think that would have made the 2005 World Series less enjoyable? I absolutely think that it would have. Part of the enjoyment of fanhood is seeing a guy like Konerko dedicate his career to the city and organization, and come up big on the biggest stage in the biggest moment. Would the grand slam have felt as awesome had it been hit by a rotating 1st base piece? I would say no. Part of the joy came from seeing a guy I followed for a decade - a guy whose loyalty, community interaction, and class were second to none - succeed in the biggest moment for a team he did so much for. My memories of the game revolve around player accomplishments, not ownership moves. The individual stories are a byproduct of a successful team. I haven’t been a satisfied CWS fan for the past 5 years just because Jose Abreu has been on the team and doing great things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 (edited) 3 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: The individual stories are a byproduct of a successful team. I haven’t been a satisfied CWS fan for the past 5 years just because Jose Abreu has been on the team and doing great things. Yeah, but if the White Sox win the World Series and Jose Abreu plays a big part, that will be far more enjoyable for me - that he got to experience and contribute to something he dedicated time and effort into - than a revolving door of players that fans gain zero connection with over an extended period of time. You also evaded my question. Would you have enjoyed that moment and memory as much had it been achieved by a revolving door of first baseman over the previous decade? Edited January 31, 2020 by Look at Ray Ray Run Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orlando Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 You know we need baseball to start when the hottest thread here is about a Cubs player 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 1 minute ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: 4 WAR at one position, is far more valuable than 4-5 WAR between two positions. I'll also take the over on Moncada's STEAMER projection assuming health. Would you trade Luis Robert and Dylan Cease for Ketel Marte? One is a proven 4+ WAR player in his prime, the other two are unproven and only projected for 4-5 WAR combined at two positions. That is essentially the inverse of the Moncada Dodgers trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 Just now, Orlando said: You know we need baseball to start when the hottest thread here is about a Cubs player You mean you're not interested in talking about trading 24 year old Yoan Moncada who isn't a free agent until after the 2023 season? How dare you! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 3 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: Yeah, but if the White Sox win the World Series and Jose Abreu plays a big part, that will be far more enjoyable for me - that he got to experience and contribute to something he dedicated time and effort into - than a revolving door of players that fans gain zero connection with over an extended period of time. You also evaded my question. Would you have enjoyed that moment and memory as much had it been achieved by a revolving door of first baseman over the previous decade? Yes. It was the championship that made it memorable to me. Jenks was one of my favorite players on that team and it was his first year with the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 (edited) 1 minute ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: Yes. It was the championship that made it memorable to me. Jenks was one of my favorite players on that team and it was his first year with the team. So the players don't matter to you at all and are just assets? Glad we could sort that out, and on that note I'll go ahead and concede from this conversation as we share dramatically different views on the enjoyment of being a fan. Edited January 31, 2020 by Look at Ray Ray Run 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 14 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: So the players don't matter to you at all and are just assets? Glad we could sort that out, and on that note I'll go ahead and concede from this conversation as we share dramatically different views on the enjoyment of being a fan. The players certainly do matter but I’m pretty sure Chiefs fans are pretty damn excited about Sunday even though one of their best players is a bad human being. Most fans I know are more excited about their team succeeding than individual players. If the team is successful, the individual side comes along with it as a natural byproduct. But again, I haven’t been a satisfied CWS fan over the past 5 years even though Jose Abreu has been a terrific story and a high performer for the team. And that’s because the TEAM has been completely lousy. I have no personal connection to a player like Moncada and if trading him makes the TEAM better I’m all for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonofaRoache Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 35 minutes ago, Orlando said: You know we need baseball to start when the hottest thread here is about a Cubs player Tomorrow, we can officially say baseball starts this month and the season starts next month. We survived the rebuild and it seemed to go by quickly, now that it is over. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 1 hour ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: The players certainly do matter but I’m pretty sure Chiefs fans are pretty damn excited about Sunday even though one of their best players is a bad human being. Most fans I know are more excited about their team succeeding than individual players. If the team is successful, the individual side comes along with it as a natural byproduct. But again, I haven’t been a satisfied CWS fan over the past 5 years even though Jose Abreu has been a terrific story and a high performer for the team. And that’s because the TEAM has been completely lousy. I have no personal connection to a player like Moncada and if trading him makes the TEAM better I’m all for it. I would certainly say this is a minority view point among fans. We all root for the laundry but you also have fan favorites and Moncada with his production, beautiful swing and incredible athleticism is certainly a favorite of many. Trading him "to make the team better" (which I think you're conflating with the owner saving money) would piss many people off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 16 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said: I would certainly say this is a minority view point among fans. We all root for the laundry but you also have fan favorites and Moncada with his production, beautiful swing and incredible athleticism is certainly a favorite of many. Trading him "to make the team better" (which I think you're conflating with the owner saving money) would piss many people off. Yea and many Royals fans were pissed when they traded Myers, Odorizzi, Montgomery, and Leonard back in 2012. But I bet those same fans were very happy in 2014 and 2015. Fans get over it if the team wins. Players come and go, especially in this age of free agency, but championships and the players that were part of champions are what people remember most fondly or at least I do. Podsednik wasn’t a White Sox for very long but I recall more enjoyable, memorable moments watching him play than I do Jose Abreu because he was integral to a championship team whereas Jose to this point has been part of very forgettable, losing teams. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.kansascity.com/sports/mlb/kansas-city-royals/article188945564.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 5 hours ago, SonofaRoache said: I agree with you, I was just answering a hypothetical. Now, it is worth discussion when big spending teams like the Cubs and Red Sox are trying to trade franchise players. It is also worth discussing because we have a lot of guys who may command big deals in the next 5 years. Our owner has yet to sign anyone to a 100 million dollar deal, although he tried, so the fans have good reason to think we may be reluctant to pay Yoyo 300m. Lastly, the front office will have to decide whether or not they want to keep Gio and Kopech at that time as well. I think it is imperative we keep Yoyo, Anderson, Eloy, and Robert, but how realistic is it? Hypothetically we may want to retain Anderson, Eloy, Robert, Gio, Cease, Lopez, Madrigal, Moncada, Kopech and/or Rodon so that they remain with us for their entire careers. Several of us have tried to say...make every effort to extend whichever of these guys we want as part of the core as early in the 6 year control window as possible. So far RH has done that with the first 3 players...that's great. I hope most of the other 7 players also extend. But the reality of baseball economics is that the player that can't be extended should not walk out the door with minimal or no compensation. Everyone on this board knows I have the hots for Madrigal. I want Rick to try to extend him now if possible. Madrigal is not going to get the same size extension as Eloy or that Moncada would get but he should be extended if possible. Since we still have 6 years of control there is no rush but it will be cheaper than if he is in the middle of his arbitration years and doing great. However, if after 4 years of trying to extend him an RH determines Nick will not be reasonable...then trade him while his value is sky high. Absolutely everyone here wants to retain Moncada and I presume most of the other players I named if they are performing. I'll bet most of them including Moncada agree to extensions if offered. Lopez and Cease still need to prove their worth and Rodon has Boras so anything is possible. RH will have to determine who is worth the gamble for the money wanted. If I were the Cub GM...I would offer my absolute top offer to Bryant now. If he says no...I trade him now with 2 years remaining of control in order to maximize return. At some point in time his value to the organization is being reduced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tray Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 God....everyone needs to stop b1tching about minutia. WE are gonna be awesome this year. Can't wait to get the party started ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 15 minutes ago, tray said: God....everyone needs to stop b1tching about minutia. WE are gonna be awesome this year. Can't wait to get the party started ! We all agree...bless you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewokpelts Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 (edited) 15 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: So your White Sox memories pertain to the team and not the players? Interesting take. If you replaced Paul Konerko every year with a player of similar production but a different name, you don't think that would have made the 2005 World Series less enjoyable? I absolutely think that it would have. Part of the enjoyment of fanhood is seeing a guy like Konerko dedicate his career to the city and organization, and come up big on the biggest stage in the biggest moment. Would the grand slam have felt as awesome had it been hit by a rotating 1st base piece? I would say no. Part of the joy came from seeing a guy I followed for a decade - a guy whose loyalty, community interaction, and class were second to none - succeed in the biggest moment for a team he did so much for. My memories of the game revolve around player accomplishments, not ownership moves. paul konerko stayed in Chicago because they offered him 60 million dollars. not because he dedicated himself to Chicago and its fans. and in 2005, he was still under team control and had no choice but to play for chicago. Edited February 1, 2020 by ewokpelts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 5 hours ago, ewokpelts said: paul konerko stayed in Chicago because they offered him 60 million dollars. not because he dedicated himself to Chicago and its fans. and in 2005, he was still under team control and had no choice but to play for chicago. Konerko took less money than was offered elsewhere to remain with the team and organization. Also, who cares? It's their job/career. I have no idea what point you're trying to make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 5 hours ago, ewokpelts said: paul konerko stayed in Chicago because they offered him 60 million dollars. not because he dedicated himself to Chicago and its fans. and in 2005, he was still under team control and had no choice but to play for chicago. One of those rare occasions when you are both correct.😀 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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