NFL Thread 2020-2021

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2 minutes ago, StrangeSox said:

What GM wants to step into that shitshow with not enough picks to fix things and no cap space?

There are only 32 of these jobs. The cap space is basically a one year issue. I'm sure things won't be great next year but it's terrible now anyway.

[Chisoxfn]

1 hour ago, StrangeSox said:

What GM wants to step into that shitshow with not enough picks to fix things and no cap space?

Everyone saying this team is a shitshow is wrong.  This defense no-showed on Sunday night, but it is not a bad defense. They have good CB's (Fuller & Johnson) and while Eddie Jackson has been a shell of his past self, I am not going to write him off after one down year after a number of electric years (last year wasn't as good either - so there is definitely a trend) and the LB corps is still solid (Danny T is a liability in pass coverage - but almost every team has aspects of that) and the dline is solid and will be better next year with Goldman back. Mack hasn't gotten the production he should, but he is still an above average dlineman and Quinn has been off all year - but that started with him being injured to start, etc, so maybe this is one of those scenarios where a year back is a difference. 

They have some age issues but I could also see the defense taking a step forward (vs. back) in a year, both due to Goldman coming back (huge to have that run stuffer in the middle) combined with a more aggressive scheme that maybe maximizes the ability for Jackson/Fuller to be in more positions to make game changing plays (plus Roquan who has been a stud all year - although he has had some bouts with poor tackles).  

The offense - that is a shitshow - no denying that.  Period.  

[The Beast]

3 hours ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Holy shit!

You admit this is a poorly-coached, and poorly-assembled team, yet you want to keep the shitty coach around?

Why, exactly? 

 

Again, they have:

1. No QB,

2. A shitty O-Line,

3. (If Robinson doesn't re-sign here) No skill position players that would start for another team,

4. Not a high enough pick to solve some of these issues,

5. An aging defense, and

6. No cap space.

 

So other than you having a fear of change, why repeat the Fire the GM/keep the coach failures of yesteryear?

 

I didn’t realize the sky was falling. 
 

Who do you want to see coaching this team? How are 1 through 6 Nagy’s problem? 

The dude was signed to a five year deal. Why not get rid of the asshole who made the wrong moves, bring in another GM and have that GM evaluate what to do with Nagy? Remember how cash strapped teams will be and how they would be paying Nagy to go away. I’m just thinking of this more than one way rather than just firing Nagy. 

1 hour ago, StrangeSox said:

What GM wants to step into that shitshow with not enough picks to fix things and no cap space?

If I remember correctly, they have all but their fourth round pick next year. If they did a fire sale does the cap matter or do they have dead money?

[Jack Parkman]

43 minutes ago, Chisoxfn said:

Everyone saying this team is a shitshow is wrong.  This defense no-showed on Sunday night, but it is not a bad defense. They have good CB's (Fuller & Johnson) and while Eddie Jackson has been a shell of his past self, I am not going to write him off after one down year after a number of electric years (last year wasn't as good either - so there is definitely a trend) and the LB corps is still solid (Danny T is a liability in pass coverage - but almost every team has aspects of that) and the dline is solid and will be better next year with Goldman back. Mack hasn't gotten the production he should, but he is still an above average dlineman and Quinn has been off all year - but that started with him being injured to start, etc, so maybe this is one of those scenarios where a year back is a difference. 

They have some age issues but I could also see the defense taking a step forward (vs. back) in a year, both due to Goldman coming back (huge to have that run stuffer in the middle) combined with a more aggressive scheme that maybe maximizes the ability for Jackson/Fuller to be in more positions to make game changing plays (plus Roquan who has been a stud all year - although he has had some bouts with poor tackles).  

The offense - that is a shitshow - no denying that.  Period.  

They should franchise and trade Robinson. He should have been traded already. I think he would have if they'd have lost the games they were supposed to early in the season. 

Both Hicks and Fuller only have 1 year left. They both should be traded this winter. 

I think Jaylon Johnson is very promising. So is Darnell Mooney. I think Johnson could be a building block in the future. I don't think Mooney is quite that good, but I do think he could be a solid #2.

I like Anthony Miller, but with 1 year left, if anyone likes him enough to give you a pick for him, have at it. 

I'm almost to the point that you have to see what you have in your WR group. 

Edited December 1, 2020 by Jack Parkman

[Two-Gun Pete]

1 hour ago, The Beast said:

Who do you want to see coaching this team? How are 1 through 6 Nagy’s problem? 

The dude was signed to a five year deal. Why not get rid of the asshole who made the wrong moves, bring in another GM and have that GM evaluate what to do with Nagy? Remember how cash strapped teams will be and how they would be paying Nagy to go away. I’m just thinking of this more than one way rather than just firing Nagy. 

If I remember correctly, they have all but their fourth round pick next year. If they did a fire sale does the cap matter or do they have dead money?

#s 1-6 ARE Nagy’s problem, because he's shown no ability to bridge these issues. He's out of his depth as a head coach, and he seems like he'd rather be a OC, anyway.

That said, we saw the "fire the GM/keep the coach" movie before. And we know how that'll turn out. So, short of this team miracling their asses into the playoffs, fire everyone! Rip the bandaid off NOW, & get the rebuild started. 

I'd prefer that they trade any/all tradeable pieces for as many picks as possible. (Better to do so before they all get old/injured.) Then, draft the best available O-Linemen this draft, so that its at least league-average for when your franchise QB arrives in town. Then, tank 2021, and hope that there will be a franchise QB to draft/develop for 2022.

This roster, with this coach, and that GM aint winning anything. Keeping any of it around will only prolong the suffering. As it is, they'll probably pick somewhere between 12ish and 20ish, depending on how they finish the season. There aren't enough picks/high enough picks to fix the O-line, find a QB, and find some skill position players in one offseason. They also don't have enough cap space to solve their issues in FA.

So back the truck up. The Bears right now are where the SOX were on July 21, 2016.

Edited December 2, 2020 by Two-Gun Pete

[Stinky Stanky]

44 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

#s 1-6 ARE Nagy’s problem, because he's shown no ability to bridge these issues. He's out of his depth as a head coach, and he seems like he'd rather be a OC, anyway.

That said, we saw the "fire the GM/keep the coach" movie before. And we know how that'll turn out. So, short of this team miracling their asses into the playoffs, fire everyone! Rip the bandaid off NOW, & get the rebuild started. 

I'd prefer that they trade any/all tradeable pieces for as many picks as possible. (Better to do so before they all get old/injured.) Then, draft the best available O-Linemen this draft, so that its at least league-average for when your franchise QB arrives in town. Then, tank 2021, and hope that there will be a franchise QB to draft/develop for 2022.

This roster, with this coach, and that GM aint winning anything. Keeping any of it around will only prolong the suffering. As it is, they'll probably pick somewhere between 12ish and 20ish, depending on how they finish the season. There aren't enough picks/high enough picks to fix the O-line, find a QB, and find some skill position players in one offseason. They also don't have enough cap space to solve their issues in FA.

So back the truck up. The Bears right now are where the SOX were on July 21, 2016.

Better make it known to management that you're available.  You're smarter than anyone in the FO right now.  Use 2021 as an evaluation year for the new GM and staff, OK, tank, and scheme to get a QB in 2022. 😀 (Mitch #2 !!!)

[Two-Gun Pete]

Just now, Stinky Stanky said:

Better make it known to management that you're available.  You're smarter than anyone in the FO right now.  Use 2021 as an evaluation year for the new GM and staff, OK, tank, and scheme to get a QB in 2022. 😀 (Mitch #2 !!!)

Yeah.

I know I wouldn't have been dumb enough to trade away what they did to move up 1 pick to grab the 2nd best QB from the ACC.

[The Beast]

35 minutes ago, Stinky Stanky said:

Better make it known to management that you're available.  You're smarter than anyone in the FO right now.  Use 2021 as an evaluation year for the new GM and staff, OK, tank, and scheme to get a QB in 2022. 😀 (Mitch #2 !!!)

That’s exactly what I thought when I started reading. He better write Ted Phillips and get George McCaskey on the phone!

1 hour ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

#s 1-6 ARE Nagy’s problem, because he's shown no ability to bridge these issues. He's out of his depth as a head coach, and he seems like he'd rather be a OC, anyway.

That said, we saw the "fire the GM/keep the coach" movie before. And we know how that'll turn out. So, short of this team miracling their asses into the playoffs, fire everyone! Rip the bandaid off NOW, & get the rebuild started. 

I'd prefer that they trade any/all tradeable pieces for as many picks as possible. (Better to do so before they all get old/injured.) Then, draft the best available O-Linemen this draft, so that its at least league-average for when your franchise QB arrives in town. Then, tank 2021, and hope that there will be a franchise QB to draft/develop for 2022.

This roster, with this coach, and that GM aint winning anything. Keeping any of it around will only prolong the suffering. As it is, they'll probably pick somewhere between 12ish and 20ish, depending on how they finish the season. There aren't enough picks/high enough picks to fix the O-line, find a QB, and find some skill position players in one offseason. They also don't have enough cap space to solve their issues in FA.

So back the truck up. The Bears right now are where the SOX were on July 21, 2016.

Nagy can take the blame in the end but I still think the players have to play. Let’s see that elite defense they were supposed to be what people believed them to be. The offense has never been consistently good over the last 30 years and it is completely short sighted of some fans to focus on just the quarterback. It’s just lazy analysis, people need to look at everything collectively.

I’m sure Virginia can be persuaded to do that again after it hasn’t worked since Pace took over. I guess I don’t see a favorable outcome if they rip everything up and start over again (again). Maybe it’s fair to say that the Bears franchise, as constructed now, in the past and in the future can’t have sustained success. 

I am for trading pieces and changing up the roster, I just don’t see a complete overhaul happening. I could be wrong. We’ll see.

Side note: Let’s say they gave you the keys to the car for an offseason, what would you specifically do?

Edited December 2, 2020 by The Beast

[Two-Gun Pete]

On 12/1/2020 at 7:17 PM, The Beast said:

That’s exactly what I thought when I started reading. He better write Ted Phillips and get George McCaskey on the phone!

Nagy can take the blame in the end but I still think the players have to play. Let’s see that elite defense they were supposed to be what people believed them to be. The offense has never been consistently good over the last 30 years and it is completely short sighted of some fans to focus on just the quarterback. It’s just lazy analysis, people need to look at everything collectively.

Side note: Let’s say they gave you the keys to the car for an offseason, what would you specifically do?

WRT the bolded, I do look at the offense collectively:

Among the players, the the O-Line sucks, the QB sucks, and it has only 1 skill position player that is good enough to start for another team.

About the coaching, none of the different parts of the offensive roster have improved, thanks to the coaching of Nagy, et al.

And about the scheme, what does this team do well offensively? What is their signature? And since the offense is supposed to be Nagy's area of expertise, why isn't it better? His "scheme" isn't much of a system, but more of a list of plays, without any real regard to how they work together or compliment the talent.

 

Now, I'd like to think I'm a fair guy. So, if this team makes the playoffs, then sure: keep Pace, and keep Nagy. But, if this team fails to make the postseason, then fire EVERYONE, start a fire sale of any/all players with any value, and hit the reset button.

Pace and Nagy have their virtues, but both appear to be out of their depths in terms of their current jobs. Pace has a good eye for defensive players. But he has a shitty sense of value, a poor sense of how to build a team, and he's hired poorly. Similarly, Nagy’s players seem to like him. But he's a poor HEAD coach, in that he seems more interested in calling HIS playbook, and less interested in overseeing/developing players and systems. 

So again, if they make the playoffs, keep both Pace & Nagy. If not, fire everyone, trade everything away, and hit the reset button.

Edited December 3, 2020 by Two-Gun Pete

[The Beast]

1 hour ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

WRT the bolded, I do look at the offense collectively:

Among the players, the the O-Line sucks, the QB sucks, and it has only 1 skill position player that is good enough to start for another team.

About the coaching, none of the different parts of the offensive roster have improved, thanks to the coaching of Nagy, et al.

And about the scheme, what does this team do well offensively? What is their signature? And since the offense is supposed to be Nagy's area of expertise, why isn't it better? His "scheme" isn't much of a system, but more of a list of plays, without any real regard to how they work together or compliment the talent.

 

Now, I'd like to think I'm a fair guy. So, if this team makes the playoffs, then sure: keep Pace, and keep Nagy. But, if this team fails to make the postseason, then fire EVERYONE, start a fire sale of any/all players with any value, and hit the reset button.

Pace and Nagy have their virtues, but both appear to be out of their depths in terms of their current jobs. Pace has a good eye for defensive players. But he has a shitty sense of value, a poor sense of how to build a team, and he's hired poorly. Similarly, Nagy’s players seem to like him. But he's a poor HEAD coach, in that he seems more interested in calling HIS playbook, and less interested in overseeing/developing players and systems. 

So again, if they make the playoffs, keep both Pace & Nagy. If not, fire everyone, trade everything away, and hit the reset button.

I guess I fault Pace more than Nagy since I think coaching can only do so much. If anything I blame Nagy for his offensive play calling over everything. Sure Mitch never developed to be better under Nagy, but Nagy can’t read the defense for Mitch. His scheme might be better if he had better personnel that actually clicked instead of failed together. That offensive line is horrendous.

What I was asking you to do is evaluate the cap, what specific players to trade and what they would get in return, how much teams will expect to lose in revenue this year and figure out a feasible plan. I appreciate your posts and believe they are fair so I thought I might like to see an off season list which would change depending on the rest of the season. I acknowledge your point about Pace’s and Nagy’s strengths and shortcomings, but I guess we will see what becomes of them.

Lastly, your analysis is much better than the joke of analysis I usually hear from Score callers and Facebook overreactions, thanks for that.

[Chisoxfn]

I have been a Miller complainer for years, but I felt this was a pretty damning quote (if it is grounded in some truth).  And honestly - I feel like to some extent it really wouldn't surprise me. 

 

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1334950466095095810

[Two-Gun Pete]

On 12/2/2020 at 10:23 PM, The Beast said:

What I was asking you to do is evaluate the cap, what specific players to trade and what they would get in return, how much teams will expect to lose in revenue this year and figure out a feasible plan. I appreciate your posts and believe they are fair so I thought I might like to see an off season list which would change depending on the rest of the season. I acknowledge your point about Pace’s and Nagy’s strengths and shortcomings, but I guess we will see what becomes of them.

Lastly, your analysis is much better than the joke of analysis I usually hear from Score callers and Facebook overreactions, thanks for that.

This is difficult to assess in the year of COVID, and a declining salary cap. Some teams that would have had more salary caps space may have been more aggressive in the trade market, if the cap was to stay the same or increase. We've never ever seen an offseason that will be like this one coming up. What's more, there are still 5 games to be played, and players can either set themselves up in the shop window, or totally fuck up their trade values.

For example, Quinn has sucked a horse's ass all year long. BUT, if he catches fire, and piles up the sacks down the stretch, he could be more valuable. Likewise, Mack might be a ~top 10 or so overall player in the NFL. If he gets hurt, or sucks down the stretch, forget about getting anything in value in trade. But if he lights up the league down the stretch, he could be worth a lot more.

 

On balance, it depends on what happens to the team down the stretch. I certainly don't think that Nagy or Pace are the answer. I think Pace is, at best, a pro scouting director; he's out of his league as an executive, because he makes bad decisions. I think Nagy is, at best, an OC; he's similarly overmatched as a HEAD coach. But, if they make the playoffs, they should stick around.

But, even if the BEARS make the playoffs, consider this link.  If Spotrac is correct, you're looking at the BEARS currently being @ ~$179MM in salary responsibilities for 2021; Hub Arkush thinks the salary cap is going down to ~$175MM. So, just to get down there I think you're looking at

1. Leno and Massie being cut, saving $10MM or so,

2. Graham being cut, saving $3.9MM or so,

3. Either trading Hicks, or cutting him, saving $8-9MM

THEN, the BEARS will have to find a way to sign Robinson [Market Value of $18MM], and at a minimum, a punter, a backup QB, a return man to replace Patterson, a DB or two, and an O-Lineman or two.

 

And that's part of why I prefer a fire sale NOW, because this offseason will be ugly for the BEARS, no matter what happens.

Edited December 5, 2020 by Two-Gun Pete

[SoxAce]

Bears might lose the rest of the way. For the pro tank crowd, this is good news for ya.

[Soxfest]

This is epic failure

[SoxAce]

Oh, and if the Bears get a top 5-10 pick, Pace better not be making it.

[fathom]

Amazing tank loss. Nagy and Pace should be fired tomorrow. Also I’ve never seen a more heartless effort than Allen Robinson all season.

[Soxfest]

Nagy and Pace bye bye........Robinson a bone head play.

Edited December 6, 2020 by Soxfest

[southsider2k5]

You have to fire SOMEONE tomorrow. 

[fathom]

Nagy and Mack should have both retired after the first half of their first Bears game. It’s been downhill ever since.

[Kyyle23]

Well, If you must, then leave no doubt

[SoxAce]

2 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

You have to fire SOMEONE tomorrow. 

When was the last time Bears FO fired anyone mid season? They won't. 

[TheTruth05]

I mean we should all be happy with this result. Bears were not making the playoffs, offense is a disaster and now losing out looks much easier to do. Bears need to keep shooting for a QB and this helps

[Soxbadger]

Jets had to be trying to lose on purpose.

[TheTruth05]

4 minutes ago, Soxbadger said:

Jets had to be trying to lose on purpose.

Good for them, secured Lawrence.

[Saufley]

18 minutes ago, Soxfest said:

This is epic failure

After this Bears loss, I need a White Sox free agent signing tonight to make some of the hurt go away!! Please.