NFL Thread 2020-2021

[bmags]

15 minutes ago, Chisoxfn said:

My preference is if you give up a 1st do it now - although technically giving up only a 1st next year is better value.  I just don't want a year from now to hand roster over if it was a mistake to someone who doesn't have a 1st round pick (god forbid the team is a dumpster fire and top 5 pick or something).  

And - if you look at the link I shared - in 2019 he was awesome in close games, awesome. He was also awesome against top 10 defenses. He was awesome in the red zone. He had one of the lowest INT ratios in the league (despite throwing the ball a ton) and he was one of the best QB's in the league on 3rd down.  Basically he nailed all the major stats in 2019 - despite having in that year almost no wideouts again (since Algalor, Desean Jackson, and Alston Jeffrey were all hurt).  

This guy literally carried the Eagles on his back in 2019. I remember watching quite a few Eagles games that year and just watching him grit his club along.  I'll also note in 2020 (switching seasons) he still ran for almost 250 yards - so presume despite some of the injuries - he still has his athleticism and arm talent.  

Note: If the Bears make this move - I'm franchising arob and probably drafting a wideout and 2 olinemen with my first couple of picks.  I also think Nagy is probably a breath of fresh air next to Pederson. Similar systems the two run - and Wentz has made the system look real good in the past - but Nagy, while he is a lot of things, seems like a players coach.  Not sure if Pederson was or wasn't - certainly didn't here many Eagles fans crying about him going - which was surprising given his super bowl win.  

Yeah especially the red zone production in that article makes you drool.

I get your point on the first rounder. My preference for next year is partly how this draft lines up so well. It has a lot of tackle and WR talent, and you don’t know what next year will be.

OTOH, you could use that as a reason you don’t need a first this year.

Either way, I’m sold on Wentz. But they have to keep Arob, and get oline talent.

[Chicago White Sox]

23 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

That rumor turned out to be BS dude. Sorry for posting it. 

It's likely worse than that, like #20, the Bears 3rd round pick and Miller/Foles. 

No 2nd round pick coming back?

[Jack Parkman]

1 minute ago, Chicago White Sox said:

No 2nd round pick coming back?

Probably not. 

Nobody credible has referenced the 2nd round pick coming back. There was a twitter rando that referenced someone semi-credible that said there was a 2nd coming back but the guy he referenced said it was BS. 

Edited February 7, 2021 by Jack Parkman

[Chisoxfn]

5 minutes ago, bmags said:

Yeah especially the red zone production in that article makes you drool.

I get your point on the first rounder. My preference for next year is partly how this draft lines up so well. It has a lot of tackle and WR talent, and you don’t know what next year will be.

OTOH, you could use that as a reason you don’t need a first this year.

Either way, I’m sold on Wentz. But they have to keep Arob, and get oline talent.

Me too - now I go look - sacked 50 times in as few games as he played.  Eagles had 11 different starting lineups in 16 weeks.  Oline was a disaster.  Train wreck of an oline, train wreck of a HC/QB relationship, and worse receiving corps in the league....yeah - I can buy 2020 as a total aberration given all of those things.

Note: I am not saying Wentz is going to be a top 5 QB with Bears - but top 10 - absolutely possible.  

[Chisoxfn]

This is so not going to happen.  I know I am a huge outlier - but I am so giddy at the though - especially in a scenario where Bears are basically just trading back from 1st to 2nd round. 

For anyone who can ignore 2020 (which is just 1 year). This is Wentz from 2017-2020.  Yes - I would sign up any day for the Bears to get a QB who can rank like that over a 3 year span.  Its also that INT% - which he consistently barely threw - that makes me kind of ignore the 15 he threw with a horrendous oline and no WR this past year.  

4th in TD%

3rd in INT%

5th in QBR

9th in YPG

8th in Wins

[Chisoxfn]

The question is - is the fact the Eagles are leaking this - them trying to drive up the price for another team - or is this just a bunch of crap.  

[dasox24]

On 2/5/2021 at 11:04 PM, Chisoxfn said:

I don't disagree with this - other than I would not ride with Foles to start in any scenario. I'd draft a QB and roll the dice on a Winston type.  Two shots - than try again.  But when Bears kept Pace around - it meant Pace was going to try.  As long as McCaskey doesn't let him burn the franchise to the ground - I have no issue with the above and to be honest - I don't hate the Wentz idea.  

Yeah, totally fair.  I was being simplistic by referring to Foles, but basically my point was that we shouldn't invest in any QB long-term (either contractually or by giving up assets) unless it's a legit Top 5 QB who can make us a perennial super bowl contender.  I would either sign a free agent to a short-term deal (even if it's like the Glennon contract where we could easily get out of it after Year 1),or ride with Foles, and then try again next year.

Drafting a QB would be an acceptable alternative to my scenario, but personally, I don't see anyone at #20 worth taking.  Nor do I see anyone (except Travor Lawrence and the JAX pick is untouchable) worth trading up for because the cost to move up would be astronomical.  If you're going to give up as much as it would take, then you better be getting as sure of a thing as possible.

As for Wentz, I don't hate him in a vacuum.  He's better than any QB on the roster (which isn't saying much).  My problem with Wentz (or the other guys I mentioned) is the likely cost to trade for him.  Given his struggles and his contract (the first "out" is after 2022 where you'd have $15M in dead cap, but $19M in cap savings - which is still not great but not terrible), I would offer nothing more than a 3rd round pick for Wentz.

Edited February 7, 2021 by dasox24

[dasox24]

12 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

See, I disagree with a lot of this. Wentz and Garoppolo recently quarterbacked teams that went to the Super Bowl. Wentz may not be that QB physically any more I will grant, but you can’t tell me that those guys can’t make the super bowl when they did. And you can’t tell me the Bears don’t have a defense that can make the Super Bowl if they get some help from the offense - the Bears had a better scoring defense in 2019 than the 49ers. 

Put an average offense on the field with a strong defense and you harm be a team that can make noise. 

What I meant was that those guys aren't QBs who give your team a legitimate shot each year to be a Super Bowl contender.  Anyone can make a Super Bowl once if they're surrounded by an elite defense and a really good running game (hello, Rex Grossman and Jimmy Garoppolo).  But that doesn't mean they'll ever get back there.  Hell, Jimmy G's own team is looking to move on from him.  They know he's not the guy.

And Wentz didn't make the Super Bowl - didn't even play in the playoffs that year.  But to your point, he was putting up very good numbers that year before he tore his ACL.  That was 3 years ago, though.

[SoxAce]

Reek shuttin the rumor down.

 

[bmags]

I watched Wentz 2019 highlight reel. Lord help me.

Now I’ll be disappointed if they don’t get him.

[soxfan49]

15 hours ago, Chisoxfn said:

This is so not going to happen.  I know I am a huge outlier - but I am so giddy at the though - especially in a scenario where Bears are basically just trading back from 1st to 2nd round. 

For anyone who can ignore 2020 (which is just 1 year). This is Wentz from 2017-2020.  Yes - I would sign up any day for the Bears to get a QB who can rank like that over a 3 year span.  Its also that INT% - which he consistently barely threw - that makes me kind of ignore the 15 he threw with a horrendous oline and no WR this past year.  

4th in TD%

3rd in INT%

5th in QBR

9th in YPG

8th in Wins

He would come here and play with no OL and WR's too

His arrival would mean Massie is cut, Robinson walks (the smart thing would be the tag then trade), no 1st rounder to address OL and literally about 20M over the cap

[ShoeLessRob]

49 minutes ago, soxfan49 said:

He would come here and play with no OL and WR's too

His arrival would mean Massie is cut, Robinson walks (the smart thing would be the tag then trade), no 1st rounder to address OL and literally about 20M over the cap

Bingo. 

[ShoeLessRob]

9 hours ago, bmags said:

I watched Wentz 2019 highlight reel. Lord help me.

Now I’ll be disappointed if they don’t get him.

Here ya go.

 

[Soxbadger]

I hope that Pace watched the Super Bowl and realized that even Mahomes cant win with an o lone that can't block 4 guys and a defense that can't stop anything.

Hoard more picks, get more players. There will be other opportunities to trade 1st round picks for a QB if you do everything else right.

This is the way. 

Edited February 8, 2021 by Soxbadger

[CentralChamps21]

8 hours ago, Soxbadger said:

I hope that Pace watched the Super Bowl and realized that even Mahomes cant win with an o lone that can't block 4 guys and a defense that can't stop anything.

Hoard more picks, get more players. There will be other opportunities to trade 1st round picks for a QB if you do everything else right.

This is the way. 

This 100%. Picking up a QB that costs anything more than free agent dollars or a low round draft pick is pointless. If any of Nick Foles, Allen Robinson, Khalil Mack, Roquan Smith can bring back a premium return, make the deal. Get all the OL and DL you can get in the next two drafts, build a team that dominates the line on both sides, and then figure out QB.

[GoSox05]

Rare to see that Chiefs offense look that bad. I guess pressuring a QB 29 times is good.

I wish Tom Brady would retire, just sick of seeing the same dude in almost every Super Bowl.  NFL needs to step in and make him an announcer or something.

[The Beast]

18 minutes ago, GoSox05 said:

Rare to see that Chiefs offense look that bad. I guess pressuring a QB 29 times is good.

I wish Tom Brady would retire, just sick of seeing the same dude in almost every Super Bowl.  NFL needs to step in and make him an announcer or something.

I want Brady to go too. I have made repeated comments about how the old guard of quarterbacks needs to go and how it is time for a new era of football but nobody has responded or agrees, saying that the young players need to force them out instead of being picked apart by the likes of Brady or Rodgers.

If Brady doesn’t make it to the Super Bowl next year, I wonder if that convinces him to retire. If not, it seems like the only way to convince him is the way Brett Favre got convinced to go, a huge hit on the frozen tundra where he didn’t get up. 

It will be interesting to see the NFL without Brady, Rodgers, Roethlisberger, Brees and eventually guys like Ryan and Stafford, but mainly without the first four.

[bmags]

I'm not sure the whole "bears fan watches the super bowl and confirms all prior convictions on the bears" is that compelling to me.

To read the board you would believe simultaneously that:

- The 8-8 team was derailed by terrible QB play that the GM/coach should be fired for

- Also fixing the QB won't matter that much because the rest of the team is trash

- Also adding Tom Brady wouldn't have mattered

I think it's more likely than not that the defense can recover to top ten next year with a lot of the improvements coming internally. 

There are assumptions we don't yet know about a potential trade including:

- It will cost a 2021 first round pick

- It will cost the bears to lose Arob

- Both the salary cap and loss of pick cause bears to have a worse Oline next year

But the first bullet and second bullet could easily not be true. It may very well be a next year first. For the Eagles, that may be fine because it saves them a first round salary and they are already taking it in the teeth on cap hit for a year. For Robinson, they have the franchise. And if they franchise and then trade him, I'm confident they get a decent return + can open up quite a bit of salary. But they wouldn't do that because the WR market isn't good, so unless they get a first round pick

And as for the oline, I think that was the very biggest bright spot at the end of the year. The interior of Whitehair-Mustipher-Bars was much better, and they get to swap out Bars with James Daniels. And if they keep a first round pick, they are likely to be able to have two shots at a good tackle in either round 1 or 2 (or take two bites of the apple). 

Add to that, it's a good draft for WR talent.

This likely does not lead up to a super bowl. 

But the Bears are not rebuilding this year. I would have liked them to, and had they tanked, they could be looking at a new administration + Trey Lance or Josh Fields. But they aren't. They didn't tank because it turned out they had young talent on their offensive line, an interesting young tight end, young RB that hit his promise, darnell mooney + allen f'n robinson.

And for all the handwringing about leaving scorched earth for next admin, there is also in my mind a good possibility that Wentz is actually a top 12 QB and borderline top 10 QB, which if the defense truly sucks next year, the next admin would be leaving either an answer at QB, or a trade asset that will stock the cupboards quickly. Trading a QB with 3 years + only a first year of guaranteed cash? That would be a huge asset.

And if he sucks, they can move on next year. True, they may be out a first round pick, but they'd be wise to strip down anyway.

And what are the alternatives that don't "hurt the future" but also live in the reality that pace+nagy WILL try to improve the QB situation. Fitzpatrick? As I've said before, maybe if Bridgewater is cut, that would be the one nice stop gap.

Anyway, I think nfl chatter is way too front running. Just full goldfish memory and shouting that the current best team was the way everyone should do it, and when that team falls apart just proof that they weren't doing it the way the new best team is. The Chiefs are proof that the Bears shouldn't try to upgrade their QB? That team is loaded with talent, but had some unfortunate injuries. It happens. The Bears last year were the Buccaneers. The Rams this year were the buccaneers. But Tom Brady didn't want to go there. Now the Bears are a trash team full of trash that proves my theories about team building.

[bmags]

55 minutes ago, WhiteSoxFan1993 said:

This 100%. Picking up a QB that costs anything more than free agent dollars or a low round draft pick is pointless. If any of Nick Foles, Allen Robinson, Khalil Mack, Roquan Smith can bring back a premium return, make the deal. Get all the OL and DL you can get in the next two drafts, build a team that dominates the line on both sides, and then figure out QB.

In what world do you guys actually believe a QB will be available then? The Vikings built a dominant OL and DL, then tried to figure out QB. They couldn't do it in time and that dominant OL and DL started to diminish. The Bears in 2018 certainly seemed like it had a pretty good OL and DL. 2 years later it fell apart. When the Vikes needed a QB they just had to trade a first for one right? They got Sam Bradford. Cool.

Maybe you can't time things as well as you guys think. 

[Dick Allen]

Mahomes did kind of look like a Bears QB with back up tackles. And face it, Leno and whoever they throw in there on the right side aren't much more than back ups.

[CentralChamps21]

45 minutes ago, bmags said:

In what world do you guys actually believe a QB will be available then? The Vikings built a dominant OL and DL, then tried to figure out QB. They couldn't do it in time and that dominant OL and DL started to diminish. The Bears in 2018 certainly seemed like it had a pretty good OL and DL. 2 years later it fell apart. When the Vikes needed a QB they just had to trade a first for one right? They got Sam Bradford. Cool.

Maybe you can't time things as well as you guys think. 

This year alone, Stafford and Watson are available on the trade market. Bears don't have the cap space or the draft picks to get them. Work now to have that cap space and those picks in a couple years. Someone will be available, either an existing player or trading up in the draft.

[Dick Allen]

9 minutes ago, WhiteSoxFan1993 said:

This year alone, Stafford and Watson are available on the trade market. Bears don't have the cap space or the draft picks to get them. Work now to have that cap space and those picks in a couple years. Someone will be available, either an existing player or trading up in the draft.

I tend to agree. Their window has closed. Get things lined up for the next window with someone else's vision or you are going to be looking at a pretty bleak decade of football. No one is going to trade this team the dominant QB it needs to have a shot right now. Giving Pace another shot at picking a QB is like the White Sox hiring Greg  as the GM after he told them TA as a catcher made some sense.

Edited February 8, 2021 by Dick Allen

[whitesoxfan99]

34 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Mahomes did kind of look like a Bears QB with back up tackles. And face it, Leno and whoever they throw in there on the right side aren't much more than back ups.

It also didn’t help that Reid and Bieniemy decided to never try to block with more than 5 guys yesterday despite their offensive line being destroyed.  
 

Outrageously bad coaching job by the Chiefs yesterday.  And with how the Bucs dominated on the lines on both sides of the ball it may not have mattered but the Chiefs staff put their team in a position to fail.