2021 Offseason Prediction: Who We Lose and What Will Be Our Needs?

[Balta1701]

8 minutes ago, Flash said:

Would we consider trading Eloy (Baseball Trade Values...Eloy = Woodruff + Hader in trade value)? Maybe Eloy plus Lopez and Collins for Woodruff, Hader and Braun?

I believe the Brewers would/should say no to that. 

[MeanJoeCrede]

23 minutes ago, ChiSox1917 said:

Hes barely an upgrade over mazara.  No thanks.

i will never understand this boards fascination with joc pederson

He's two years younger than Springer, millions of dollars cheaper, and has an OPS of .854, OPS+ of 130 against right handers. Use the money on pitching.

[ChiSox1917]

5 minutes ago, MeanJoeCrede said:

He's two years younger than Springer, millions of dollars cheaper, and has an OPS of .854, OPS+ of 130 against right handers. Use the money on pitching.

Id rather take the chance on giving mazara one more year and figuring it out.  As i said, joc isnt that much of an improvement over mazara.  And hell hes having just as bad a year or worse than nomar is this year.  
 

[bmags]

7 minutes ago, ChiSox1917 said:

Id rather take the chance on giving mazara one more year and figuring it out.  As i said, joc isnt that much of an improvement over mazara.  And hell hes having just as bad a year or worse than nomar is this year.  
 

Joc has been 30% better offensively over his career than Mazara and 20% better this year. 
 

That is much of an improvement

[YourWhatHurts]

Woodruff is excellent but there's no way I'd trade Vaughn for him.  No interest in Hader.  He's not far away from being an uber expensive RP.  I'd rather bid on him as a FA than give up elite talent for a RP, especially an expensive RP.

There's no way I would trade Vaughn in any Woodruff/Hader package because IMO he'll end up the best player in the deal.  Any deal with Vaughn, he's got a great chance at ending up as the best player in it.  

I don't think we need to trade for controllable SP.  We can run out Giolito-Keuchel-Cease-Kopech-Dunning next year with maybe Lambert and Stiever in the mix.  If we are going to add to SP via trade, who do you upgrade over?  I think the Sox are in a spot where they are better off not trading for SP unless they can pay a price of Stiever+lesser pieces to upgrade over Dunning who has the lowest ceiling of the group.  But even then he's also got the highest floor and is very likely to settle in as a 3/4 who eats up 200+ IP per season, so why even try to upgrade over that?

[bmags]

6 minutes ago, YourWhatHurts said:

Woodruff is excellent but there's no way I'd trade Vaughn for him.  No interest in Hader.  He's not far away from being an uber expensive RP.  I'd rather bid on him as a FA than give up elite talent for a RP, especially an expensive RP.

There's no way I would trade Vaughn in any Woodruff/Hader package because IMO he'll end up the best player in the deal.  Any deal with Vaughn, he's got a great chance at ending up as the best player in it.  

I don't think we need to trade for controllable SP.  We can run out Giolito-Keuchel-Cease-Kopech-Dunning next year with maybe Lambert and Stiever in the mix.  If we are going to add to SP via trade, who do you upgrade over?  I think the Sox are in a spot where they are better off not trading for SP unless they can pay a price of Stiever+lesser pieces to upgrade over Dunning who has the lowest ceiling of the group.  But even then he's also got the highest floor and is very likely to settle in as a 3/4 who eats up 200+ IP per season, so why even try to upgrade over that?

This is true. Relievers have been getting paid really well in arb. I mean we paid Colome nearly 20 mill over 2 years. We’d be getting control and a discount but not a large one.

[YourWhatHurts]

I want Devers.  I posted this is another thread, but a package for Devers excites me.

Short-term view / Longterm view:

C Grandal / Grandal

1B Abreu / Vaughn

2B Madrigal / Madrigal

3B Devers / Devers (extend this guy immediately)

DH Eloy / Eloy

SS Anderson / Anderson

LF Vaughn / Moncada

RF Moncada / FA or trade acquisition

CF Robert / Robert

[iWiN4PreP]

7 minutes ago, YourWhatHurts said:

Woodruff is excellent but there's no way I'd trade Vaughn for him.  No interest in Hader.  He's not far away from being an uber expensive RP.  I'd rather bid on him as a FA than give up elite talent for a RP, especially an expensive RP.

There's no way I would trade Vaughn in any Woodruff/Hader package because IMO he'll end up the best player in the deal.  Any deal with Vaughn, he's got a great chance at ending up as the best player in it.  

I don't think we need to trade for controllable SP.  We can run out Giolito-Keuchel-Cease-Kopech-Dunning next year with maybe Lambert and Stiever in the mix.  If we are going to add to SP via trade, who do you upgrade over?  I think the Sox are in a spot where they are better off not trading for SP unless they can pay a price of Stiever+lesser pieces to upgrade over Dunning who has the lowest ceiling of the group.  But even then he's also got the highest floor and is very likely to settle in as a 3/4 who eats up 200+ IP per season, so why even try to upgrade over that?

You have too much confidence in Kopech if you think he's going to give us more than like 80 innings next year (and who's to say those will be good).

I know we are all hyped on Dunning, but it's been 2 great (short) starts in his MLB career. There's still a strong chance that he's more of a SP4/5 rather than anything super good right now.

Keuchel has out performed his stats and will be a year older next year. 

This rotation is built on crumbles right now. Lots of 'hope'. 

[iWiN4PreP]

1 minute ago, YourWhatHurts said:

I want Devers.  I posted this is another thread, but a package for Devers excites me.

Short-term view / Longterm view:

C Grandal / Grandal

1B Abreu / Vaughn

2B Madrigal / Madrigal

3B Devers / Devers (extend this guy immediately)

DH Eloy / Eloy

SS Anderson / Anderson

LF Vaughn / Moncada

RF Moncada / FA or trade acquisition

CF Robert / Robert

Where does this come from? Why would the Red Sox give up Devers? Why would you target him and move an oft-injured Moncada to the outfield ??

[ChiSox1917]

30 minutes ago, bmags said:

Joc has been 30% better offensively over his career than Mazara and 20% better this year. 
 

That is much of an improvement

Joc has had 15% of his career at bats against lefties.  Mazara has had 26% of his career at bats against lefties.  Both are atrocious at hitting lefties, but the dodgers flexibility allowed them to platoon joc while the rangers continued tossing mazara out there against lefties hurting his overall numbers.
 

joc is better than mazara, but not by much.  It makes no sense to sign him when we have mazara who is 3 years younger and still may figure it out.   
 

if we’re going to give up on mazara, then we should be going for springer.  Who even though hes a righty, hits righties just as well as joc

 

Edited September 4, 2020 by ChiSox1917

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

8 minutes ago, ChiSox1917 said:

Joc has had 15% of his career at bats against lefties.  Mazara has had 26% of his career at bats against lefties.  Both are atrocious at hitting lefties, but the dodgers flexibility allowed them to platoon joc while the rangers continued tossing mazara out there against lefties hurting his overall numbers.
 

joc is better than mazara, but not by much.  It makes no sense to sign him when we have mazara who is 3 years younger and still may figure it out.  

 

Mazara had been a model of consistency for 4 years. Sucks that whatever kept him out has kept him from producing at even those levels. His normal numbers against RH's would look pretty good right now.

 

[bmags]

11 minutes ago, ChiSox1917 said:

Joc has had 15% of his career at bats against lefties.  Mazara has had 26% of his career at bats against lefties.  Both are atrocious at hitting lefties, but the dodgers flexibility allowed them to platoon joc while the rangers continued tossing mazara out there against lefties hurting his overall numbers.
 

joc is better than mazara, but not by much.  It makes no sense to sign him when we have mazara who is 3 years younger and still may figure it out.   
 

if we’re going to give up on mazara, then we should be going for springer.  Who even though hes a righty, hits righties just as well as joc

 

He’s been 30% better vs RHP than Mazara and last I checked our lineup wasn’t getting hurt against left handers so who cares?

Cool, go for springer! But that doesn’t mean that, as you stated, Pederson isn’t much better than Mazara

[ChiSox1917]

8 minutes ago, bmags said:

He’s been 30% better vs RHP than Mazara and last I checked our lineup wasn’t getting hurt against left handers so who cares?

Cool, go for springer! But that doesn’t mean that, as you stated, Pederson isn’t much better than Mazara

.854 ops vs .789.  28yr old vs 25yr old.  130wrc vs 102 (although this year thats dropped to 99 for joc).  Both platoon guys but at least there might still be some potential left in the 25 year old.
 

Also, our lineup also isnt getting hurt by righties either.  We’re above league average against them.  

Edited September 4, 2020 by ChiSox1917

[YourWhatHurts]

Watching Mazara, I have no idea why this org which has seen the likes of Joe Borchard and Trayce Thompson decided they could "fix" Mazara.  I have no idea how this guy has ever managed to hit over .220 but regardless, taking away contact from a guy who already shouldn't make as much contact as he was making, to add more loft, was probably a pretty shitty idea that never should have been hatched.  Hopefully Mazara is to Menechino as Nestor Molina was to Marc Paddy, i.e. we hire a new guy and make a trade to bring in a player the new guy wants, but after realizing we fucked the pooch in doing so, we decide to kind of just let that player disappear off into the background and stop mentioning him, and make some necessary changes here and there, and try to forget it ever happened.

[bmags]

2 minutes ago, ChiSox1917 said:

.854 ops vs .789.  28yr old vs 25yr old.  130wrc vs 102.  Both platoon guys but at least there might still be some potential left in the 25 year old.
 

Also, our lineup also isnt getting hurt by righties either.  We’re above league average against them.  

yeah...those are big differences.

[ChiSox1917]

1 minute ago, bmags said:

yeah...those are big differences.

Not big enough to be buying another platoon guy in free agency over a guy 3 years younger.  

[YourWhatHurts]

I wouldn't touch Springer with a 10 ft pole.

Why can't we just platoon Joc with Engel?  Joc's deal isn't likely to become anything bad.

I think this is a real no-brainer here.  It's perfect.  We have our 2 4th OFers in a platoon, both who can play CF as a backup, and it opens another bench spot.  I'd actually overpay a bit if necessary on a 3-year deal to make that happen.  That flexibility will be terrific to have.

Springer is a bad contract waiting to happen IMO.  I'm only interested if it's January or February and he is still unsigned.

[Chicago White Sox]

19 minutes ago, bmags said:

He’s been 30% better vs RHP than Mazara and last I checked our lineup wasn’t getting hurt against left handers so who cares?

Cool, go for springer! But that doesn’t mean that, as you stated, Pederson isn’t much better than Mazara

I really don’t get the hate Joc has been getting as of late.  Offensively he’d be a perfect one year place-holder in RF until Cespedes or Colas is ready and allows you to commit larger financial resources to your pitching staff that is more likely to need them.

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

4 minutes ago, YourWhatHurts said:

I wouldn't touch Springer with a 10 ft pole.

Why can't we just platoon Joc with Engel?  Joc's deal isn't likely to become anything bad.

I think this is a real no-brainer here.  It's perfect.  We have our 2 4th OFers in a platoon, both who can play CF as a backup, and it opens another bench spot.  I'd actually overpay a bit if necessary on a 3-year deal to make that happen.  That flexibility will be terrific to have.

Springer is a bad contract waiting to happen IMO.  I'm only interested if it's January or February and he is still unsigned.

Because Engle isn't good enough to be in a strict platoon on a legit contender.. He is a perfect 4th outfielder for baserunning/defensive replacements every game and an occational start...

[knightni]

On 9/3/2020 at 11:03 AM, Vulture said:

Colome, Giles, S. Greene, Kela, Workman, Yates, Doolittle are pending free agents. Hand has a ten million option. You'd think that would be picked up, but with the Indians, who knows? Personally, I'd just go with Colome. The dude is a bulldog.

As for Quintana, I'd be willing to bet he pitches to 40. I don't think he's finished by a long shot. I'd rather have Bauer too, but Quintana would still be helpful IMO.

I don't see the Sox declining Leury's option. I think the bench will include him along with Mendick and Engle.

Giles is a clubhouse disturbance/cancer.

Doolittle is not a guarantee any longer

Hand is awful.

Kela hasn't had a save since 2018 and has been rarely used this year.

Workman has a 5 ERA

Yates has an ERA of near 13.

 

[ChiSox1917]

5 minutes ago, YourWhatHurts said:

I wouldn't touch Springer with a 10 ft pole.

Why can't we just platoon Joc with Engel?  Joc's deal isn't likely to become anything bad.

I think this is a real no-brainer here.  It's perfect.  We have our 2 4th OFers in a platoon, both who can play CF as a backup, and it opens another bench spot.  I'd actually overpay a bit if necessary on a 3-year deal to make that happen.  That flexibility will be terrific to have.

Springer is a bad contract waiting to happen IMO.  I'm only interested if it's January or February and he is still unsigned.

Starting adam engel for 50 games a year isnt what a team that should be shooting for a world series does.  Adams had a nice year, but hes outplaying his expected results due to a lot of luck and a small sample size.  If they sign joc, theyll then need to sign another platoon right fielder to hit against lefties.  Thats two free agents youll need to sign, not just the $10 mil or so for joc.

[southsider2k5]

13 minutes ago, YourWhatHurts said:

Watching Mazara, I have no idea why this org which has seen the likes of Joe Borchard and Trayce Thompson decided they could "fix" Mazara.  I have no idea how this guy has ever managed to hit over .220 but regardless, taking away contact from a guy who already shouldn't make as much contact as he was making, to add more loft, was probably a pretty shitty idea that never should have been hatched.  Hopefully Mazara is to Menechino as Nestor Molina was to Marc Paddy, i.e. we hire a new guy and make a trade to bring in a player the new guy wants, but after realizing we fucked the pooch in doing so, we decide to kind of just let that player disappear off into the background and stop mentioning him, and make some necessary changes here and there, and try to forget it ever happened.

Come on.  Have you not seen the roster we have now, and what they are doing?  Did you miss guys like Tatis, Abreu and Robert that came from Paddy?  Did you miss us having a guy like Tim Anderson? This take is a decade outdated.

[Chicago White Sox]

17 minutes ago, ChiSox1917 said:

.854 ops vs .789.  28yr old vs 25yr old.  130wrc vs 102 (although this year thats dropped to 99 for joc).  Both platoon guys but at least there might still be some potential left in the 25 year old.
 

Also, our lineup also isnt getting hurt by righties either.  We’re above league average against them.  

Do you realize how much better a 130 wRC+ is vs a 102 wRC+?

[southsider2k5]

20 minutes ago, ChiSox1917 said:

.854 ops vs .789.  28yr old vs 25yr old.  130wrc vs 102 (although this year thats dropped to 99 for joc).  Both platoon guys but at least there might still be some potential left in the 25 year old.
 

Also, our lineup also isnt getting hurt by righties either.  We’re above league average against them.  

This means he was literally 28% better.  That isn't like 28 OPS points here.  28 points is a BIG number here.

[ChiSox1917]

15 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Do you realize how much better a 130 wRC+ is vs a 102 wRC+?

Yes and ive repeatedly said joc is better. However he is 3 years older than mazara and will cost more than mazara next year and likely require a multi year deal.  I have some hope mazara still has some potential left.  Joc is what he is at this point.  
 

id much rather give mazara the final year of arbitration to figure it out at a lower cost than bringing in another platoon guy (because bringing in another platoon guy means you still need to sign another outfielder too to play when joc sits against lefties).

If mazara doesnt figure it out then there are much more attractive outfield free agents in the 2022 class to target such as schwarber, bryant, conforto, castellanos, and if we just want to say screw it to OF defense, soler. 

Edited September 4, 2020 by ChiSox1917