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Fire Ricky

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1 hour ago, Tony said:

I thought about this a lot as well the last day or so. Say they won, which would have been great. What then? You can't really do this again after Gio and Keuchle, especially not knowing what those two will give you. You simply can't get by with 2 starters for very long. 

Sure you could - normal series you get more off days you try to get them to pitch 3-4 times each series; This wasn't normal though and fact that they couldn't pitch anyone always made this a really tough road to go deep. This rotation has potential - but the wheels fell off the wagon and they weren't ready.  Just wish they got the hits to take this one more round.  It was still a really fun season.  

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20 minutes ago, gusguyman said:

I've been super critical of RR and a member of the Fire Ricky bandwagon all season, yet today of all days I feel like he doesn't deserve 90% of the criticism he is getting and the loss really wasn't his fault.

 What sort of bizarro world have I entered and how do I get back?

Still fire him for how he managed the rest of the season though.

So in the first inning.  You pull your starter?  After 15 pitches.  Notice the other team didnt do that.  Which one was better setup later in the game to win it.  

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2 minutes ago, southsideirish71 said:

So in the first inning.  You pull your starter?  After 15 pitches.  Notice the other team didnt do that.  Which one was better setup later in the game to win it.  

If your starter has only played 8 total MLB games, and he's basically the least experienced starter in the playoffs this year (and in your team's entire history i believe) and you've told everyone coming into the game that you're pulling him when there are 2 men on, and 2 men get on...you would certainly think about it.

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7 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

If your starter has only played 8 total MLB games, and he's basically the least experienced starter in the playoffs this year (and in your team's entire history i believe) and you've told everyone coming into the game that you're pulling him when there are 2 men on, and 2 men get on...you would certainly think about it.

Then he shouldnt of started.  They should of went to someone else then.  We all knew it was a bullpen game.  But I dont think anyone had a clue that it was a 15 pitches and 2 guys on and its over type of start.  Thats madness.  

 

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33 minutes ago, gusguyman said:

I've been super critical of RR and a member of the Fire Ricky bandwagon all season, yet today of all days I feel like he doesn't deserve 90% of the criticism he is getting and the loss really wasn't his fault.

What sort of bizarro world have I entered and how do I get back?

Still fire him for how he managed the rest of the season though.

I agree. The players didn’t come up big when we needed it, the game was there for the W even in the 9th we just didn’t convert. However I’m still beating the Fire Ricky drum just because he’s not the guy to get you to win the damn thing and if we wait we just kick that can down the road yet another season. 

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23 minutes ago, southsideirish71 said:

Then he shouldnt of started.  They should of went to someone else then.  We all knew it was a bullpen game.  But I dont think anyone had a clue that it was a 15 pitches and 2 guys on and its over type of start.  Thats madness.  

 

Who else? Rodon? Crochet? Cease? 

Had Dunning gotten a little lucky he might have given them a couple of innings. We didn't get there. He was going to have to pitch, look how much trouble the rest of the bullpen had with 1+ innings? Would we have been better with a different opener?

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Ricky on using Rodon “When we bring these guys in, we don't go in there expecting that they're going to fail. We go in there expecting that they can work. And obviously Los is really good. His fastball was good, his slider was really good. And they ended up getting him, and that's it."

 

Wat?

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20 minutes ago, southsideirish71 said:

So in the first inning.  You pull your starter?  After 15 pitches.  Notice the other team didnt do that.  Which one was better setup later in the game to win it.  

Short answer, yeah, I do.

Long answer

1) Dunning - I don't agree that you don't start Dunning at all. The bullpen looked gassed down the stretch, and in hindsight, considering how young it is, the question of whether they will crack under playoff pressure should have been a much bigger storyline. Asking 5 or 6 out of 7 guys to all bring their A game is tough. If you can steal one time through the order with Dunning, that is huge, because now  you can skip whatever RP comes out and looks shaky.

As for Dunning, he has proven he has the ability to get you 3-4 innings of shutout ball, but he has also proven he has the ability to give up the game in the first inning. You tell him straight up that he's out as soon as he hits his first jam, and you take whatever he gives you. Unfortunately it wasn't much, but the aggression in going to Crochet was perfect. Now you are back to the bullpen day anyway, no harm done, and the upside was worth the risk.

This is the exact sort of aggressive, creative pitching strategy that many of us have criticized the sox for not trying.

As for the other moves

2) Bummer - Once Crochet got injured you are in trouble, but I also think this is the one real mistake Ricky made - bringing in bummer. I think RR had a script - try dunning, if he's out go to crochet, but either way they get you to the 4th and you go from there. We have seen that RR has trouble deviating from the script. Once Crochet got injured I think Ricky panicked and reached for his blanket - Bummer. From a human standpoint, I get it, but Bummer is far and away your best fireman, you need to keep that bullet in the chamber, not bring him in with one out in the second and no one on. I go Foster there, who has been a lockdown longman all year. 

3) Heuer - After that, maybe you argue you leave in Bummer longer, but he did look gassed, and RR wanted the righty righty matchup. Maybe you want to take Heuer out earlier, but we were desperately low on arms at that point. If anything, once the damage was done on the HR I would have actually given him one more batter, but he was obviously gassed too.

4) Rodon - I'm fine with Rodon coming in. We needed someone to cover outs at that point. Rodon has sucked, but look at the situation - two outs, nobody on. If he gets the guy out and looks good, you bring him back for the 5th (STILL JUST THE 4th!!!). If he looks bad, he still only needs one out, or worst case his replacement only needs one out. ONE! It is about as low risk a spot as you can put Rodon in. 

5) Foster -  Ofc Rodon somehow manages to load the bases even in that easy of a scenario. Now is exactly when you need bummer, but he is out, so it is Foster or Marshall. I'd have preferred Evan, again I think Foster is excellent at getting you 2 innings but he isn't really a strand guy. But by that point you are kind of fucked either way, and Foster has still been good for us. He imploded and didn't even give the defense a chance, not much RR can do there.

 

In the end, IDK what else Ricky could really have done. One credit I will give to RR is that all year he has found a way to ride the nights hot bullpen hand for more than an inning, which was a big part of their success. Today, not a single guy besides Marshall was ready to step up and shoulder the load. Can't go to Cease, who has been bad and has never pitched back to back days. Can't go to Fry, who has been bad and is the only lefty true RP left, so you need him in case you need the lefty matchup with runners on base (since Rodon failed in that "test" in the regular season so at least we knew that). Turns out you could go to Cordero, but come on, who saw that coming? Cordero has been bad and just threw almost 3 innings yesterday.

If you want to criticize RR for this game, criticize the fact that we completely blew off the last week of the season to get guys ready for this situation, and all the bullpen arms still looked gassed. 

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Massive novel of a defense aside, I still fire RR for how bad he has been in all the other games. My plan would be:

1) Fire RR

2) Tell him to take Capra and Super Joe with him. Menechino stays. Boston can stay too if he wants, I have no strong opinions on him which is exactly what I am looking for in a 1st base coach.

3) Call Coop and tell him you'll miss him, but you understand his decision and the retirement party will be next Friday.

4) Bring up Justin Jirschele for manager, Matt Zaleski for PC, and literally whoever for 3rd base. Maybe just hire some Stanford math whiz with a computer and a LIDAR camera lol.

5) Hire AJ Hinch as bench coach, to give you world series wining experience (specifically taking a rebuilding team across the finish line) to offset the inexperience of the staff, and can also give you whatever last secrets of (legal!) player development the Astros have left. He'll take the job too, since he needs to rehab his image. 

I understand a lot of people will hate (5) which I totally understand. Point is really just to bring in an experienced guy, plenty of good options out there. I think Hinch would be a great fit though if he convinces you in an interview that he isn't a piece of shit.

Edited by gusguyman
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2 hours ago, A-Train to 35th said:

#1 RR shouldn't have shown his hand by pitching Cease the day before, Dunning was the only choice we had left and the A's knew it

#2 Having another rookie warming up after your rookie starting pitcher gave up a hit

#3 Going with 2 rookies in a game 3 clinching game.  

#4 They could have ruined Crochets career by using him the way they did the last week and the last 2 days.  Let's hope it's not TJ.

That set the tone for the entire game.  The manager showed no confidence in his rookie pitcher or his entire team of sluggers by warming up Crochet after a hit.

 

I knew Sox had lost when with four innings to go the Sox had Frye, Cordero, Cease and Colome left and that was it. RR as expected had a bad day (not helped by the Crochet injury at all and the Eloy injury) and the Sox had just one homer. The Sox bullpen walked nine guys and the Sox hitters didn't loft enough home runs. Game over. Wish at least one of the games was in The Cell. That rule has to change in a non COVID season. Even with no fans Sox needed the familiar Cell to bash some more home runs today.

BTW: It wasn't meant to be. If it was meant to be Dallas would have been unstoppable in Game Two and the Sox nailed down an impressive two-game sweep and carried that into the Houston series. Maybe at that point the Sox start Cease and Dunning and hope for they come through and go five and not play a ridiculous brand of baseball in which the starter doesn't exit inning No. One. As badly as the Sox played they were a clutch hit or two from winning yesterday and today both. Many many failed to get that hit, including my guy, Jose baby.

Edited by greg775

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I think there are a few things in today's game that could be second guess (Eloy batting 4th in his fist game back) but this series was more on the players than the manager. The Sox left too many on base and their relievers put themselves in too many bad situations. That being said, Eloy and Crochet being injured really impacted the Series. The Crochet injury changed the game.

 

We will never know, but I think the plan was to start a right hander, get all the lefties in the lineup then have Crochet try and get through the line up 1 time. Dunning looked shaky and I think Renteria was trying to be aggressive because that is how much confidence they had in Crochet. 

The craziest part is they only gave up 6 runs. The Sox offense had chances and it just never went there way. 

For all the Xs and Os bullshit, the best players need to come through. 

I think we were one Heuer pitch away from winning that game. Could tell he seemed to be pressing a little, he has just been so good and the Sox really needed that out. Cant even be mad because Heuer been so great.

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I felt terrible that Heuer gave that home run up, That was a ball buster.  The guy just guessed right on location and speed and wailed on it.

I can't wrap my mind around this play-off series loss yet. 

 

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2 hours ago, gusguyman said:

Short answer, yeah, I do.

Long answer

1) Dunning - I don't agree that you don't start Dunning at all. The bullpen looked gassed down the stretch, and in hindsight, considering how young it is, the question of whether they will crack under playoff pressure should have been a much bigger storyline. Asking 5 or 6 out of 7 guys to all bring their A game is tough. If you can steal one time through the order with Dunning, that is huge, because now  you can skip whatever RP comes out and looks shaky.

As for Dunning, he has proven he has the ability to get you 3-4 innings of shutout ball, but he has also proven he has the ability to give up the game in the first inning. You tell him straight up that he's out as soon as he hits his first jam, and you take whatever he gives you. Unfortunately it wasn't much, but the aggression in going to Crochet was perfect. Now you are back to the bullpen day anyway, no harm done, and the upside was worth the risk.

This is the exact sort of aggressive, creative pitching strategy that many of us have criticized the sox for not trying.

As for the other moves

2) Bummer - Once Crochet got injured you are in trouble, but I also think this is the one real mistake Ricky made - bringing in bummer. I think RR had a script - try dunning, if he's out go to crochet, but either way they get you to the 4th and you go from there. We have seen that RR has trouble deviating from the script. Once Crochet got injured I think Ricky panicked and reached for his blanket - Bummer. From a human standpoint, I get it, but Bummer is far and away your best fireman, you need to keep that bullet in the chamber, not bring him in with one out in the second and no one on. I go Foster there, who has been a lockdown longman all year. 

3) Heuer - After that, maybe you argue you leave in Bummer longer, but he did look gassed, and RR wanted the righty righty matchup. Maybe you want to take Heuer out earlier, but we were desperately low on arms at that point. If anything, once the damage was done on the HR I would have actually given him one more batter, but he was obviously gassed too.

4) Rodon - I'm fine with Rodon coming in. We needed someone to cover outs at that point. Rodon has sucked, but look at the situation - two outs, nobody on. If he gets the guy out and looks good, you bring him back for the 5th (STILL JUST THE 4th!!!). If he looks bad, he still only needs one out, or worst case his replacement only needs one out. ONE! It is about as low risk a spot as you can put Rodon in. 

5) Foster -  Ofc Rodon somehow manages to load the bases even in that easy of a scenario. Now is exactly when you need bummer, but he is out, so it is Foster or Marshall. I'd have preferred Evan, again I think Foster is excellent at getting you 2 innings but he isn't really a strand guy. But by that point you are kind of fucked either way, and Foster has still been good for us. He imploded and didn't even give the defense a chance, not much RR can do there.

 

In the end, IDK what else Ricky could really have done. One credit I will give to RR is that all year he has found a way to ride the nights hot bullpen hand for more than an inning, which was a big part of their success. Today, not a single guy besides Marshall was ready to step up and shoulder the load. Can't go to Cease, who has been bad and has never pitched back to back days. Can't go to Fry, who has been bad and is the only lefty true RP left, so you need him in case you need the lefty matchup with runners on base (since Rodon failed in that "test" in the regular season so at least we knew that). Turns out you could go to Cordero, but come on, who saw that coming? Cordero has been bad and just threw almost 3 innings yesterday.

If you want to criticize RR for this game, criticize the fact that we completely blew off the last week of the season to get guys ready for this situation, and all the bullpen arms still looked gassed. 

Excellent post.  I echo these assessments.  Used Bummer too soon and things snowballed after that.  Foster was put in an impossible situation and unfortunately couldn't get it done.  

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2 hours ago, southsideirish71 said:

Ricky on using Rodon “When we bring these guys in, we don't go in there expecting that they're going to fail. We go in there expecting that they can work. And obviously Los is really good. His fastball was good, his slider was really good. And they ended up getting him, and that's it."

 

Wat?

Laughable.  RR isnt exactly working from an accurate assessment of the pitcher Rodon currently is in that quote.

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8 hours ago, southsideirish71 said:

Ricky on using Rodon “When we bring these guys in, we don't go in there expecting that they're going to fail. We go in there expecting that they can work. And obviously Los is really good. His fastball was good, his slider was really good. And they ended up getting him, and that's it."

 

Wat?

Jesus.

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i do think Hahn will release Renteria.  Ventura actually convinced Hahn to hire him  and Hahn eventually chose him to take Robin's place.  I think just as important is giving Coop a gold watch and choosing a new combination of manager and pitching coach.  If the Sox had won yesterday, RR may have kept his job but the time is probably right at this point.  Hopefully the Sox move quickly as I am sure there will be more openings besides Boston .  Maybe Hahn has already done his homework  and will get a jump on the competition.  

On when RR was hired: 

 

The White Sox noted that Renteria is the only Latino manager in the majors, and general manager Rick Hahn said his ability to communicate with players in English and Spanish was a "real plus".Rick is incredibly well respected within the game as one of the top baseball men," Hahn said. "He is a knowledgeable teacher of the game who loves to develop players and spends hours watching video looking for any nuance that gives us an edge."

https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/rick-renteria-hired-replace-robin-ventura-white-sox-manager-article-1.2815668

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MyY hope is that they reassign him within the organization.  I think he is a positive influence to the organization and can help the team.  I hope they look at Coooper and decide it is time for him to do something new with his time. 

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I thought Hahn would move on from RR( and also Coop) but with no announcement in the last few days, that may not be the case. Hinch and Cora's names are both being floated in Boston and Detroit already. If Hahn is making a change, hesitation could limit some candidates as jobs get filled. Maybe the Sox go internal /alumni and are not concerned w choices outside the organization. But not moving right away may also mean Hahn is not making a change.  

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On 10/1/2020 at 9:31 PM, Balta1701 said:

Who else? Rodon? Crochet? Cease? 

Had Dunning gotten a little lucky he might have given them a couple of innings. We didn't get there. He was going to have to pitch, look how much trouble the rest of the bullpen had with 1+ innings? Would we have been better with a different opener?

Shoulda started deGrom but he's not on the team.  So he picked a number out of a hat.  You got a better idea?

On 10/1/2020 at 11:32 PM, tray said:

I felt terrible that Heuer gave that home run up, That was a ball buster.  The guy just guessed right on location and speed and wailed on it.

I can't wrap my mind around this play-off series loss yet. 

 

That one hurt but Heuer's still got a big future right here.  That one and the failure of the offense in the clutch.  We'll get 'em next year.

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