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Kyyle23

Kris Bryant loses grievance

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2 minutes ago, poppysox said:

Rick Hahn will want the team firing on all cylinders from opening day.  I believe RH will work his extension magic sometime during ST.

There's no point of doing that with Madrigal unless it is really cheap and he gives up multiple years of free agency to make the risk worth it (unlike the Eloy and Robert deals where we got one).

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2 minutes ago, poppysox said:

Rick Hahn will want the team firing on all cylinders from opening day.  I believe RH will work his extension magic sometime during ST.

Madrigal has little to gain by signing an extension right now.  He'd be looking at something like TA's contract at absolute best, and while a guaranteed 15 million or so probably sounds pretty good he knows that if he puts down one solid rookie season his value will double or even triple.

For various reasons you can't compare his situation to Eloy or Robert's, who had already proven more at the MiLB level and at least for Robert, Robert has probably the highest floor and highest ceiling of any non Wander, non Adell position player so he got paid on that.

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1 minute ago, soxfan2014 said:

There's no point of doing that with Madrigal unless it is really cheap and he gives up multiple years of free agency to make the risk worth it (unlike the Eloy and Robert deals where we got one).

Obviously the word extension doesn't mean everyone gets the same sized paycheck.  Hahn seems quite capable of finding the number that gets results.

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Im a pretty big Madrigal fan, but there is really very little incentive to sign him right now. I cant see why he would sign a small deal, which is the only thing the Sox could really offer. 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said:

Why in the world would Colorado do that?

No idea but Jesse Rogers reporting it’s been discussed 

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2 minutes ago, poppysox said:

Obviously the word extension doesn't mean everyone gets the same sized paycheck.  Hahn seems quite capable of finding the number that gets results.

it takes two to tango.  TA had a wife and baby when he signed his deal and comes from a fairly impoverished background.  He had a chance to basically secure his family's future until they are old and grey and he decided to take that deal.  From his perspective it made a lot of sense.  

madrigal is a single guy just out of college a couple  years that came from a middle class background.  He might look at a deal like TA signed and say "Nah, not for me, I have a support system if I never play another baseball game and I don't have any kids so I'm going to wait and bet on myself".

tl:dr: Madrigal is unlikely to be looking to sign an extension right now.

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I honestly see so point in giving Madrigal an extension at all.  Nobody really knows what his offensive game is at the MLB level.  He could be a slightly better offensive slightly worse defensive version of Yolmer.  Let him hang in the minors for a bit and if he is doing well, promote him.  It's not like he would be that expensive to extend anyways since his ceiling doesn't seem to be really high.

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2 minutes ago, BackDoorBreach said:

I honestly see so point in giving Madrigal an extension at all.  Nobody really knows what his offensive game is at the MLB level.  He could be a slightly better offensive slightly worse defensive version of Yolmer.  Let him hang in the minors for a bit and if he is doing well, promote him.  It's not like he would be that expensive to extend anyways since his ceiling doesn't seem to be really high.

The only motivation to do so right now is to have him up by day 1 rather than April 12 or whatever the target day is. If we're going to have him in the minors for some time, we need additional infield depth because someone will have to start for those first 2 weeks and then we still need a backup SS, so it can't be Mendick for both jobs. 

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Just now, Balta1701 said:

The only motivation to do so right now is to have him up by day 1 rather than April 12 or whatever the target day is. If we're going to have him in the minors for some time, we need additional infield depth because someone will have to start for those first 2 weeks and then we still need a backup SS, so it can't be Mendick for both jobs. 

We have mendick and leury assuming nobody gets hurt in the first month.

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4 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

it takes two to tango.  TA had a wife and baby when he signed his deal and comes from a fairly impoverished background.  He had a chance to basically secure his family's future until they are old and grey and he decided to take that deal.  From his perspective it made a lot of sense.  

madrigal is a single guy just out of college a couple  years that came from a middle class background.  He might look at a deal like TA signed and say "Nah, not for me, I have a support system if I never play another baseball game and I don't have any kids so I'm going to wait and bet on myself".

tl:dr: Madrigal is unlikely to be looking to sign an extension right now.

Last Fall when I brought up extensions for Robert & Madrigal many posters said maybe Madrigal would accept but no way would Robert because he already had the big payday.  Now Robert has signed the extension and I'm being told Madrigal is unlikely to sign.  If Madrigal is a huge success the Sox can save some money by extending him now...Madrigal signing early insures financial security in case of injury or less than hoped for success.  

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8 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

The only motivation to do so right now is to have him up by day 1 rather than April 12 or whatever the target day is. If we're going to have him in the minors for some time, we need additional infield depth because someone will have to start for those first 2 weeks and then we still need a backup SS, so it can't be Mendick for both jobs. 

Technically it can if you have someone like Leury play 2B to sub for Anderson (with Mendick shifting to SS).

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7 minutes ago, BackDoorBreach said:

We have mendick and leury assuming nobody gets hurt in the first month.

Plus whoever the invite to camp and send to Charlotte.  If TA gets hurt then we have a problem but otherwise Mendick and Leury can hold down those utility spots.  I wonder if they will have Madrigal playing some SS in spring and in Charlotte so he can be the primary backup to TA.  Leury had like 8 errors in 30 games at SS last year he's not really a SS.  I'd feel a lot better with a sure handed if a bit loose armed Madrigal as the primary backup.

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Hahn is going to quickly lose all the monies for making the team better if he overcommits to every single prospect. I love Madrigal...but it just doesn't make sense to speed this through. 2020 is competitive window opening...not the WS year. 2021 is when it all comes together and the 2-4 year window is truly open.

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55 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

Why call a whambulance?  Players should always fight for their money, and this directly affects his 

Yeah I get that he’s a cub and all, but the rules are clearly unfair for the players imo. I have no problem with Bryant fighting for $ from a billionaire owner. But the players did also approve the CBA so is what it is for now. Hopefully there will be a lot of changes coming up

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37 minutes ago, fathom said:

No idea but Jesse Rogers reporting it’s been discussed 

It makes zero sense for a two reasons...

The Rockies would have to take on a lot of money.  How does trading Bryant’s $18.6 million salary and taking on Arenado’s $35 million dollar salary keep the Cubs out of luxury tax hell?

Also, Arenado has an opt-out clause after the 2021 season so both Bryant and Arenado could only be under control for 2 more seasons.  Arenado would have to waive this clause for a trade to begin to make some sense.

Edited by Moan4Yoan

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3 hours ago, soxfan2014 said:

Look again what I said. I'm saying if he won the case he would have less control meaning less trade value. But reading is hard.

Is this the new thing on SoxTalk, to insult someone's intelligence for misreading something that was terribly written and was difficult to understand?

 

"Reading is hard" seems to be the go-to bullshit insult on this board any time someone can't understand poorly written posts.

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This move will certainly be eliminated next contract, and I doubt the guys who have had it happen to them will be "grandfathered" to have to be controlled the extra year. If Madrigal is ready, I bet he is on the opening day roster. They won't be able to play with service time now. Last year, they probably get away with it. But I would venture to guess moving forward, any manipulation will be addressed in the next CBA.

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4 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said:

It makes zero sense for a two reasons...

The Rockies would have to take on a lot of money.  How does trading Bryant’s $18.6 million salary and taking on Arenado’s $35 million dollar salary keep the Cubs out of luxury tax hell?

Also, Arenado has an opt-out clause after the 2021 season so both Bryant and Arenado could only be under control for 2 more seasons.  Arenado would have to waive this clause for a trade to begin to make some sense.

You mean the Cubs, right

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1 minute ago, Dick Allen said:

This move will certainly be eliminated next contract, and I doubt the guys who have had it happen to them will be "grandfathered" to have to be controlled the extra year. If Madrigal is ready, I bet he is on the opening day roster. They won't be able to play with service time now. Last year, they probably get away with it. But I would venture to guess moving forward, any manipulation will be addressed in the next CBA.

The Sox have plenty of plausible deniability here.  Madrigal has all of 134 AAA PA.  He has all of 180 AA PA and hit for a 116 wRC+.   Byrant had almost 600 PA AA/AAA and raked to the tune of like a 160 wRC+ when he was delayed.  And Kris just lost his case.  Madrigal won't even sniff a win if he files.

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12 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

This move will certainly be eliminated next contract, and I doubt the guys who have had it happen to them will be "grandfathered" to have to be controlled the extra year. If Madrigal is ready, I bet he is on the opening day roster. They won't be able to play with service time now. Last year, they probably get away with it. But I would venture to guess moving forward, any manipulation will be addressed in the next CBA.

Why not?  This decision shows that the Sox can indeed hold Madrigal down and manipulate his service time this year.  And Madrigal is no where near the player that Bryant was in the minors so it would be even easier to defend.

The new CBA, that hasn’t happened yet, isn’t going to retroactively change or penalize for past service time manipulation.  That is ludicrous.

Edited by Moan4Yoan

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33 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

You mean the Cubs, right

Nope, I see what you mean but I worded it in a weird way.

For the trade to work and keep the Cubs out of luxury tax hell, the Rockies would have to eat a lot of Arenado’s money.  Which makes the trade even less likely or logical.

Edited by Moan4Yoan

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14 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said:

Why not?  This decision shows that the Sox can indeed hold Madrigal down and manipulate his service time this year.  And Madrigal is no where near the player that Bryant was in the minors so it would be even easier to defend.

The new CBA, that hasn’t happened yet, isn’t going to retroactively change or penalize for past service time manipulation.  That is ludicrous.

Right, but I bet the new CBA will address any straggler manipulations. Anyone who gets called up a day or two after their service time changes this season or next, will IMO, have it credited back. 

It's a loophole in the rules the players should have seen coming. They will use any loophole they can get.  No one is ever going to be an expert on when a prospect is ready and when he is not. Some guys are ready to go, some need a little time. Some need no time. But calling someone up right after the magic day does indicate you are playing with  the rules, and I think it will be addressed, and stopped now. 

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Nick Madrigal has not proven he is ready.  If there was nothing such as service time, there would be no debate that the would have to light he world on fire to make it out of spring training with the team.  This is a lot of bluster.  If he hits .600 they may take him north.

If he hits well in April and most of May he will be called up if there is a need.

Also the ceiling of him is about $15M a year.  He will not be held back by service time.  Jimenez and Robert were going to be held back for the extra year because they may ear $20or $30M plus a year if they hit their ceiling.

 

Same with Kopech.  He will be held back to properly gauge his inning workload early.  If he blew his arm out in AAA 2 years ago, there would be no talk of him breaking camp with the team.  

 

 

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56 minutes ago, TheFutureIsNear said:

Yeah I get that he’s a cub and all, but the rules are clearly unfair for the players imo. I have no problem with Bryant fighting for $ from a billionaire owner. But the players did also approve the CBA so is what it is for now. Hopefully there will be a lot of changes coming up

This was about Scott Boras. I don't normally take sides.

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28 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Right, but I bet the new CBA will address any straggler manipulations. Anyone who gets called up a day or two after their service time changes this season or next, will IMO, have it credited back. 

It's a loophole in the rules the players should have seen coming. They will use any loophole they can get.  No one is ever going to be an expert on when a prospect is ready and when he is not. Some guys are ready to go, some need a little time. Some need no time. But calling someone up right after the magic day does indicate you are playing with  the rules, and I think it will be addressed, and stopped now. 

So you bring the guy up exactly 3 days after the deadline, making 3 days after the deadline the "effective" deadline. 

Whatever deadline you try to devise as the rule, people will follow the rule you write. 

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