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Counterpoint: Yasmani Grandal is good and there's no reason to actively seek to limit his role

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McCann is the clear cut 2nd best free agent catcher available. We have to outbid everyone plus promise him enough playing time. I don't see a realistic shot of resigning him, even though I would love to have him back.

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Just now, thxfrthmmrs said:

McCann is the clear cut 2nd best free agent catcher available. We have to outbid everyone plus promise him enough playing time. I don't see a realistic shot of resigning him, even though I would love to have him back.

Gotta tell ya - I think looking at catcher position for the offseason is a good realization for how tough this offseason is going to be.

Who are the prime candidates for Realmuto? He could re-sign with Philly...then Mets? Toronto? And who knows if either are in a position to really chase a position like that. Then cleveland, toronto are possible destinations.

The biggest shake-up could be if Yadi retires, and cards go after a McCann.

And then you have a scenario of the cubs dangling contreras, which they've promised big changes and could go back to that well with him as he seems to frustrate them.

There aren't that many teams that seem like they'd prioritize catcher with budget given all the injuries to pitchers last year. It's going to be interesting to see this shake out.

 

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8 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said:

Counterpoint: Yasmani Grandal is good and there's no reason to actively seek to limit his role

That's a solid counterpoint.  He was good and basically performed like...well, like Yasmani Grandal.

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20 minutes ago, hogan873 said:

That's a solid counterpoint.  He was good and basically performed like...well, like Yasmani Grandal.

I mean, the problem with Grandal is the problem it's always been - good overall performance, but occasionally makes high leverage, boneheaded play that he really shouldn't make. Pitchers will notice that stuff too, and they're liable to get frustrated by them. 

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12 minutes ago, bmags said:

Gotta tell ya - I think looking at catcher position for the offseason is a good realization for how tough this offseason is going to be.

Who are the prime candidates for Realmuto? He could re-sign with Philly...then Mets? Toronto? And who knows if either are in a position to really chase a position like that. Then cleveland, toronto are possible destinations.

The biggest shake-up could be if Yadi retires, and cards go after a McCann.

And then you have a scenario of the cubs dangling contreras, which they've promised big changes and could go back to that well with him as he seems to frustrate them.

There aren't that many teams that seem like they'd prioritize catcher with budget given all the injuries to pitchers last year. It's going to be interesting to see this shake out.

 

Realmuto might be out of price range for a lot of teams and McCann would be the more realistic out option. Besides Contreras and maybe a Keibert Ruiz, who both would command top prospects or cost controlled resources in return, there isn't a better option on the trade market either.

I look at the list of contending team who could in the market for a C, here's what I have: Nats, Mets, Indians, Astros, Yankees, Rockies and Cards (if Yadi retires) . I could see Blue Jays and Marlins having some interest too even if it's not a priority. I couldn't imagine no team is willing to pay starter money and a starting job to McCann with how weak the free agent class is for catchers.

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36 minutes ago, bmags said:

I don't see it being easy to trade Grandal. Maybe the loser to a Realmuto sweepstakes, where you trade to a Mets or Phillies. You will need a team with a real need at catcher since teams may view that salary as a luxury at catcher.

I struggle to see it being easy to move any expensive players this year, but you could probably do it if you packaged Grandal with something valuable like Thompson, for example. 

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2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I mean, the problem with Grandal is the problem it's always been - good overall performance, but occasionally makes high leverage, boneheaded play that he really shouldn't make. Pitchers will notice that stuff too, and they're liable to get frustrated by them. 

That's valid, but (as you acknowledged) we knew that before he was signed, so if it was gonna be this big of an issue, the signing shouldn't have happened.

 

IMO, his pluses far outweigh those negatives, although I understand why people get so frustrated by them. However, what I don't get is the idea that McCann is some polar opposite. He was at the top of the league in catcher's interference errors and, like Grandal, also dropped a routine pop-up.

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And I also have to put Tigers as the dark horse to reunite with McCann - both of their catchers are free agents, and with a trio of young arms in Mize, Skubal and Manning, having a veteran who could work with the young arms is something they might invest in.

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1 hour ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

Dallas Keuchel pitched better with Grandal. Let me ask you this. James McCann is on the roster and playing catcher. Who plays DH on the days McCann catches? Grandal, Abreu and Vaughn are on the roster too. None of this makes any sense. 

First of all, I liked you post. What I'll say though is that this was a very small subset of baseball we witnessed and the success of pitchers with certain catchers is tough to assess as being the barometer of a catcher's prowess. Now McCann has always been known to be a favorite of a lot of pitchers. He had this rep even as a Tiger. Personally I think that he is a very good defensive catcher and calls a good game. I think that Grandal is better at getting strikes called and is a slightly better hitter. To me, both are deserving of a top five rating over-all in baseball as catchers.

 As for where Grandal plays when McCann catches, I'd say that he plays either 1B or DHs. Its not a big problem really to me, although I would love to see the Sox give Mercedes a chance before they release him. I just think that if they didn't sign EE and went with Mercedes, they'd have gotten a lot more production out of the DH slot. 

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7 minutes ago, thxfrthmmrs said:

Realmuto might be out of price range for a lot of teams and McCann would be the more realistic out option. Besides Contreras and maybe a Keibert Ruiz, who both would command top prospects or cost controlled resources in return, there isn't a better option on the trade market either.

I look at the list of contending team who could in the market for a C, here's what I have: Nats, Mets, Indians, Astros, Yankees, Rockies and Cards (if Yadi retires) . I could see Blue Jays and Marlins having some interest too even if it's not a priority. I couldn't imagine no team is willing to pay starter money and a starting job to McCann with how weak the free agent class is for catchers.

What do you think about a trade market for Grandal? Like you said, the market for good two way catchers is high and the talent pool is very low. The Sox have an over-all honey pot in catching right now.

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12 minutes ago, thxfrthmmrs said:

Realmuto might be out of price range for a lot of teams and McCann would be the more realistic out option. Besides Contreras and maybe a Keibert Ruiz, who both would command top prospects or cost controlled resources in return, there isn't a better option on the trade market either.

I look at the list of contending team who could in the market for a C, here's what I have: Nats, Mets, Indians, Astros, Yankees, Rockies and Cards (if Yadi retires) . I could see Blue Jays and Marlins having some interest too even if it's not a priority. I couldn't imagine no team is willing to pay starter money and a starting job to McCann with how weak the free agent class is for catchers.

A lot of those teams will have severe salary decisions and that's where I'm questioning how much exactly are we worried about McCann making?

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Grandal isn’t going anywhere.  
 

How many future big name free agents would the Sox be able to attract if the player knew that one year after the player has committed to coming to the team and city for the long term, the team might turn around and trade them away?  
 

Maybe the team can find a way to bring McCann back, but it won’t be because they’ve traded Grandal away to open up a spot for him.  Not going to happen.

Edited by Thad Bosley

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11 minutes ago, bmags said:

A lot of those teams will have severe salary decisions and that's where I'm questioning how much exactly are we worried about McCann making?

The way I look at it, if you factor in the $20-30M Sox will certainly spend on starting pitching, we’re up against the same resource constraint in this climate as other teams I just mentioned (outside of Yankees who might be at luxury tax). There are other teams that need McCann more than the Sox, and there are who could offer more to McCann, both money and playing time, than the Sox could.

I have said before that I think more players will take one year deals this off-season to wait for market to bounce back next year. The scenario I see with McCann resigning is he takes a 1+1 deal with a player option in year 2. He gets let’s say $8-10M a year and stays on a team that will put him in situations that will maximize his value and try this again next offseason.

Edited by thxfrthmmrs
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1 hour ago, bmags said:

I don't see it being easy to trade Grandal. Maybe the loser to a Realmuto sweepstakes, where you trade to a Mets or Phillies. You will need a team with a real need at catcher since teams may view that salary as a luxury at catcher.

This should be the end.  Only one team was willing to pay him $18 million a year last year.  Now in the worst free agent market in baseball history, you are going to find another team that is willing to do so?  Eh. 

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Because Indians, I wonder if CLE would do Carlos Carrasco for Grandal in some sort of framework.  Normally they just like to dump bad contracts on us and I know they love Carrasco as a teammate but he's still making money and they still have to pay him through his age 35 season.  Meanwhile Carlos Santana is a FA after a $500K buyout and they have nothing at C.  Seems like it would be a fit on paper if they were in another division.

Edit: Trading Grandal for Carrasco, reupping McCann, and that makes us a better team for probably about the same amount of money that it would cost to keep Grandal and sign a 5th starter type.

Edited by YourWhatHurts

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Trading Grandal would be one of the stupidest things the Sox could possibly do. Makes me sick.

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13 minutes ago, YourWhatHurts said:

Because Indians, I wonder if CLE would do Carlos Carrasco for Grandal in some sort of framework.  Normally they just like to dump bad contracts on us and I know they love Carrasco as a teammate but he's still making money and they still have to pay him through his age 35 season.  Meanwhile Carlos Santana is a FA after a $500K buyout and they have nothing at C.  Seems like it would be a fit on paper if they were in another division.

Edit: Trading Grandal for Carrasco, reupping McCann, and that makes us a better team for probably about the same amount of money that it would cost to keep Grandal and sign a 5th starter type.

The Indians are dumping salary including Lindor.  If they move Carrasco too, they will just use him to load up on prospects, and not reburden themselves with a long term contract.

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7 minutes ago, Orlando said:

Trading Grandal would be one of the stupidest things the Sox could possibly do. Makes me sick.

Why? Every player should be "tradable" with the right offer being made.

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28 minutes ago, Orlando said:

Trading Grandal would be one of the stupidest things the Sox could possibly do. Makes me sick.

Its just insane.  Sox sign one of the best 2 catchers in the game to a very reasonable FA contract.  He is the guy he always was and remains an unbelievably good fit for the future lineup.  And half the fanbase wants to trade him to make space for a guy that is measurably worse player, a measurably worse fit, and a FA that will command a decent commitment this offseason.  

Makes zero sense whatsoever.  

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2 hours ago, thxfrthmmrs said:

The way I look at it, if you factor in the $20-30M Sox will certainly spend on starting pitching, we’re up against the same resource constraint in this climate as other teams I just mentioned (outside of Yankees who might be at luxury tax). There are other teams that need McCann more than the Sox, and there are who could offer more to McCann, both money and playing time, than the Sox could.

I have said before that I think more players will take one year deals this off-season to wait for market to bounce back next year. The scenario I see with McCann resigning is he takes a 1+1 deal with a player option in year 2. He gets let’s say $8-10M a year and stays on a team that will put him in situations that will maximize his value and try this again next offseason.

I agree with this.  Is $8-10 realistic?

 

All it takes is one team pissed they missed out on Realmuto. 

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1 hour ago, The Hawk said:

Why? Every player should be "tradable" with the right offer being made.

Good luck getting any other top tier free agent when you trade one one year after signing with you. Especially when said player is leaps and bounds better than the alternative (McCann) who is an internet legend. Give me a break.

Edited by Orlando

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