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Betts to Dodgers

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12 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Probably best to revisit this discussion in another 6 months to determine who was “right.”

It isn’t black and white. One side is proclaiming a grievance based on previously unavailable hindsight.

We have what we have and that’s it. Move on.

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7 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

You set the standard yourself by saying "I'm more focused on beyond 2020". Under those rules, you're right, you can't trade minor leaguers for guys that have limited control. 

You're doing this "I like having these guys for 2020 and I'm ok to spend resources on 2020 but I don't believe in the team for 2020 so I'm more concerned for later years" contradiction repeatedly here to wiggle around while saying both of them.

what good is "control" of a C+, likely AAAA OF?  Not much.  And you're acting like Mazara is only a 2020 player.  He could be a short or medium or even long term RF option.   

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Just now, chitownsportsfan said:

what good is "control" of a C+, likely AAAA OF?  Not much.  And you're acting like Mazara is only a 2020 player.  He could be a short or medium or even long term RF option.   

Because we could extend him? Dude your logic literally applies 100% to Joc Pederson under the exact same phrasing. 

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4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Yes the White Sox have Keuchel for multiple years but as I stated there are always comparable pitching options available if you're willing to spend money, so if the White Sox cannot compete this year then why are you spending the money this year? Bauer, Stroman, Odorizzi, Minor, Ray - even if some of them get extended, there will be pitchers available on the free agent market next year, so if you don't believe the White Sox are competitive this year why are you paying a premium to have that player this year? There will similarly be relievers available next year, so if you don't believe the White Sox have a chance this year, why spend the money this year? 

Apparently you forget that Rome wasn't built in a day ? You have to start getting better some time so there's a difference between having guys for multiple years than just one year at a price the Sox weren't willing to pay .

You are trying to tell me every fix can be made in one year ? Again trollish . Being better and getting a better read on the young players on the Sox and in the minors is very important to attract free agents and asses they needs for 2021 and beyond.

Even if they don't win but improve a lot they still have those guys for 2021 . And we get to see how Moncada ,Giolito, Cease Lopez, Dunning, Rodon, Vaughn, Madrigal, Robert ,Anderson, Mazara, Basabe, Adolfo, Rutherford Luis Gonzales, Burdi and others do with another year.

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1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

Because we could extend him? Dude your logic literally applies 100% to Joc Pederson under the exact same phrasing. 

Everybody would prefer a better player in RF.  That's...not even an argument.  But Steele Walker is not a lamentable loss.

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1 minute ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Everybody would prefer a better player in RF.  That's...not even an argument.  But Steele Walker is not a lamentable loss.

Apparently it is from what people have just said to me.

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Just now, Balta1701 said:

Apparently it is from what people have just said to me.

lol, some people think you can turn chicken shit into chicken salad.  they can safely be ignored.

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5 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Apparently you forget that Rome wasn't built in a day ? You have to start getting better some time so there's a difference between having guys for multiple years than just one year at a price the Sox weren't willing to pay .

You are trying to tell me every fix can be made in one year ? Again trollish . Being better and getting a better read on the young players on the Sox and in the minors is very important to attract free agents and asses they needs for 2021 and beyond.

Even if they don't win but improve a lot they still have those guys for 2021 . And we get to see how Moncada ,Giolito, Cease Lopez, Dunning, Rodon, Vaughn, Madrigal, Robert ,Anderson, Mazara, Basabe, Adolfo, Rutherford Luis Gonzales, Burdi and others do with another year.

Oh so having a better player, Joc Pederson, in RF for 2020 would have been a benefit? Because you just argued against this guy, who questioned how signing a guy for 2020 helps you any year beyond 2020.

49 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

My assumption is based on just about the most knowledgeable guy on this board who said the Dodgers wanted Bummer.

What good is helping the Sox win more games for one year in a year with so many unproven young players ?

I seriously question your knowledge of how the Sox are currently constructed and their realistic chances at making the playoffs in 2020 and how signing a player for one year helps any time after 2020.

Joc is available next year. Then he can help the Sox in the future if they decide to go that direction.

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49 minutes ago, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said:

I don't really understand all the outrage over not getting Pederson. Yeah he's better than Mazara, but he's only a 1 year rental. And it's not like Hahn could have foreseen that Pederson would be traded for next to nothing in February. I'm not Hahn's biggest fan by any means but I don't see this as something worth being that upset about.

There's no actual outrage it's the same 2 guys who always complain about Mazara.  Not a lot of people wanted Mazara but now it is what it is and there's a good deal of upside . He is younger than Giolitio, and Lopez. Hes about a year older than Kopech, Sheets and Burger and less than a year older then Cease and Luis Gonzalez. Jimmy Lambert is older .

It takes a lot of talent to make it to the Bigs at 21 yrs old. They hope he makes some progress despite his production being consistently average. There is upside to him just like the guys close to his age that still haven't done anything the Sox are also counting on. The only difference is in the years of control.

And you are right it's not worth discussing it any more.

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1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

You set the standard yourself by saying "I'm more focused on beyond 2020". Under those rules, you're right, you can't trade minor leaguers for guys that have limited control. 

You're doing this "I like having these guys for 2020 and I'm ok to spend resources on 2020 but I don't believe in the team for 2020 so I'm more concerned for later years" contradiction repeatedly here to wiggle around while saying both of them.

No Balta I didn't make any rules. I said i was concerned more about the future. There are no rules that go along with that. You are the one putting limits on how I see the future. Please show me this list of rules so I can show them to everyone.

I think Joc for 1 year was dumb. I think Mazara has upside just like any prospect they are hoping realizes upside. Him reaching it is good for the future. Any of them reaching it is good for the future among the 25 or so other players on the 40 or in AAA or AA who might be useful in 2021 and beyond.. Any one of the players signed for more than 1 year is good for current and 1or 2 or 3 future years.

You are just arguing to catch me in some kind of flaw in my logic. You aren't even arguing for one player over the other.

 I really did used to like you as a poster now I have no idea where you are coming from.

Edited by CaliSoxFanViaSWside
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26 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Oh so having a better player, Joc Pederson, in RF for 2020 would have been a benefit? Because you just argued against this guy, who questioned how signing a guy for 2020 helps you any year beyond 2020.

I have no idea if Joc will be better than Mazara in 2020. I'm fine with Mazara and his upside. I wasn't fine with the Sox taking away a current good ML player with years of control for Pederson like Bummer. I was fine with trading a MiL player like Walker who is probably 2 years away when they have  4 other MiL OF's who could also pan out in less time.

Mazara is our Rf . If anyone wants to they can cry about Joc getting away for less. Cry about all the teams that passed on Trout and so many others in the drafts, Cry about Tatis and Semien. There is a  lot  more things concerning the Sox than whining about how Joc ,Castellanos and Ozuna got away when they are all likely to be around to sign next year.

If this doesn't jibe with your rules for how I see the future so be it. You can't make up rules for me based on how you think I am thinking. Some players are more expendable than others based on many reasons. Peace.. I'm done.

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Such a weird debate some of you are backing.

The Angels got Joc for nothing bc the current price, due to the Dodgers' needs post Mookie trade, was much less than it was before they landed Betts.

Had we traded for Joc prior to LA landing Betts we would have had to pay much more (Bummer was the reported ask).

So the only argument would be to have gone into February with the same RF situation as last year while we hoped LA traded for Betts and made Joc's asking price less.

 

IMO Mazara is the perfect fit for our 2020 needs. He is only 24 and has upside. He makes us better in RF compared to 19. We can cut him if he sucks. We can still go after Joc next year if we want.

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1 hour ago, Charlie Haeger's Knuckles said:

As a Dodgers fan, this trade makes me pretty excited.

As a Sox fan, I am a bit bummed Maeda is going to the Twins. I was hoping maybe the Sox would have targeted him. Maeda pitching for the Twins is not good for the Sox.

I made the same point about Maeda. He is a steal for the Twins with his contract & talent. 

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2 hours ago, Moan4Yoan said:

Agree to disagree.  BackDoorBreach already called you out perfectly.  Other posters can compare both Joc and Mazara but I can’t.  I am using hindsight about wanting Joc over Mazara when I noted there were better options than Mazara at the time the Sox acquired Mazara and Ozuna, Castellanos, and Joc were all still available.  Please go back and review BackDoorBreach’s post because he nailed it and you.

I never said you can't . I just pointed out that you don't use it in the context of the question and/or post that you are responding to. 

We all know your view on it and you certainly can say whatever you want. However, you continually twist whatever post to which you are responding back to the same topic instead of the post to which you are responding.

It doesn't matter if someone calls me out or nails me on anything. The point still remains about replying to the content of the actual posts.

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2 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

There's no actual outrage it's the same 2 guys who always complain about Mazara.  Not a lot of people wanted Mazara but now it is what it is and there's a good deal of upside . He is younger than Giolitio, and Lopez. Hes about a year older than Kopech, Sheets and Burger and less than a year older then Cease and Luis Gonzalez. Jimmy Lambert is older .

It takes a lot of talent to make it to the Bigs at 21 yrs old. They hope he makes some progress despite his production being consistently average. There is upside to him just like the guys close to his age that still haven't done anything the Sox are also counting on. The only difference is in the years of control.

And you are right it's not worth discussing it any more.

https://www.fangraphs.com/players/david-ortiz/745/stats?position=DH

Here’s a good example of a player who exploded after age 26/27.

Edited by caulfield12

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1 hour ago, Capital G said:

Such a weird debate some of you are backing.

The Angels got Joc for nothing bc the current price, due to the Dodgers' needs post Mookie trade, was much less than it was before they landed Betts.

Had we traded for Joc prior to LA landing Betts we would have had to pay much more (Bummer was the reported ask).

So the only argument would be to have gone into February with the same RF situation as last year while we hoped LA traded for Betts and made Joc's asking price less.

 

IMO Mazara is the perfect fit for our 2020 needs. He is only 24 and has upside. He makes us better in RF compared to 19. We can cut him if he sucks. We can still go after Joc next year if we want.

There was nothing stopping the White Sox from trading for Pederson yesterday.

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18 minutes ago, TomPickle said:

There was nothing stopping the White Sox from trading for Pederson yesterday.

We are not sure about that. The Pederson trade occurred very quickly after the Betts trade. It almost seems the Dodgers took an offer that was already on the table . It seems odd they didn't shop Pederson for a day or two unless the Betts trade was made a few days ago but was only announced last night.  

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I guess I'm glad the Sox didn't wait Until the eve of Spring Training in hopes that the Betts trade was done with the dodgers in order to make Joc available and cheaper than normal.

because it would be the Sox luck that Joc was traded to the Angels regardless 

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2 hours ago, TomPickle said:

There was nothing stopping the White Sox from trading for Pederson yesterday.

Except that they already have a RF , they would have had to beat the Angels offer in a very short window of time, then trade Mazara for God knows what since every team would know they are stuck with 2 LH starting RF's and look foolish in the process .

It's always just so simple isn't it ?

I'm not even sure that trade is done yet. Ohh maybe there's still hope to get him . Cling to it fellas. Cling hard.

So far it looks like Pederson and Stripling for Rengifo and 2 prospects which makes all these arguments more bizarre because no one can say for sure that the Angels got a great deal.

Edited by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

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3 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

https://www.fangraphs.com/players/david-ortiz/745/stats?position=DH

Here’s a good example of a player who exploded after age 26/27.

Might as well include 25 years old since that's what Mazara will be. And you can make a list of 100's of players who's best years happened after 24.

Edited by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

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10 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Except that they already have a RF , they would have had to beat the Angels offer in a very short window of time, then trade Mazara for God knows what since every team would know they are stuck with 2 LH starting RF's and look foolish in the process .

It's always just so simple isn't it ?

I'm not even sure that trade is done yet. Ohh maybe there's still hope to get him . Cling to it fellas. Cling hard.

Acquiring a better player than the one currently on your roster isn't really an obstacle. Grandal was signed despite McCann existing. Having depth is also an acceptable thing, though Mazara and Pederson are pretty redundant I'll admit. Pederson can at least fake it in CF and would allow extra options in both corner OF spots, 1B, and DH in case of injury.

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42 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Except that they already have a RF , they would have had to beat the Angels offer in a very short window of time, then trade Mazara for God knows what since every team would know they are stuck with 2 LH starting RF's and look foolish in the process .

It's always just so simple isn't it ?

I'm not even sure that trade is done yet. Ohh maybe there's still hope to get him . Cling to it fellas. Cling hard.

So far it looks like Pederson and Stripling for Rengifo and 2 prospects which makes all these arguments more bizarre because no one can say for sure that the Angels got a great deal.

There are so many fake obstacles in here it’s ridiculous. Oh they’d have to beat the angels offer in a short amount of time?!?!?! They’d have to trade a player teams know they don’t need? Why that hasn’t happened since...the last time Mazara was traded. It can’t be done dammit!

I’ll give shorthand to the last 13 pages: any move the Sox make is not only the best move, but the only move that could ever have been possible forever and ever amen.

 

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Let's see the official full details before saying we should have acquired him, shall we? There's 4 names comfirmed but other prospects as well.

Edited by soxfan2014
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Not sure if been mentioned before but some players and families do have good relationships with organizations. It’s not entirely out of the question the LAD wanted to treat Joc right and keep him in or close to LA with his family If they were going to move him. 

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