Should we be worried about the Tigers in the future?

[Dominikk85]

5 hours ago, ChiSox1917 said:

What position players do the tigers have as top prospects besides torkelson and greene? Planning a rebuild around pitching prospects is dangerous given their much higher bust rates than position players.  I think their best case scenario is being the mets of the mid 2010s.  A couple good years, but an offense that was so inconsistent to below average they never had sustained success.

Isaac paredes is an interesting prospect. He is a very good hitter who doesn't strike out much and walks a lot. Isn't a great athlete at third though and doesn't have that much power (13 bombs last year in AAA) but could be a high on base guy who hits 15-20 bombs per year. Not super exciting but an interesting piece.

They do lack hitting depth though and they don't really have a strong core yet. They have some interesting hitters at lower levels like adinso Reyes an de la cruz but they are at least 2-3 years away.

Really illitch wanting to go all in till the end hurts them now because they waited until everyone was old and overpaid so they couldn't be traded anymore.  Sox on the other hand got s huge jumpstart with the controllable pieces they could trade away (sale, Quintana, Eaton but some others too)

Edited September 8, 2020 by Dominikk85

[periphery831]

2 hours ago, Dominikk85 said:

Really illitch wanting to go all in till the end hurts them now because they waited until everyone was old and overpaid so they couldn't be traded anymore.  Sox on the other hand got s huge jumpstart with the controllable pieces they could trade away (sale, Quintana, Eaton but some others too)

Really have to give props to the FO for that. 

[southsider2k5]

At its core, Detroit never committed to the full rebuild and used all of their vets to gather players in return.  They have seemingly drafted nicely, but with their window opening soon, I don't think they have enough to be ready for this.

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

Absolutely not.. Not at this moment.. They have 1 hitter that would scare us in their system (Tork) and some great pitching.  I've always been the low man on Mize but think Skubal and Manning will be legit.  Either way their pitching will be great, hitting will be bad.. The bad news is, the pitching is ready NOW.. Hitting is nowhere to be found... Their rebuild will not be ready at the same time (like ours) which is a big deal.  I don't see them having a window except maybe 4-5ish years down the line.

[Dominikk85]

4 hours ago, periphery831 said:

Really have to give props to the FO for that. 

You mean for signing those cheap extensions?

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

No.

[southsider2k5]

17 minutes ago, Dominikk85 said:

You mean for signing those cheap extensions?

Yes.  And to putting together a core that the young players would be excited enough to want to stay longer than just til first chance at FA.

[brijames1957]

7 hours ago, Dominikk85 said:

Isaac paredes is an interesting prospect. He is a very good hitter who doesn't strike out much and walks a lot. Isn't a great athlete at third though and doesn't have that much power (13 bombs last year in AAA) but could be a high on base guy who hits 15-20 bombs per year. Not super exciting but an interesting piece.

They do lack hitting depth though and they don't really have a strong core yet. They have some interesting hitters at lower levels like adinso Reyes an de la cruz but they are at least 2-3 years away.

Really illitch wanting to go all in till the end hurts them now because they waited until everyone was old and overpaid so they couldn't be traded anymore.  Sox on the other hand got s huge jumpstart with the controllable pieces they could trade away (sale, Quintana, Eaton but some others too)

Paredes is currently batting .174 in 17 games and has struck out 16 times in 46 at bats.

[southsider2k5]

12 minutes ago, brijames1957 said:

Paredes is currently batting .174 in 17 games and has struck out 16 times in 46 at bats.

Are you pronouncing him dead?  Because I am sure not ready for that.  The kid has some talent.

[brijames1957]

1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said:

Are you pronouncing him dead?  Because I am sure not ready for that.  The kid has some talent.

Not at all, just giving some current perspective. 

[southsider2k5]

Just now, brijames1957 said:

Not at all, just giving some current perspective. 

Then what he is hitting in 46 ABs this year doesn't really matter for what his expectations are for the future.

[Kyyle23]

"That man is DEAD"

 

"well cross him off, then"

[GreenSox]

Hopefully, the Tigers' top 10 choices turn out like the Sox' did.

[he gone.]

Short answer is yes. But not in 2020, not in 2021, probably not in 2022. 2023 Yes. But too much can happen in between. 

Hardest thing to do in baseball is build arms/rotation. Tigers have a nice looking start there. Second hardest thing is to have management that spends. Otherwise you're the rays/indians/A's in perpetuity which leaves almost no room for error. Right now the indians have struck an okay balance for the time being, however when you don't cash in on Kluber, Clevinger or Bauer in any meaningful way then there's going to be room for doubt to sustain that run. Indians to me fall more in the Rockies category of teams that seem to not be able to time out/cash in on their talents. The Tigers? depends on if the Illitch sons want to spend like their father when he was dying. IF they spend? That can be a dangerous team in 2-3 years because you'll have Miggy's contract coming off, you'll have Tork who is like a Vaughn bat - pretty much certain will translate at hte MLB level & you'll have Riley GReene. Now, i get that it leaves 6-7 bats to fill, but assuming you can have league avg. production at say Catcher and LF? You have 5 spots remaining to be filled. As we have seen lately it's not very tough/costly to acquire guys like this. Schoop for them this year ... Cron .... you can go out and get people like Avi Garcia on shorter contracts, Puig, Scooter Gennett, etc. etc. or make trades and acquire guys like Tommy Pham did last year iwth the Rays. Or to lesser extents Moreland, PIllar, etc. etc. Basically my point is, the arms are the tough part and if they do that, and its trending somewhat in that direction? Add a few college bats in the next draft or two, graduate your top guys, and then let the Illitch family make their splash on the big FA or two. I've said the Tigers are the team to watch. Royals and Indians are stuck in the Rays mode, not too scared there. Twins? I don't think they'll make it over that hump. Just that 85-95 win team for the next 5 years that is always dancing, but not really able to graduate over the hump (unless they find a 1-2 rotation punch).

[Orlando]

They have played above expectations this year. They also called up Mize and Skubal. Torkelson in the wings and this team might be the one I am most worried about beyon 2022.

[he gone.]

meaning this -- starting in 2022 the Tigers will be our biggest rivalry throughout our run. So 2022-2026?  Tigers will be our number 1 rival. Twins/Royals as our next tier. Indians will be in the dumps. I just don't trust them to offload Lindor well either. Or Carlos CArrasco. Or any of their guys. they do it poorly consistently. 

[Chicago White Sox]

People are jumping way too quickly on their bandwagon.  Their pitching could be stellar, but it’s all theoretical at the moment and one key injury could quickly change things.  And yes they have Tork on the positional side but that only washes out our own Vaughn and they’d still have to make up for Robert, Eloy, Moncada, & Anderson.  Honestly, them playing better than expected and fucking up their draft position is great news for us.  Hopefully they don’t get any more top 5 picks and are unable to add another blue chip bat to mix, at least the easy way.

[Jack Parkman]

15 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

People are jumping way too quickly on their bandwagon.  Their pitching could be stellar, but it’s all theoretical at the moment and one key injury could quickly change things.  And yes they have Tork on the positional side but that only washes out our own Vaughn and they’d still have to make up for Robert, Eloy, Moncada, & Anderson.  Honestly, them playing better than expected and fucking up their draft position is great news for us.  Hopefully they don’t get any more top 5 picks and are unable to add another blue chip bat to mix, at least the easy way.

As we've seen with the Sox arms, things can go south in a hurry with injuries and lack of development. The Sox guys were farther away than the Detroit guys are, but you never know what happens once they get up. In late 2017, the Sox had

Rodon(chronically injured)

Giolito(TOR SP)

Lopez (bust) 

Kopech (Injuries/work in progress) 

Cease(Work in Progress) 

Hansen(bust) 

Dunning(injuries/work in progress) 

And out of all of them, only one has emerged so far as even a decent SP, and it's the guy nobody thought would. 

Edited September 8, 2020 by Jack Parkman

[Jack Parkman]

21 minutes ago, Tony said:

Ok  when ST started in 2019 who in the hell thought Giolito would ever be a good pitcher? 

It wasn't until June of 2018 when he got his velocity back that even I started to believe. He looked like toast in April and May of 2018. 

Edited September 8, 2020 by Jack Parkman

[Jack Parkman]

3 minutes ago, Tony said:

Not a ton, but it wasn't like he didn't come in with a big reputation and didn't show big flashes in 2018 that a good pitcher was in there somewhere. It was also well documented that the Nats totally screwed with him and he basically had to be rebuilt from the ground up, and it took a while.

This doesn't need to be a whole thing, my point is the narrative that no one thought Giolito would turn into an even "decent" pitcher with the White Sox is false. Certain people may have jumped off the bandwagon, but saying "no one" is a large stretch. 

The bolded was exactly my point from June 2018 onward. There were very few people who believed in him by August 2018. I was pretty convinced he was going to turn it around after that start where he shut down Boston, who won the WS that year. I remember arguing with folks about how Giolito was going to be better than Lopez. I can't remember anyone coming to my defense. 

Edited September 8, 2020 by Jack Parkman

[southsider2k5]

32 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Ok  when ST started in 2019 who in the hell thought Giolito would ever be a good pitcher? 

It wasn't until June of 2018 when he got his velocity back that even I started to believe. He looked like toast in April and May of 2018. 

There were definitely more than a few of us who were trying tell people that you can't give up on an arm like that too quickly.  MLB is freaking hard.  The difference between AAA and MLB is huge.  Most guys have to learn on the job how to be MLB ready, no matter how talented they are.

[southsider2k5]

16 minutes ago, Tony said:

Three things. 

1. There was a thread on Gio in 2018 titled "Lucas Giolito is Saving His Season" which was from Fangraphs. 

2. In it, many people could see the developments Gio was making, and said as much. 

3. The thread got derailed because..........You turned it into a Tim Anderson thread where you said this, in August of 2018:

"I just think his OBP is so bad that he should be a 130 game super sub rather than an everyday player."

Now, before you say "Actually I was right about Anderson, his OBP skills still are poor and heavily influenced by his batting average...." I'm going to stop you and say don't do that. The guy is well on his way to winning back to back batting titles and has turned himself into an elite hitter who arguably the face of the franchise....and you wanted him to be a "super sub" 

I know you want to take a bunch of victory laps on Lucas, but I'd slow down just a little bit. 

Not to brag, but dang I hit it out of the park on both TA and Gio, lol.

[Jack Parkman]

59 minutes ago, Tony said:

Three things. 

1. There was a thread on Gio in 2018 titled "Lucas Giolito is Saving His Season" which was from Fangraphs. 

2. In it, many people could see the developments Gio was making, and said as much. 

3. The thread got derailed because..........You turned it into a Tim Anderson thread where you said this, in August of 2018:

"I just think his OBP is so bad that he should be a 130 game super sub rather than an everyday player."

Now, before you say "Actually I was right about Anderson, his OBP skills still are poor and heavily influenced by his batting average...." I'm going to stop you and say don't do that. The guy is well on his way to winning back to back batting titles and has turned himself into an elite hitter who arguably the face of the franchise....and you wanted him to be a "super sub" 

I know you want to take a bunch of victory laps on Lucas, but I'd slow down just a little bit. 

Obviously 2019 changed things for Anderson. I'm willing to take the L on that one, but I think I could be forgiven for never thinking he'd become this good of a hitter. 

As Fred Gwynne and Joe Pesci said in My Cousin Vinny- Win some, lose some. 

Edited September 8, 2020 by Jack Parkman

[South Side Hit Men]

3 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

As we've seen with the Sox arms, things can go south in a hurry with injuries and lack of development. The Sox guys were farther away than the Detroit guys are, but you never know what happens once they get up. In late 2017, the Sox had

Rodon(chronically injured)

Giolito(TOR SP)

Lopez (bust) 

Kopech (Injuries/work in progress) 

Cease(Work in Progress) 

Hansen(bust) 

Dunning(injuries/work in progress) 

And out of all of them, only one has emerged so far as even a decent SP, and it's the guy nobody thought would. 

Can any of these other pitchers get in touch with their High School pitching coach?

Is Don Cooper still alive, or is has a taxidermist added remote control wheels to allow mound visits?

Forgot he has been a Friend Of Jerry since 1988, when Ronald Reagan was still in office.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/white-sox/ct-spt-white-sox-don-cooper-20190416-story.html 

 

Edited September 8, 2020 by South Side Hit Men

[Chicago White Sox]

3 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

As we've seen with the Sox arms, things can go south in a hurry with injuries and lack of development. The Sox guys were farther away than the Detroit guys are, but you never know what happens once they get up. In late 2017, the Sox had

Rodon(chronically injured)

Giolito(TOR SP)

Lopez (bust) 

Kopech (Injuries/work in progress) 

Cease(Work in Progress) 

Hansen(bust) 

Dunning(injuries/work in progress) 

And out of all of them, only one has emerged so far as even a decent SP, and it's the guy nobody thought would. 

Great post Jack and fully agree!