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YourWhatHurts

You have to start McCann for now

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16 hours ago, YourWhatHurts said:

This is not a question of "What will the Sox do?" it is "What would you do?"

Both are starting catchers so there is no option given to split time.  It's one or the other: one stays and the other is gone.

Goodbye McCann. 

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I rarely say this, but I love the way Ricky has used McCann this season. He really has gotten the most out of him without overexposing him

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5 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said:

I rarely say this, but I love the way Ricky has used McCann this season. He really has gotten the most out of him without overexposing him

Exposing him to what, COVID?

How about giving credit to the player. Maybe McCann is a solid ML Catcher after all.

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The Sox could decide to make doo with Engel and Mazara next year. The owner could decide and direct to keep McCann or make a QO. That would leave some resources for an SP. It's not really about hot takes over McCann. He obviously has value. Meanwhile they can keep McCann in a significant playoff role. The guy is a player. 

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8 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I love Jimmy Mac... and I think anyone who thinks he should start and is better is completely blind. Mccann should be singing his best graces towards the Sox who have put him in a position to look as good as possible this year; well played match ups. That doesn't take away from how awesome he's been. This thread is comical though

See, this season I think it’s the exact opposite of the bolded.

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Like I said last night in the GT, this isn't about Grandal vs McCann to me. It's about McCann vs Encarnacion. Encarnacion should be on the bench and should PH late in games for Mazara, while McCann should be DH'ing most games with 2 starts at C per week. When he catches, Grandal's at DH and occasionally 1B to get Abreu a DH day.

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3 minutes ago, soxfan49 said:

Like I said last night in the GT, this isn't about Grandal vs McCann to me. It's about McCann vs Encarnacion. Encarnacion should be on the bench and should PH late in games for Mazara, while McCann should be DH'ing most games with 2 starts at C per week. When he catches, Grandal's at DH and occasionally 1B to get Abreu a DH day.

I partly agree. But I think it is also about McCann vs Grandal because I think McCann has outperformed Grandal defensively this season. I haven’t seen a discernible difference in their framing while McCann has been a better receiver, game caller, and shown better awareness on the field than Grandal. Ultimately, they both should be in the lineup every day but instead of Grandal getting 2/3 starts at catcher, I think it should be flipped in the postseason to where McCann gets 2/3. Let McCann catch all Giolito and Dunning starts. Let Grandal catch Keuchel and Cease. I’m hoping the playoff rotation sets up as Giolito-Keuchel-Dunning-Cease in that order.

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James has become a better hitter the past couple years... but its still a little bit of smoke and mirrors

 

Before last year he had a career OPS around 630 or something... 

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1 hour ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

I partly agree. But I think it is also about McCann vs Grandal because I think McCann has outperformed Grandal defensively this season. I haven’t seen a discernible difference in their framing while McCann has been a better receiver, game caller, and shown better awareness on the field than Grandal. Ultimately, they both should be in the lineup every day but instead of Grandal getting 2/3 starts at catcher, I think it should be flipped in the postseason to where McCann gets 2/3. Let McCann catch all Giolito and Dunning starts. Let Grandal catch Keuchel and Cease. I’m hoping the playoff rotation sets up as Giolito-Keuchel-Dunning-Cease in that order.

Stoney even tweeted McCann calls a better game, blocks pitches better, etc 

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5 minutes ago, fathom said:

Stoney even tweeted McCann calls a better game, blocks pitches better, etc 

For anyone watching the games and not simply referring back to fangraphs, I think the difference has been very obvious this season. I’m struggling to understand the perspective of Ray Ray and a few other posters. It’s like they’re watching a different game or maybe they’re not watching the games at all?

 

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27 minutes ago, fathom said:

Stoney even tweeted McCann calls a better game, blocks pitches better, etc 

Stoney should know better than to comment on a catchers ability to call a game without being the pitcher himself. Grandal has been lauded for his homework and game planning in the past; he's been critiqued for his slower movement and his propensity to simply miss baseballs. I think there's more to receiving than framing and I argued Grandal was a poor receiver even while being an elite framer, but I have no idea if he's better or worse at calling a game... all I know is his work in that arena has been praised by teammates.

Edited by Look at Ray Ray Run
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22 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

For anyone watching the games and not simply referring back to fangraphs, I think the difference has been very obvious this season. I’m struggling to understand the perspective of Ray Ray and a few other posters. It’s like they’re watching a different game or maybe they’re not watching the games at all?

 

What are you arguing? What are your eyes telling you? 

I think there's something to Grandal not being a great receiver; I have argued that same thing on this site. The industry is definitely torn on how good Grandal is as a catcher, and I am one who leans towards he's not a great defender class, but he's still an elite overall catcher and the future of this team at the position. 

McCann has been put in situations for him to best succeed. If you want to compare catchers ERA, which is much better for McCann (2.52) than Yaz (4.72) you need to compare the opponents and the pitchers he is catching. McCann has been put in a position to look as good as he can, and that's good coaching btw.

Last year, Grandals catcher's ERA was also higher than his team ERA in Milwaukee but the year before with the Dodgers they were near identical. In 2017, his ERA (3.22) was better than the team ERA (3.48). The point is, that number jumps around and has more to do with your opponents and who you catch than it does your own abilities. 

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give McCann some extra dough to stay. The injury rate for 30+ year old catchers is high. Sox will have $$ galore for 5-10 years.

One other thing. Watching McCann hit now is weird. He doesn't look like the same guy that he was in Detroit.

 

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1 minute ago, zisk said:

give McCann some extra dough to stay. The injury rate for 30+ year old catchers is high. Sox will have $$ galore for 5-10 years.

One other thing. Watching McCann hit now is weird. He doesn't look like the same guy that he was in Detroit.

 

The homer he hit last night was a welcome to the show moment for Brubaker. He threw that slider exactly where he wanted to; low and away on the paint. McCann took it out to CF and Brubaker just shook his head in amazement. 

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1 hour ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Stoney should know better than to comment on a catchers ability to call a game without being the pitcher himself. Grandal has been lauded for his homework and game planning in the past; he's been critiqued for his slower movement and his propensity to simply miss baseballs. I think there's more to receiving than framing and I argued Grandal was a poor receiver even while being an elite framer, but I have no idea if he's better or worse at calling a game... all I know is his work in that arena has been praised by teammates.

Is there an element to what makes him so good at framing also makes him miss more baseballs (i.e., he tries to move so little so that he can be so subtle from a "framing" perspective that it actually causes a bit more passed balls because he's not able to be as agile on more wild pitches and/or when there is a cross-up between pitcher & catcher?  

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3 hours ago, harkness99 said:

James has become a better hitter the past couple years... but its still a little bit of smoke and mirrors

 

Before last year he had a career OPS around 630 or something... 

What was Giolito's career ERA before last year?  Players can get better.  Not too Gioito's degree, but McCann has gotten better.

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28 minutes ago, turnin' two said:

What was Giolito's career ERA before last year?  Players can get better.  Not too Gioito's degree, but McCann has gotten better.

TBH, McCann's breakout is WAY more impressive to me than Giolito's.  McCann played four full seasons of pretty crappy baseball.  Giolito was terrible for one year.

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3 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

What are you arguing? What are your eyes telling you? 

I think there's something to Grandal not being a great receiver; I have argued that same thing on this site. The industry is definitely torn on how good Grandal is as a catcher, and I am one who leans towards he's not a great defender class, but he's still an elite overall catcher and the future of this team at the position. 

McCann has been put in situations for him to best succeed. If you want to compare catchers ERA, which is much better for McCann (2.52) than Yaz (4.72) you need to compare the opponents and the pitchers he is catching. McCann has been put in a position to look as good as he can, and that's good coaching btw.

Last year, Grandals catcher's ERA was also higher than his team ERA in Milwaukee but the year before with the Dodgers they were near identical. In 2017, his ERA (3.22) was better than the team ERA (3.48). The point is, that number jumps around and has more to do with your opponents and who you catch than it does your own abilities. 

My eyes are telling me that McCann has looked like the better player this season, offensively and defensively.

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24 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

TBH, McCann's breakout is WAY more impressive to me than Giolito's.  McCann played four full seasons of pretty crappy baseball.  Giolito was terrible for one year.

Giolito was one of the only pitchers in MLB history to go from the literal worst pitcher in baseball to one of the best.

McCann had a 733 OPS in 2017, and catchers historically develop slower than every other position; most specifically, their bats due to the amount of work they have to put in on other areas in the minors and early MLB careers. There are a lot of catchers in MLB history who got a lot better in their late 20's. Hell in the past 10 years the SOx have had 2. Tyler Flowers took off at 30-31, and James McCann took off at 29. McCann is a nice story, but Giolito is a historically rare turnaround story.

Edited by Look at Ray Ray Run

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1 hour ago, Chisoxfn said:

Is there an element to what makes him so good at framing also makes him miss more baseballs (i.e., he tries to move so little so that he can be so subtle from a "framing" perspective that it actually causes a bit more passed balls because he's not able to be as agile on more wild pitches and/or when there is a cross-up between pitcher & catcher?  

I've actually heard this given as a reason before; he is so still and soft with his hands that he doesn't react as well late. I'm not sure how much validity there is to it, but I'm willing to listen.

Edited by Look at Ray Ray Run

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15 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I love Jimmy Mac... and I think anyone who thinks he should start and is better is completely blind. Mccann should be singing his best graces towards the Sox who have put him in a position to look as good as possible this year; well played match ups. That doesn't take away from how awesome he's been. This thread is comical though

 

So I guess that the "completely blind" includes Giolito?  I I would bet that if you gave our other younger pitchers a choice, (I can't prove it, of course), but I would bet the majority of them would also pick McCann. So I don't think your statement has any validity at all, at all. 

What bothers me is you guys who make these absolute statements that Grandal is better than McCann as if it beyond doubt or debate. Certainly you can make a strong argument that Grandal is better, looking at his past work and the odd aspects of this shortened season. But you can't totally dismiss the evidence in front of you about what's happening right now. McCann is obviously better than Grandal, both offensively and defensively, this year. It's an obvious observable reality. You can't just ignore that reality and make some blanket statement that has no credibility. It is a topic with strong points on both sides. 

To say Grandal is better, period, you're like Snoopy in this comic. 

 mbOXturrryMBIqL6zEbTbdbPVaM-jw8_kBHB6B44

 

 

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McCann has looked better for the most part but Grandal is a top 5 catcher and it is a SSS. McCann scared us a bit last year when he fell of that cliff for a while. He may be better suited for limited duty and light wear and tear. Baseball is about the long haul,and over the long haul I'm rolling with Grandal. 

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4 hours ago, Chisoxfn said:

Is there an element to what makes him so good at framing also makes him miss more baseballs (i.e., he tries to move so little so that he can be so subtle from a "framing" perspective that it actually causes a bit more passed balls because he's not able to be as agile on more wild pitches and/or when there is a cross-up between pitcher & catcher?  

Having seen him this year, it doesn't seem like he's being subtle as much as he is losing focus. He has rashes of passed balls not because he's being subtle but because he lost focus for that game for whatever reason. He let the ball get away from him on Tuesday to end the game not because he was being subtle but because he wasn't focused on the game. It seems like just a lot of mental mistakes for him, but they become really big and important to the results sometimes. 

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1 hour ago, vilehoopster said:

 

So I guess that the "completely blind" includes Giolito?  I I would bet that if you gave our other younger pitchers a choice, (I can't prove it, of course), but I would bet the majority of them would also pick McCann. So I don't think your statement has any validity at all, at all. 

What bothers me is you guys who make these absolute statements that Grandal is better than McCann as if it beyond doubt or debate. Certainly you can make a strong argument that Grandal is better, looking at his past work and the odd aspects of this shortened season. But you can't totally dismiss the evidence in front of you about what's happening right now. McCann is obviously better than Grandal, both offensively and defensively, this year. It's an obvious observable reality. You can't just ignore that reality and make some blanket statement that has no credibility. It is a topic with strong points on both sides. 

To say Grandal is better, period, you're like Snoopy in this comic. 

 mbOXturrryMBIqL6zEbTbdbPVaM-jw8_kBHB6B44

 

 

If McCann didn't play nearly half his games and at bats vs lefties his numbers likely would not be better offensively. This is the aspect people seem to be missing when comparing the two statistically. McCann has played in more successful situations for him, because he's the back-up. Grandal has to play everyday so he doesn't get to avoid his weaknesses.

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McCann plays with an edge and is enjoyable to watch. His moment to shine may be approaching. We will see what kind of offers he receives. 

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