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3 minutes ago, Butter Parque said:

How much more can others do before they lift themselves up and search out something better?

It's hard to lift yourself up with a knee on your neck. Literally and metaphorically. 

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24 minutes ago, Butter Parque said:

But brainwashing the white youth into walking around with some sort of generational guilt is a good thing for their prospects in life?

It is much better to say F those kids for not figuring out how to get past it.  I mean what is the worst that could happen?

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19 minutes ago, Butter Parque said:

You go talk to them. Go into Social Work if you'd like and you can make all the house-calls you please. 

I don't want to talk to them. If they had a mother and a father around who disciplined them, who made it a requirement for them to perform in the classroom, I don't believe they'd need to turn to drug-dealing as a means to get by. 

As a taxpayer, I'm often paying for their school breakfast, school lunch, section 8 housing, WIC/EBT. How much more can others do before they lift themselves up and search out something better?

It would help if you would realize that the price of not getting people out of poverty IS the price all of the things that you listed.  You are using this bootstraps mentality for people who don't have boots.

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17 minutes ago, Texsox said:

It's hard to lift yourself up with a knee on your neck. Literally and metaphorically. 

You can believe that if you'd like.

I believe the knee on their neck is the upbringing they have within their family structure. 

None of the endless amounts of social programs we have is going to move that knee. 

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11 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

It would help if you would realize that the price of not getting people out of poverty IS the price all of the things that you listed.  You are using this bootstraps mentality for people who don't have boots.

Again, I pay for countless social programs so that those in poverty have food, shelter, medical care, etc.

I pay for the extra police needed to patrol their dangerous neighborhoods. 

I pay for the creation of these charter schools so that they have access to an even better education than their current schools can afford them. 

There are endless amounts of scholarships made available specifically for African-Americans.

In my field, if they are the owner of their business, they are guaranteed a piece of the government contracts that go out for bid. 

You need to be specific on why they don't have boots after all of that.

 

Edited by Butter Parque

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15 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

It is much better to say F those kids for not figuring out how to get past it.  I mean what is the worst that could happen?

No, it's not an overnight solution. You need today's generation to stick around and actually raise their children. 

I believe that would have an enormous effect on the lives of those children and their prospects over the next decades. 

Treating them like troglodytes, who have no hope and no purpose helps no one. 

Edited by Butter Parque

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3 minutes ago, Butter Parque said:

You can believe that if you'd like.

I believe the knee on their neck is the upbringing they have within their family structure. 

None of the endless amounts of social programs we have is going to move that knee. 

It is absolutely family structure.  That family structure is a result of 400 years of discrimination and policies designed to make the black family a second class citizen in the United States.  Generations of wealth concentrated in one structure doesn't change overnight.  Neither do the repercussions of segregation and slavery.  People whose lives were stunted due to segregation are still raising families.  They still believe the system is stacked against them, and are teaching kids that education is worthless because the system was designed to make them fail.  Then they turn on TV and see George Floyd getting choked out by a cop.  They see that people with black names on resumes are less likely to get call backs than people with white names.  They see themselves as more likely to go to jail for the same crimes than white people are.  They see themselves pulled over and harassed more often than white people.  The see a rich person commit discrimination, tax fraud and defraud a charity, but get elected President.

You want to tell them their life experiences are invalid?  I can't anymore.

No poverty programs aren't going to push them into a higher social structure.  But neither is the bootstraps myth.

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4 minutes ago, Butter Parque said:

Again, I pay for countless social programs so that those in poverty have food, shelter, medical care, etc.

I pay for the extra police needed to patrol their dangerous neighborhoods. 

I pay for the creation of these charter schools so that they have access to an even better education than their current schools can afford them. 

There are endless amounts of scholarships made available specifically for African-Americans.

In my field, if they are the owner of their business, they are guaranteed a piece of the government contracts that go out for bid. 

You need to be specific on why they don't have boots after all of that.

 

Charter schools?  For poor black kids?  You don't know a lot about Charter schools do you.

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10 minutes ago, Butter Parque said:

You can believe that if you'd like.

I believe the knee on their neck is the upbringing they have within their family structure. 

None of the endless amounts of social programs we have is going to move that knee. 

As long as people think in terms of us and them, it will continue to be inequitable. 

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1 minute ago, Butter Parque said:

No, it's not an overnight solution. You need today's generation to stick around and actually raise their children. 

I believe that would have an enormous effect on the lives of those children and their prospects over the next decades. 

No, people like you need to stop looking down on people and teach adults and kids that the really do have a way out AND ACTUALLY MEAN IT.  People raise their kids with no hope, because they have no hope.  That's what 400 years of boot on your neck does to you.

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5 minutes ago, Butter Parque said:

Again, I pay for countless social programs so that those in poverty have food, shelter, medical care, etc.

I pay for the extra police needed to patrol their dangerous neighborhoods. 

I pay for the creation of these charter schools so that they have access to an even better education than their current schools can afford them. 

There are endless amounts of scholarships made available specifically for African-Americans.

In my field, if they are the owner of their business, they are guaranteed a piece of the government contracts that go out for bid. 

You need to be specific on why they don't have boots after all of that.

 

It's almost like you think they owe you something for all you pay for. 

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2 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

It is absolutely family structure.  That family structure is a result of 400 years of discrimination and policies designed to make the black family a second class citizen in the United States.  Generations of wealth concentrated in one structure doesn't change overnight.  Neither do the repercussions of segregation and slavery.  People whose lives were stunted due to segregation are still raising families.  They still believe the system is stacked against them, and are teaching kids that education is worthless because the system was designed to make them fail.  Then they turn on TV and see George Floyd getting choked out by a cop.  They see that people with black names on resumes are less likely to get call backs than people with white names.  They see themselves as more likely to go to jail for the same crimes than white people are.  They see themselves pulled over and harassed more often than white people.  The see a rich person commit discrimination, tax fraud and defraud a charity, but get elected President.

You want to tell them their life experiences are invalid?  I can't anymore.

No poverty programs aren't going to push them into a higher social structure.  But neither is the bootstraps myth.

This is all very trite. 

Whether you're white or black, tell your kids that they have no chance for success and don't be shocked if they achieve nothing. 

If they want to teach their kids that there's a boogeyman out there to get them if they are attempt to succeed, then let me keep my tax dollars because they have no hope anyway. 

The idea that all blacks are being held down by this invisible force is just insane. I don't know, go to the office parks once in a while, there's plenty of African Americans out there earning a living. Most of them got an education. They pay taxes. I have doubts that any of them would resort to a level of lawlessness that includes burning down a building or stealing sneakers.  But I guess they snuck past the society that sought to oppress them. 

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1 hour ago, StrangeSox said:

 

 

Good. Now reopen Sandra Bland's case as well.

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2 hours ago, Texsox said:

It's almost like you think they owe you something for all you pay for. 

I've seen that attitude displayed. It's really a shame. 

Also almost??? People with that attitude actually do think that people that take government assistance owe them. 

Edited by Jack Parkman

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7 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

No, people like you need to stop looking down on people and teach adults and kids that the really do have a way out AND ACTUALLY MEAN IT.  People raise their kids with no hope, because they have no hope.  That's what 400 years of boot on your neck does to you.

That's the ultimate irony.

You're making an argument that blacks have no hope, but I'm the one who's looking down on them?

Have a good day. The weather is nice over here.  

 

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2 minutes ago, Butter Parque said:

This is all very trite. 

Whether you're white or black, tell your kids that they have no chance for success and don't be shocked if they achieve nothing. 

If they want to teach their kids that there's a boogeyman out there to get them if they are attempt to succeed, then let me keep my tax dollars because they have no hope anyway. 

The idea that all blacks are being held down by this invisible force is just insane. I don't know, go to the office parks once in a while, there's plenty of African Americans out there earning a living. Most of them got an education. They pay taxes. I have doubts that any of them would resort to a level of lawlessness that includes burning down a building or stealing sneakers.  But I guess they snuck past the society that sought to oppress them. 

The fact that you refuse to acknowledge the forces holding them down is what's insane. 

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10 minutes ago, Texsox said:

As long as people think in terms of us and them, it will continue to be inequitable. 

So go help them. Do all you can. See if it moves the needle. 

The trillions spent in government programs haven't helped. Maybe billions in reparations will. 

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Just now, Jack Parkman said:

The fact that you refuse to acknowledge the forces holding them down is what's insane. 

Yes, it's a mighty force. It's absent parents, little household discipline, very little emphasis on education.

I don't blame the kids. I blame the parents. 

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3 hours ago, Joshua Strong said:

A must read article by Ta-Neshi Coates of the Atlantic (he also just ended his run on Black Panther for Marvel). 
 

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case-for-reparations/361631/

This article's a few years old, but the focus of it is early and mid-20th century housing and educational policy/funding. He focused on Chicago. 

Even if you don't come to the same ultimate conclusion as him, it's a thorough review of decades and really centuries of the prevention of accumulation of black wealth and the looting of whatever wealth the community obtains.

Quote

 

The lives of black Americans are better than they were half a century ago. The humiliation of whites only signs are gone. Rates of black poverty have decreased. Black teen-pregnancy rates are at record lows—and the gap between black and white teen-pregnancy rates has shrunk significantly. But such progress rests on a shaky foundation, and fault lines are everywhere. The income gap between black and white households is roughly the same today as it was in 1970. Patrick Sharkey, a sociologist at New York University, studied children born from 1955 through 1970 and found that 4 percent of whites and 62 percent of blacks across America had been raised in poor neighborhoods. A generation later, the same study showed, virtually nothing had changed. And whereas whites born into affluent neighborhoods tended to remain in affluent neighborhoods, blacks tended to fall out of them.

This is not surprising. Black families, regardless of income, are significantly less wealthy than white families. The Pew Research Center estimates that white households are worth roughly 20 times as much as black households, and that whereas only 15 percent of whites have zero or negative wealth, more than a third of blacks do. Effectively, the black family in America is working without a safety net. When financial calamity strikes—a medical emergency, divorce, job loss—the fall is precipitous.

And just as black families of all incomes remain handicapped by a lack of wealth, so too do they remain handicapped by their restricted choice of neighborhood. Black people with upper-middle-class incomes do not generally live in upper-middle-class neighborhoods. Sharkey’s research shows that black families making $100,000 typically live in the kinds of neighborhoods inhabited by white families making $30,000. “Blacks and whites inhabit such different neighborhoods,” Sharkey writes, “that it is not possible to compare the economic outcomes of black and white children.”

 

edit: there's an ancient filibuster thread on the article as well as others like his "The Ghetto is Public Policy" which iirc was a genesis for the much larger article you linked

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/05/the-ghetto-is-public-policy/275456/

 

 

edit: I had asked Prof. Sharkey for some more info back when the article came out:

 

Quote

 

 Me: Iwas hoping you might be able to elaborate a little bit or point me to the citation for the part about "black families making $100,000 typically live in the kinds of neighborhoods inhabited by white families making $30,000. “Blacks and whites inhabit such different neighborhoods,” Sharkey writes, “that it is not possible to compare the economic outcomes of black and white children.”"

 

Why does that remain true today? What is it that prevents the upper-middle class black family from moving into a typical $100,000 neighborhood and instead leaves them stuck in a $30k neighborhood? Any incite you could provide would be greatly appreciated.

 

 

Quote

 

Prof. Sharkey:

Thanks for your note. You might want to check out the paper that generated this statistic: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25032266/

 

Lots of factors lead to this: continuing discrimination; informal hostility toward blacks; remnants of housing policy from decades ago; continuing zoning policies that constrain the housing options of nonwhites; preferences among affluent members of all groups to not live w African Americans.

 

This article is probably the best analysis of why these discrepancies exist and are not explained by wealth and income: http://asr.sagepub.com/content/77/3/354.abstract

 

 

Edited by StrangeSox

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10 minutes ago, Texsox said:

It's almost like you think they owe you something for all you pay for. 

They owe themselves and their family a better life than they have. 

I've repeatedly stated how they can provide a better future for their kids.

 

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3 minutes ago, Butter Parque said:

That's the ultimate irony.

You're making an argument that blacks have no hope, but I'm the one who's looking down on them?

Have a good day. The weather is nice over here.  

 

Yeah, I don't know why people are upset enough to riot and burn things.  It must be because I don't think they can do anything.  It can't be generations of social and economic policy designed to make them fail.

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1 minute ago, Butter Parque said:

Yes, it's a mighty force. It's absent parents, little household discipline, very little emphasis on education.

I don't blame the kids. I blame the parents. 

But you're arguing that as a society we abandon the children, outside of brutally policing them.

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1 minute ago, StrangeSox said:

This article's a few years old, but the focus of it is early and mid-20th century housing and educational policy/funding. He focused on Chicago. 

Even if you don't come to the same ultimate conclusion as him, it's a thorough review of decades and really centuries of the prevention of accumulation of black wealth and the looting of whatever wealth the community obtains.

 

And because of that they attend lesser funded schools...  I mean you can see this at every level of attainment.

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1 minute ago, Butter Parque said:

They owe themselves and their family a better life than they have. 

I've repeatedly stated how they can provide a better future for their kids.

 

Almost got a "those people" that time.

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1 minute ago, StrangeSox said:

But you're arguing that as a society we abandon the children, outside of brutally policing them.

Last post for today, as everyone is just reiterating everything they've already said.

I didn't say abandon. Like I said, there are more programs currently in place to help those in poverty than I can fit into this text box. At some point, you have to make the effort too. 

I don't think I ever mentioned "brutally policing" them. But, yes, there should be cops in those neighborhoods if you're interested in keeping blacks safe. 

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