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MADRIGAL CALLED UP! (Herrera DFA)

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5 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

Schwarber at #4 was considered an overdraft at the time. He was considered to be a teens level pick.

I don't even get the issue if Schwarber was playing in the AL he'd be just fine the issue he has and for the cubs is they can't hide him defensively and 1B is already taken but he'll get paid a decent figure for his bat if/when he hits FA. How is he some sort of cautionary tale?

Hell we are paying a 37 year old Edwin 12M and Abreu 50m/3. So if you look at it from the perspective had we drafted someone like Schwarber instead then that would have freed 12m=17 to buy some pitching or spend on a 2B and Schwarber is a massive upgrade over Edwin and Abreu as well at this point in their careers.

But enough about getting sidetracked on Schwarber

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11 minutes ago, wrathofhahn said:

I don't even get the issue if Schwarber was playing in the AL he'd be just fine the issue he has and for the cubs is they can't hide him defensively and 1B is already taken but he'll get paid a decent figure for his bat if/when he hits FA. How is he some sort of cautionary tale?

Hell we are paying a 37 year old Edwin 12M and Abreu 50m/3. So if you look at it from the perspective had we drafted someone like Schwarber instead then that would have freed 12m=17 to buy some pitching or spend on a 2B and Schwarber is a massive upgrade over Edwin and Abreu as well at this point in their careers.

But enough about getting sidetracked on Schwarber

He’s just using the example of Schwarber to demonstrate that it’s actually pretty rare to draft contributing talent even in the first round as a sure thing... pointing out that he was ranked to go much later, in the late teens.

Past some 1-1 and 1-2 guys in a lot of years... and even including them in others, the MLB draft is an educated crap shoot.

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3 hours ago, hi8is said:

He’s just using the example of Schwarber to demonstrate that it’s actually pretty rare to draft contributing talent even in the first round as a sure thing... pointing out that he was ranked to go much later, in the late teens.

Past some 1-1 and 1-2 guys in a lot of years... and even including them in others, the MLB draft is an educated crap shoot.

See Brady Aiken, Tyler Kolek and Carlos Rodon...or Gordon Beckham's draft class.

Edited by caulfield12

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1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

Gordon Beckham's draft class.

At least we selected James McCann in the 31st round! Too bad we didn’t take Charlie Blackmon or Garett Cole at the 8 slot instead of Beckham. 😆

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1 hour ago, hi8is said:

At least we selected James McCann in the 31st round! Too bad we didn’t take Charlie Blackmon or Garett Cole at the 8 slot instead of Beckham. 😆

But they also could have drafted Kyle skipworth at 6.

Name is very fitting:)

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7 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

White Sox fans will definitely argue Jimenez over Rosario, but it's not even close on fWAR.   Rosario's a better all-around player, for sure, but Jimenez is going to end up the much more impactful hitter.

Donaldson's a HoF 3B, in all probability, and 90% of Twins' fans would pick him over Moncada, but arguably only for 2020 (at most) and not beyond.

Rosario is productive but also casual in LF and little plate discipline. Moncada will have a better year than Josh  I believe. 

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14 minutes ago, pcq said:

Rosario is productive but also casual in LF and little plate discipline. Moncada will have a better year than Josh  I believe. 

He's pretty much average around a 2 fWAR for his big league career.

Just the last three seasons, it's 7.3, so closer to 2.4.    How easy is it going to be for Jimenez to break 3 with his woeful defense?

Edited by caulfield12

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https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/white-sox/white-sox-talk-podcast-nick-madrigals-college-coach-says-guy-going-be-superstar

Well worth another listen...

After the White Sox drafted Oregon State's Nick Madrigal in the first round Monday night, we called up Pat Casey, Madrigal's head coach at Oregon State, who came on the podcast and raved about the newest star of the White Sox rebuild.

Casey spoke about why Madrigal is the only sole captain he's ever had on his team, why his 5-foot-8 frame doesn't matter and where he thinks Madrigal is actually better than Dustin Pedroia. He also talks about Madrigal's hitting, defense and if he can play shortstop in the big leagues. Finally, he told the story of how he offered Madrigal a scholarship to Oregon State when he was in eighth grade.

It's all below — and at this link — on the latest edition of the White Sox Talk Podcast.

 

2007 Red Sox 139 581 8 86 50 7 8.1% 7.2% .125 .333 .317 .380 .442 .364 117 0.0 12.8 5.3 3.7
2008 Red Sox 157 726 17 118 83 20 6.9% 7.2% .167 .331 .326 .376 .493 .377 127 2.3 26.4 12.1 6.4
2009 Red Sox 154 714 15 115 72 20 10.4% 6.3% .152 .297 .296 .371 .447 .359 112 0.6 11.1 10.7 4.7
2010 Red Sox 75 351 12 53 41 9 10.5% 10.8% .205 .291 .288 .367 .493 .373 128 1.6 13.3 5.5 3.2
2011 Red Sox 159 731 21 102 91 26 11.8% 11.6% .167 .325 .307 .387 .474 .375 133 2.1 30.0 20.5 7.9
2012 Red Sox 141 623 15 81 65 20 7.7% 9.6% .160 .300 .290 .347 .449 .344 114 0.1 10.1 10.1 4.3
2013 Red Sox 160 724 9 91 84 17 10.1% 10.4% .114 .326 .301 .372 .415 .347 114 -0.7 11.1 10.4 4.9
2014 Red Sox 135 609 7 72 53 6 8.4% 12.3% .098 .307 .278 .337 .376 .318 98 -1.0 -2.2 17.7 3.8
2015 Red Sox 93 425 12 46 42 2 8.9% 12.0% .150 .308 .291 .356 .441 .347 117 -0.9 7.3 0.6 2.3
2016 Red Sox 154 698 15 105 74 7 8.7% 10.5% .131 .339 .318 .376 .449 .358 121 -4.3 13.2 11.1 4.9
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I think madrigal has a movement flaw causing him to lose power. He loads his hips nicely and loads his hands too but his back is extremely stiff.

I did this comparision with Cruz who is much more flexible with the spine as he slightly turns the spine in and bends the front shoulder slightly down.

That causes the upper and lower half of nick being kinda disconnected while Nellie has the lower and upper half nicely connected with that more flexible spine and thus better separation and torque in the body.

I have changed that with some kids I have worked with.

This won't make him nelson Cruz of course but it could possibly raise his EV by a couple MPH.

 

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7 hours ago, wrathofhahn said:

I don't even get the issue if Schwarber was playing in the AL he'd be just fine the issue he has and for the cubs is they can't hide him defensively and 1B is already taken but he'll get paid a decent figure for his bat if/when he hits FA. How is he some sort of cautionary tale?

Hell we are paying a 37 year old Edwin 12M and Abreu 50m/3. So if you look at it from the perspective had we drafted someone like Schwarber instead then that would have freed 12m=17 to buy some pitching or spend on a 2B and Schwarber is a massive upgrade over Edwin and Abreu as well at this point in their careers.

But enough about getting sidetracked on Schwarber

How he turned out is actually kind of secondary.  The focus has been more about who was projected AT THE TIME to be those picks, though at the same time, it is worth mentioning that Schwarber even then was considered an "over-draft" because his potential tools gave him the look of a very limited player in the long run as everyone knew he wouldn't stick at catcher, and that he would struggle to find a defensive position, but that the Cubs were convinced enough that the tool set he had would be enough to carry him to a quality major league career, when compared to players who were projected in that top five slot, but had a much larger difference between floor and ceiling, giving them a much higher bust chance. When you look at the next set of picks going out to #10 in the first round, the next guy who had the most success was also a guy who was viewed as a limited ceiling guy in Aaron Nola.  if you look at the entire top 10 that year, only Michael Conforto has done anything worth mentioning so far, and he was picked at #10.  The rest of the position players picked were busts.  Really by going "safer" in the top 10, the Cubs and Phillies had two of the best drafts in the top 10.  Sure they could have had Trey Turner or Michael Kopech later, but they also could have had Brady Aiken or Tyler Kolek and had nothing to show for their pick.  Again, while they might not have hit a home run, they got themselves serviceable starters by taking players who were thought of as "safer" or "limited ceilings" when more star potential was on the board.

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4 minutes ago, Dominikk85 said:

I think madrigal has a movement flaw causing him to lose power. He loads his hips nicely and loads his hands too but his back is extremely stiff.

I did this comparision with Cruz who is much more flexible with the spine as he slightly turns the spine in and bends the front shoulder slightly down.

That causes the upper and lower half of nick being kinda disconnected while Nellie has the lower and upper half nicely connected with that more flexible spine and thus better separation and torque in the body.

I have changed that with some kids I have worked with.

This won't make him nelson Cruz of course but it could possibly raise his EV by a couple MPH.

 

The interesting thing was he had an EV of 112 on one of his hits yesterday, so hard hit ball possibility is there.

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Madrigal doesn't have much pull in his swing for better and worse he's never gonna flip his hips and dump a ball into the concourse in right.  The load mechanism he uses seems to maximize the time he has to commit to any given pitch and he makes it work.  He could shorten it and sell out for power but I don't think that's his game.  He has excelled with his approach at every level so if it ain't broke don't fix it.

 

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6 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Madrigal doesn't have much pull in his swing for better and worse he's never gonna flip his hips and dump a ball into the concourse in right.  The load mechanism he uses seems to maximize the time he has to commit to any given pitch and he makes it work.  He could shorten it and sell out for power but I don't think that's his game.  He has excelled with his approach at every level so if it ain't broke don't fix it.

 

He doesn't have to fix it but Altuve did make changes and still was a 300 hitter after that while going from 10 to 30 bombs. I think he could use a little bigger load and still hit for good average.

The 112 is interesting. He did get stronger and probably gained 10-15 pounds but I wonder if that wasn't a misread by statcast. If true that would be a good sign and mean he has potential for 25 plus bombs if he hits at the right angles.

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13 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Madrigal doesn't have much pull in his swing for better and worse he's never gonna flip his hips and dump a ball into the concourse in right.  The load mechanism he uses seems to maximize the time he has to commit to any given pitch and he makes it work.  He could shorten it and sell out for power but I don't think that's his game.  He has excelled with his approach at every level so if it ain't broke don't fix it.

 

I don’t know if/how it matters, but Madrigal’s warm up swing looks very stiff. It’s like he’s reminding himself to keep his shoulder in a certain position. I have a friend who took golf lessons and would do the me thing before tee off. He would slowly go through the swing he was taught, but when he actually swung the club, he didn’t just let it rip. He kept the same mechanic and had zero power.

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35 minutes ago, Middle Buffalo said:

I don’t know if/how it matters, but Madrigal’s warm up swing looks very stiff. It’s like he’s reminding himself to keep his shoulder in a certain position. I have a friend who took golf lessons and would do the me thing before tee off. He would slowly go through the swing he was taught, but when he actually swung the club, he didn’t just let it rip. He kept the same mechanic and had zero power.

I think that warmup swing is to remind him of not rolling over because he goal is to hit a straight line the other way. Votto has a similar on deck swing.

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1 hour ago, Dominikk85 said:

He doesn't have to fix it but Altuve did make changes and still was a 300 hitter after that while going from 10 to 30 bombs. I think he could use a little bigger load and still hit for good average.

The 112 is interesting. He did get stronger and probably gained 10-15 pounds but I wonder if that wasn't a misread by statcast. If true that would be a good sign and mean he has potential for 25 plus bombs if he hits at the right angles.

I think knowing what pitch was coming really helped.. I am interested to see how many Altuve gets next year when he actually doesnt know

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5 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

How he turned out is actually kind of secondary.  The focus has been more about who was projected AT THE TIME to be those picks, though at the same time, it is worth mentioning that Schwarber even then was considered an "over-draft" because his potential tools gave him the look of a very limited player in the long run as everyone knew he wouldn't stick at catcher, and that he would struggle to find a defensive position, but that the Cubs were convinced enough that the tool set he had would be enough to carry him to a quality major league career, when compared to players who were projected in that top five slot, but had a much larger difference between floor and ceiling, giving them a much higher bust chance. When you look at the next set of picks going out to #10 in the first round, the next guy who had the most success was also a guy who was viewed as a limited ceiling guy in Aaron Nola.  if you look at the entire top 10 that year, only Michael Conforto has done anything worth mentioning so far, and he was picked at #10.  The rest of the position players picked were busts.  Really by going "safer" in the top 10, the Cubs and Phillies had two of the best drafts in the top 10.  Sure they could have had Trey Turner or Michael Kopech later, but they also could have had Brady Aiken or Tyler Kolek and had nothing to show for their pick.  Again, while they might not have hit a home run, they got themselves serviceable starters by taking players who were thought of as "safer" or "limited ceilings" when more star potential was on the board.

So I don't understand was he a risky pick or not because on one hand you say he was safe and on the other you say his defensive limitations made him a risky pick because everyone knew he would be moved off catcher?

My point was in the AL all that really matters is like Eloy if he can hit. We have 1B/DH/LF to hide guys with defensive limitations and one of the most frustrating things as a baseball fan is watching AL clubs invest 300m in a position player then trot out a scrub at DH. Teams even in this day and age are obsessed with WAR instead of constructing a baseball team.

Bringing the subject back to Madrigal the issue for him is with his frame he either has two options either change his approach at the plate and pull the ball  or forgo hitting HR's in favor of avg. I actually don't want him pulling the ball much because while people mention Dustin Pedroia and Altuve Madrigal isn't going to be transported into Fenway park and hit a bunch of cheapies he also isn't going to get the pitches ahead of time. So people need to take away the outliers for someone of his stature and think rationally based on what similar hitters like Eckstein profile as.

There is also risk in changing his approach I remember when Aaron Hill was brought up he used the entire field. Now he had more natural power in his bat then Madrigal but then someone got a hold of him (Murphy) and changed his swing where he was pulling every pitch and while he had some great seasons for the most part it completely screwed up his career

Edited by wrathofhahn

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13 minutes ago, wrathofhahn said:

So I don't understand was he a risky pick or not because on one hand you say he was safe and on the other you say his defensive limitations made him a risky pick because everyone knew he would be moved off catcher?

My point was in the AL all that really matters is like Eloy if he can hit. We have 1B/DH/LF to hide guys with defensive limitations and one of the most frustrating things as a baseball fan is watching AL clubs invest 300m in a position player then trot out a scrub at DH. Teams even in this day and age are obsessed with WAR instead of constructing a baseball team.

His hit tool and power tools were amongst the safest in baseball.  He had no position, which pushed him way down.

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1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

The interesting thing was he had an EV of 112 on one of his hits yesterday, so hard hit ball possibility is there.

I had no idea this was true, and in a very SSS his statcast numbers are pretty promising:

V3mmgFr.png

His 112 is the 3rd highest max EV on the team, and he does have 4 hard hit balls in 3 games.

To me, it is really interesting that, even with that 112 MPH contact, he has 0  barrels so far. The LA on that one (and all his hard hit balls really) must have been terrible. I think his lack of HR power may be more of an approach/swing thing than a body thing.

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12 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

His hit tool and power tools were amongst the safest in baseball.  He had no position, which pushed him way down.

Well I would disagree there wasn't risk because he needed to be an elite hitter at the next level to justify taking him there.

For example if you look at a guy like CJ Cron who who fell into the mid teens during the 2011 draft and was also viewed similarly coming out (major slugger at catcher) what he has done the last two years isn't seen as overly valuable despite him being a good hitter (113+ OPS the last two years) he signed for 1/6M in the offseason,

That was sort of the risk.

My issue with the previous poster who brought it up is they made it seem like he wasn't some sort of success story for the cubs when he clearly is.

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18 hours ago, soxfan49 said:

It's funny because I was actually thinking the same earlier and so I looked. Polanco had many years with an OPS over .750. He won a few GG's too. This is a good comparison and we should all be thrilled if Madrigal ends up with PP's career.

very similar players. I think NM will double PP's walk rate. Probably only half the homers though. if he ends up hitting 1st or 2nd he'll score

about a million runs every year with our line up.

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I'll say this: Madrigal should absolutley not hit at the top of the order, this lineup has too many dynamic athletes and well rounded hitters to have Nick anywhere but the bottom. I like him just fine in the 9 hole. Robert - Moncada - Eloy is your top 3 for the next 7 years IMO.

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1 minute ago, Kalapse said:

I'll say this: Madrigal should absolutley not hit at the top of the order, this lineup has too many dynamic athletes and well rounded hitters to have Nick anywhere but the bottom. I like him just fine in the 9 hole. Robert - Moncada - Eloy is your top 3 for the next 7 years IMO.

And if Madrigal truly turns out to be the on-base menace that many think he will be, having him at #9 to turn it over to those three sluggers will be an awesome configuration. 

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1 hour ago, Jose Abreu said:

And if Madrigal truly turns out to be the on-base menace that many think he will be, having him at #9 to turn it over to those three sluggers will be an awesome configuration. 

not sure yet about Robert and Eloys on base skills. its pretty obvious they both have 40HR power. OBA and good base running in front of those 2 either

from #9 or lead off will work out fine.

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Robert long term in the lead off spot seems like a waste to me. He should have the maximum amount of at bats with runners on base possible. I would go with Moncada, Robert, Jimenez at 2,3,4. 

Edited by Vulture

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