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Betts to Dodgers

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2 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said:

Agree to disagree.  BackDoorBreach already called you out perfectly.  Other posters can compare both Joc and Mazara but I can’t.  I am using hindsight about wanting Joc over Mazara when I noted there were better options than Mazara at the time the Sox acquired Mazara and Ozuna, Castellanos, and Joc were all still available.  Please go back and review BackDoorBreach’s post because he nailed it and you.

Or we could just stop engaging with you and move along to more important things in life.

:)

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God I'm so glad the Sox didn't think Ozuna or Castellanos were actually good options. 

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25 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Did I miss something in that deal last night? Because it looks like the Angels gave up less for Pederson than the White Sox did for Mazara.

Yea you missed something . Probably should read the past couple of pages worth of comments.Jimmy saif he heard the Dodgers wanted Bummer for Joc which was before the Betts deal to the Dodgers wasn't on the horizon.

Once the Dodgers got Betts, Pederson was more expendable at a lesser price because getting Betts and his salary plus half of Price's salary meant they now had a crowded OF and wanted to cut some salary too. That had to be done simultaneously with the Betts trade because waiting would just make it worse. They took the bird in hand rather than fielding pitiful offers for Joc .

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12 minutes ago, ptatc said:

Cubs too.

Yeah, which is a real problem within the game.

There is no penalty for spending nothing and profiting endless, but there is a penalty for spending at the top of the bracket. It's very anti-player, and I'm shocked they didn't see this problem beforehand. 

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3 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Yea you missed something . Probably should read the past couple of pages worth of comments.Jimmy saif he heard the Dodgers wanted Bummer for Joc which was before the Betts deal to the Dodgers wasn't on the horizon.

Once the Dodgers got Betts, Pederson was more expendable at a lesser price because getting Betts and his salary plus half of Price's salary meant they now had a crowded OF and wanted to cut some salary too. That had to be done simultaneously with the Betts trade because waiting would just make it worse. They took the bird in hand rather than fielding pitiful offers for Joc .

So if the price for Joc decreased because the Dodgers acquired Betts, wouldn’t that price also decrease for the Sox and Bummer would no longer be the ask, had the Sox still been interested?

Edited by Moan4Yoan

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I don't really understand all the outrage over not getting Pederson. Yeah he's better than Mazara, but he's only a 1 year rental. And it's not like Hahn could have foreseen that Pederson would be traded for next to nothing in February. I'm not Hahn's biggest fan by any means but I don't see this as something worth being that upset about.

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5 minutes ago, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said:

I don't really understand all the outrage over not getting Pederson. Yeah he's better than Mazara, but he's only a 1 year rental. And it's not like Hahn could have foreseen that Pederson would be traded for next to nothing in February. I'm not Hahn's biggest fan by any means but I don't see this as something worth being that upset about.

A one year rental for a really good player (~3 WAR) is better than 2 years of a mediocre to bad player who is consistently under 1 WAR each year.  The Sox may not even want to bring back Mazara for the second year if he stays his usual self in 2020.

Also, like BackDoorBreach already said, just because you already added Mazara doesn’t mean you automatically pass on a much better player.  Mazara could’ve always been moved again for a reliever or prospect.

Edited by Moan4Yoan

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32 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said:

There was a thread here about guessing the Sox next player acquisition.  I guessed Mazara and was correct.  That doesn’t mean I wanted him.

But right now, you are making assumptions on what Joc would have cost the Sox, pre-Betts trade.  You don’t know!  All we know is the current cost of Joc post-Betts trade, which doesn’t look like much of a price to pay so far.

If you wouldn’t rather have Joc than Mazara right now, I seriously question how much you want the Sox to win.  Because there is no doubt that Joc helps the Sox win more games than Mazara.  In fact, Joc helped the Dodgers win more games above replacement last year than Mazara did in his entire 4 years with the Rangers.

My assumption is based on just about the most knowledgeable guy on this board who said the Dodgers wanted Bummer.

What good is helping the Sox win more games for one year in a year with so many unproven young players ?

I seriously question your knowledge of how the Sox are currently constructed and their realistic chances at making the playoffs in 2020 and how signing a player for one year helps any time after 2020.

Joc is available next year. Then he can help the Sox in the future if they decide to go that direction.

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3 minutes ago, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said:

I don't really understand all the outrage over not getting Pederson. Yeah he's better than Mazara, but he's only a 1 year rental. And it's not like Hahn could have foreseen that Pederson would be traded for next to nothing in February. I'm not Hahn's biggest fan by any means but I don't see this as something worth being that upset about.

I do think the odds of Mazara being a one year rental is pretty good as well. So I can see why fans would be a little upset since Pederson plays much better defense and has a better offensive track record. 

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2 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

What good is helping the Sox win more games for one year in a year with so many unproven young players ?

I seriously question your knowledge of how the Sox are currently constructed and their realistic chances at making the playoffs in 2020 and how signing a player for one year helps any time after 2020.

Joc is available next year. Then he can help the Sox in the future if they decide to go that direction.

I don't think it's likely that the White Sox win 95 games next year, but I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility, so yeah a better player is useful, and a better player at a lower price than we paid would be even better. 

If I applied the same standard that you did, "What good is helping the Sox win more games for 1 year", then pretty much every deal the White Sox made this year looks like a bad deal as they're paying a lot of money to have Keuchel, Encarnacion, Cishek here this year when there would be comparable options available next year.

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12 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said:

The Sox thought Shields was worth Tatis Jr.  The Sox also spent $40+ million for a load of crap last year.  No one is infallible in their thinking.  Not you, me, or the Sox.

And those deals have nothing to do with the current team, Sorry if I trust my own judgment and how the Sox and the other teams valued Castellanos and Ozuna over yours. We'll see how things play out.

It actually has worked out pretty well for the Sox with all those guys available next year.

I'm more concerned about the team beyond 2020 than you are .

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Just now, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I'm more concerned about the team beyond 2020 than you are .

Then isn't the complaint about Steele Walker more valid?

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As a Dodgers fan, this trade makes me pretty excited.

As a Sox fan, I am a bit bummed Maeda is going to the Twins. I was hoping maybe the Sox would have targeted him. Maeda pitching for the Twins is not good for the Sox.

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11 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said:

So if the price for Joc decreased because the Dodgers acquired Betts, wouldn’t that price also decrease for the Sox and Bummer would no longer be the ask, had the Sox still been interested?

Sure but what's the point ? Again you are arguing for 1 year of Joc Pederson . It's not that important when he and many other quality RF's are available for a longer term deal next year.

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Just now, Balta1701 said:

Then isn't the complaint about Steele Walker more valid?

No because Steele Walker absolute best case is a 2 WAR OF from 2021-26 or so.  That's a useful depth piece nothing more.  Most of the time he pans out into a AAAA player.

Sox don't need to be needlessly trading C+ level prospects but they don't need to be hoarding them needlessly either.

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1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

Then isn't the complaint about Steele Walker more valid?

Steele Walker may never even be a quality MLB player and he was at least a few years away. The future lies with the young pitching staff being good and is the lineup is potentially one of the best if Robert , Moncada and Eloy all become the new Monsters of the Midway.

They have other RF minor leaguers who still have just as good or a better shot as Walker.

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8 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Then isn't the complaint about Steele Walker more valid?

Mazara has more talent in his thumb than Walker. Walker will be extremely lucky to have the career Mazara has had and he's still only 24.

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1 minute ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Steele Walker may never even be a quality MLB player and he was at least a few years away. The future lies with the young pitching staff being good and is the lineup is potentially one of the best if Robert , Moncada and Eloy all become the new Monsters of the Midway.

They have other RF minor leaguers who still have just as good or a better shot as Walker.

Yeah but you just contradicted yourself, you said you were concerned more about beyond 2020 and then you just admitted that Walker has as good of a shot at contributing to a team as any of the other outfielders and yet you were willing to sacrifice that guy for Mazara in 2020. If you were "more concerned about the team beyond 2020" you would want as many options beyond 2020 as possible as you don't know that any of them will work out.

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11 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

And those deals have nothing to do with the current team, Sorry if I trust my own judgment and how the Sox and the other teams valued Castellanos and Ozuna over yours. We'll see how things play out.

It actually has worked out pretty well for the Sox with all those guys available next year.

I'm more concerned about the team beyond 2020 than you are .

What kind of hand wringing is this? Ozuna DECLINED multi year deals worth around 50 million to bet on himself.  Castellanos got a 4/64 million dollar deal where he was able to include opt outs...which benefits him?

At the end of the day Castellanos and Ozuna were offered market value contracts.  Not sure why you're taking a victory lap.  

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11 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I don't think it's likely that the White Sox win 95 games next year, but I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility, so yeah a better player is useful, and a better player at a lower price than we paid would be even better. 

If I applied the same standard that you did, "What good is helping the Sox win more games for 1 year", then pretty much every deal the White Sox made this year looks like a bad deal as they're paying a lot of money to have Keuchel, Encarnacion, Cishek here this year when there would be comparable options available next year.

Those players are better fits and you know that. Mazara is good in RF for a shot at his upside since we are gambling on a lot of young players upsides. The Sox have Keuchel for multiple years. Encarncion is a bridge to Abreu or someone else playing DH but if good he is here is 2021 also. Cishek can be here also for 2021 if the Sox exercise the option.

Aee you just testing my knowledge here by apparently feigning ignorance on their contracts ?

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6 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Yeah but you just contradicted yourself, you said you were concerned more about beyond 2020 and then you just admitted that Walker has as good of a shot at contributing to a team as any of the other outfielders and yet you were willing to sacrifice that guy for Mazara in 2020. If you were "more concerned about the team beyond 2020" you would want as many options beyond 2020 as possible as you don't know that any of them will work out.

Oh please by that standard I can't trade any minor league player . You are just being trollish.

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Just now, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Those players are better fits and you know that. Mazara is good in RF for a shot at his upside since we are gambling on a lot of young players upsides. The Sox have Keuchel for multiple years. Encarncion is a bridge to Abreu or someone else playing DH but if good he is here is 2021 also. Cishek can be here also for 2021 if the Sox exercise the option.

Aee you just testing my knowledge here by apparently feigning ignorance on their contracts ?

Yes the White Sox have Keuchel for multiple years but as I stated there are always comparable pitching options available if you're willing to spend money, so if the White Sox cannot compete this year then why are you spending the money this year? Bauer, Stroman, Odorizzi, Minor, Ray - even if some of them get extended, there will be pitchers available on the free agent market next year, so if you don't believe the White Sox are competitive this year why are you paying a premium to have that player this year? There will similarly be relievers available next year, so if you don't believe the White Sox have a chance this year, why spend the money this year? 

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1 minute ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Oh please by that standard I can't trade any minor league player . You are just being trollish.

You set the standard yourself by saying "I'm more focused on beyond 2020". Under those rules, you're right, you can't trade minor leaguers for guys that have limited control. 

You're doing this "I like having these guys for 2020 and I'm ok to spend resources on 2020 but I don't believe in the team for 2020 so I'm more concerned for later years" contradiction repeatedly here to wiggle around while saying both of them.

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6 minutes ago, BackDoorBreach said:

What kind of hand wringing is this? Ozuna DECLINED multi year deals worth around 50 million to bet on himself.  Castellanos got a 4/64 million dollar deal where he was able to include opt outs...which benefits him?

At the end of the day Castellanos and Ozuna were offered market value contracts.  Not sure why you're taking a victory lap.  

I don't think me saying we will see how things turn out is a victory lap. Mazara could suck but here's consolation in plenty of good RF's available next year now which is more helpful then getting any of them for only one year.

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