Why was Dunning pulled after 15 pitches?

[Dick Allen]

It all doesn't matter much in the long run because if they only had 2 starters they trust for more than one or two baserunners, they were bowing out next round for sure.

[reiks12]

2 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

If the plan was to use Crochet for a few innings early, why didn't they start him? 

Because the concept of an opener is too 'new school' for the likes of Cooper and Co.

[Dick Allen]

On a bullpen day, it's best not to burn Crochet, Bummer and Heuer by the 4th inning, especially since Foster and Marshall have come back down to earth recently..

[RagahRagah]

5 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

The Big Hurt said warming a guy up the second Dunning gave up 1 hit did two very bad things. It ruined Dunning's confidence, and it hurt the rest of the team's confidence. If the plan is to use 8 or 9 guys, chances are there are going to be a couple, if not more, that don't have it that day. You can't be afraid of 1 run in the first inning.

If the plan was to use Crochet for a few innings early, why didn't they start him? 

I couldn't agree more. You just don't handle a starter this way. I believe most managers are guilty of this to a degree now, though. As soon as the playoffs start, once a starter gives up a run or 2 they go into panic mode.

[fathom]

1 minute ago, Dick Allen said:

On a bullpen day, it's best not to burn Crochet, Bummer and Heuer by the 4th inning, especially since Foster and Marshall have come back down to earth recently..

They also shouldn’t have pitched Heuer in game 2 if they knew a bullpen game was coming 

[Dick Allen]

1 minute ago, KonerkoFan1 said:

I couldn't agree more. You just don't handle a starter this way. I believe most managers are guilty of this to a degree now, though. As soon as the playoffs start, once a starter gives up a run or 2 they go into panic mode.

It was interesting what he said, because I never really thought of it. A guy warming up after 1 hit to start the game makes the team think the manager doesn't think his offense can score. And the funny thing is, there was nothing that happened in the top of the first that would make you think it was going to be a 2-1 game.

[RagahRagah]

Just now, Dick Allen said:

It was interesting what he said, because I never really thought of it. A guy warming up after 1 hit to start the game makes the team think the manager doesn't think his offense can score. And the funny thing is, there was nothing that happened in the top of the first that would make you think it was going to be a 2-1 game.

Yeah, I realize I didn't state the difference here being that a run hadn't even come across yet.

[Harold's Leg Lift]

5 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

It was interesting what he said, because I never really thought of it. A guy warming up after 1 hit to start the game makes the team think the manager doesn't think his offense can score. And the funny thing is, there was nothing that happened in the top of the first that would make you think it was going to be a 2-1 game.

If this team showed anything this year it's that they can take a punch.  I will never understand why Ricky was so scared to give up a run in the 1st inning.

[fathom]

2 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

If this team showed anything this year it's that they can take a punch.  I will never understand why Ricky was so scared to give up a run in the 1st inning.

They had no faith in any of their young starters, and I don’t blame them for how they finished the season. The Sox best chance of giving up a minimum number of runs was getting their main pen guys involved. It just didn’t work due to the injury unfortunately.

[yesterday333]

2 minutes ago, fathom said:

They had no faith in any of their young starters, and I don’t blame them for how they finished the season. The Sox best chance of giving up a minimum number of runs was getting their main pen guys involved. It just didn’t work due to the injury unfortunately.

I think you are expecting too much to go right in this case. What if the rookie comes in and lays an egg and walks 3 or 4 cuz of nerves? Just give Dunning a couple more innings. But I don’t blame RR cuz this is what most people thought we should do. 

[Rowand44]

10 minutes ago, fathom said:

They had no faith in any of their young starters, and I don’t blame them for how they finished the season. The Sox best chance of giving up a minimum number of runs was getting their main pen guys involved. It just didn’t work due to the injury unfortunately.

Right but that means Dane shouldn't have started to begin with.  That said in Ricky's defense(I know) and as you said, everything was fucked after the Crochet injury anyways.

[fathom]

Just now, Rowand44 said:

Right but that means Dane shouldn't have started to begin with.  That said in Ricky's defense(I know) and as you said, everything was fucked after the Crochet injury anyways.

Foster should have been given a game during the Cubs series to start as the opener again and then start yesterday.

[greg775]

1 hour ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

He pulled his starter in the 1st and burned his three best relievers by the 3rd.  He managed scared and the team knew it.  

Exactly. It might be cliche (a bit) but your "managing scared" line is correct. Yes he should have left Dunning in, hindsight being what it is. By the middle innings he had a batch of horrible matchups occurring on this day because he didn't give his starter a chance and he had an injury. It could have been 3-0 A's. Big deal. Sox have a potent lineup. It's ALL second guessing sure but Ricky deserves the second guessing now. Yes the injury to Crochet means Sox would look bad firing RR for having a bad day Thursday.

[greg775]

Eloy's injury didn't help either. So did not getting a home game where our bashers could bash.

[Buehrle5687]

I don't think yesterday's loss is on Ricky, but plenty of others were.  We need a new manager.  The Sox are gonna be a powerhouse for the next 5 years, and we can't have this guy kneecapping the team. 

When you have the MVP on your squad, you lock him into the 3 hole.  There are 8 year olds on MLB The Show that can construct a better lineup than Ricky.  This was a season long issue, and it seems like people have just accepted it.  Imagine OAK getting through the 1st without facing Abreu.

BP mismanagement was glaringly obvious that series vs CLE.

This team began to gel because they were dominating.  They were dominating because they're immensely talented players, not because Ricky is a "great clubhouse guy".

[South Side Hit Men]

Good God, the staff was running on fumes entering game 3 of a potential 22 game playoff schedule, and after cutting the vast majority (102 games) off of the regular “season” schedule.

The Sox will need enough innings to get through 100 more games just to reach a round one game three next year.

A few existing pitchers will have innings caps. The FO is going to need to build or add a lot more pitching depth to attempt to compete for a World Series.

Pitcher / Previous Full Season Professional Innings Pitched (year / level)

Cease 141 (2019 AAA/ML)

Dunning 144 (2017 A)

Rodon 120 (2018 Mostly ML)

Stiever 145 (2019 A)

Kopech 140 (2018 mostly AAA)

Crotchet 6 (2020 ML)

[Balta1701]

33 minutes ago, Rowand44 said:

Right but that means Dane shouldn't have started to begin with.  That said in Ricky's defense(I know) and as you said, everything was fucked after the Crochet injury anyways.

They were hoping that Dane could give them a couple innings. Unfortunately, they got a couple people on and went to their pre-arranged plan B - pull him if 2 people get on.

[southsider2k5]

 

[gusguyman]

I am too lazy too think up a new defense of RR but I posted this in another thread - I liked the plan they rolled with today. 

13 hours ago, gusguyman said:

1) Dunning - I don't agree that you don't start Dunning at all. The bullpen looked gassed down the stretch, and in hindsight, considering how young it is, the question of whether they will crack under playoff pressure should have been a much bigger storyline. Asking 5 or 6 out of 7 guys to all bring their A game is tough. If you can steal one time through the order with Dunning, that is huge, because now  you can skip whatever RP comes out and looks shaky.

As for Dunning, he has proven he has the ability to get you 3-4 innings of shutout ball, but he has also proven he has the ability to give up the game in the first inning. You tell him straight up that he's out as soon as he hits his first jam, and you take whatever he gives you. Unfortunately it wasn't much, but the aggression in going to Crochet was perfect. Now you are back to the bullpen day anyway, no harm done, and the upside was worth the risk.

This is the exact sort of aggressive, creative pitching strategy that many of us have criticized the sox for not trying.

 

[Harry Chappas]

3 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

The Big Hurt said warming a guy up the second Dunning gave up 1 hit did two very bad things. It ruined Dunning's confidence, and it hurt the rest of the team's confidence. If the plan is to use 8 or 9 guys, chances are there are going to be a couple, if not more, that don't have it that day. You can't be afraid of 1 run in the first inning.

If the plan was to use Crochet for a few innings early, why didn't they start him? 

I get not starting himbecause it forces Melvin's hand on the L/R matchups.  My issue was Dunning was throwing strikes and they were in too big of a hurry to pull him to get to their plan on managing the rest of he game. 

[Quin]

7 minutes ago, Harry Chappas said:

I get not starting himbecause it forces Melvin's hand on the L/R matchups.  My issue was Dunning was throwing strikes and they were in too big of a hurry to pull him to get to their plan on managing the rest of he game. 

I'm right here.

For once, Ricky wanted to galaxy brain manage a game instead of trust his gut.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 hour ago, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said:

Foster should have come into the game after Crochet got hurt. Like you said, he still might have been able to throw strikes but at least there wasn’t anyone on base at that point. But it’s all water under the bridge now.

Look everybody has their way in their head as to who should have pitched when. There is no going back to see if your way would ve been better.

I can tell by how it unfolded what the game plan was so here goes.

Open with Dunning. Get a quick feel for how he's commanding his pitches. Can he get their lefties out ? The 1st 5 hitters should tell you this since 3 of them were lefties. Dunning did not pass the test however he did serve a purpose since he's righty. All the Lefties in Oaklands lineup would now have to face the Sox best lefty relievers for as long as they could go.

Enter Crochet . The plan was now that Oakland doesn't hit lefties as well as righties was to make them face lefties as long as possible and leave Crochet in as long as he could go. That's probably 2 inning maybe a little longer . Unfortunately he got hurt . SO you still want them to face a lefty for another 2 innings. That meant either Bummer Fry or Rodon. They chose Bummer because he is their best lefty by far. The plan was working but the injury to Crochet changed things drastically. He could only go 2 batters ,both K's, 1 to finish the 1st inning and 1 to start the 2nd.

Enter Bummer. It's only the 2nd inning and there's only 1 out and the Sox are on their 3rd pitcher. Can Bummer go 2 innings ? After getting 2 ground outs to finish the 2nd he starts the 3rd with a walk, a K ,and a single and appears to be tired. Well things are unraveling a bit. Your 2 best lefties can only give you 1.2 innings so its bring in Rodon or Fry with 2 men on or go to your most reliable RH's now. RR chooses RH Heuer. Sound decision

Enter Heuer . Pinder PH for Lamb and singles. Bases loaded 1 out but Heuer works his way out of it with a popup and a K. That worked out well but pretty stressful work for Heuer. Bottom of the 4th Heuer starts with a GO, BB, K ,2 outs ,1 on. Maybe Heuer can give you those good 2 innings we need ? We're still trying to make up innings from the Crochet injury. Nope. Sean Murphy hits a HR cutting the lead to 3-2. Heuer is out.

Enter Rodon. Still looking for the 3rd out. Just get 1 out Rodon . Bases are empty 2 outs. Nope. Walk , double, IBB . Well that IBB was interesting. Load the bases or have Rodon actually face another hitter. 3 batter rule. Hard call. Wasn't a wrong call , bad results followed but who thinks Foster is going to walk 2 runs in ?  A single accomplishes the same thing , a double clears the bases and a HR would've sucked so yes it was bad to give up the lead but could've ended worse . Rodon's outing was terrible. His playoff ERA is infinity ( no lie).

Enter Matt Foster. Surely the usually reliable Foster is more likely to get the out than Rodon against the RH Canha. Nope. Walks in the tying run.  Then walks the LH Olson and A's lead 4-3. 3 pitchers, 6 batters 1 HR, 4 walks , and no one could get the last out,. Foster finally gets a Fly out to end that disaster of an inning. End of the 4th inning. Sox have used 6 pitchers , walked 6 guys, gave away the lead and they still haven't made up for the Crochet injury.

The offense ties the game with a clutch 2 out hit from Mazara after a single and SB from Moncada. That's the 2nd hit and 2nd RBI for Mazara.

Enter Marshall for the bottom of the 5th. Starts by getting 2 outs, a lineout and swinging K. Then a walk. Now La Stella is up . On an 0-1 count LaStella swings and misses a pitch. Wait what's this Catchers interference and we all start getting angry at Grandal. But wait ,whats this I find later thanks to a helpful hint from Fathom in the game thread ? LaStella actually has had more than his fair share of Catchers Interference calls. In June 2018 a tweet from Jesse Rogers says LaStella has reached base 6 times through catchers interference. How many he's had since then I don't know but he must stand as far back in the box as the ump allows  so maybe Grandal isn't totally at fault here. Is this something that showed up in pregame reports ? Still seems pretty random but it's sort of a trend when 1 guy gets that many.

So 2 on ,still 2 outs. Another walk now bases loaded without the benefit of a hit. Pinder singles in 2 . Another failure to close out the inning. Canha lines out to RF to end the inning. 2 runs, 1 ER, 1 hit ,2 walks, an error. In the 4th and 5th the A's score 6 runs on a total of 3 hits ,7 walks, a catchers interference. Marshall pitches the 6th inning with no runs. We finally get 2 innings from a guy but he ends up the Loser . Not the kind of 2 innings you wanted.

While you get 1 scoreless inning apiece from Cordero and Colome . The Sox mount some rallies but could never get any key hits when they were behind  in the 7th-9th. Season over.

I did this as a learning tool so some could understand the thought processes behind some of the pitching moves. You can all question the thought process or be angry with the results but I don't see anything glaringly bad in how the pen was handled. Turns out it was just a bunch of strange stuff happening to our young pitchers. Whether that was a combination of youth in pressure situations along with the House of Horrors we all have come to expect who knows ? Lots of walks 2 key injuries a catchers interference and no clutch hitting or pitching  and actually lucky we only lost by 2. Players didn't perform . Sox normally don't do a lot of BP games and certainly not in the playoffs . In the bottom of the 4th when Laureano K'd  the Sox win probability was 72.4 %  so I don't really have to question a lot of BP decisions until after that. The plan was working until the injury to Crochet . That's just a fact and it altered the plan significantly.

 

 

 

 

 

[Tomtom]

10 hours ago, Dominikk85 said:

The biggest issue except for everyone walking guys was crochet getting hurt. The sox would have needed two innings out of crochet. 

Dunning struggled the last weeks already and thus his leash was always going to be short.

That being said I would have preferred crochet opening for dunning but I can also understand the thinking of hoping for 2-3 innings out of dunning.

As it turned out, Crochet was not hurt.  RR took him out because his velocity was down a couple of MPH.  I say if He said he was OK, I'd let him keep going.  He struck out the only two batters he faced, so the lower velocity wasn't hurting him.  I would have like to see Crochet fight to stay in the game.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

2 minutes ago, Tomtom said:

As it turned out, Crochet was not hurt.  RR took him out because his velocity was down a couple of MPH.  I say if He said he was OK, I'd let him keep going.  He struck out the only two batters he faced, so the lower velocity wasn't hurting him.  I would have like to see Crochet fight to stay in the game.

If he wasn't hurt then why did we get an in game report saying he had a forearm strain ? Have you seen reports that refute the reports we got ? You don't risk a kids future just because you are in a playoff game. The kids a gamer. He pitched in the past with a broken jaw. The Sox had seen Kopechs velocity drop and he ended up needing TJ surgery.

[SonofaRoache]

4 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

It all doesn't matter much in the long run because if they only had 2 starters they trust for more than one or two baserunners, they were bowing out next round for sure.

I disagree. If we were up 2 to 0 on Houston or tied 1 to 1, we let Dunning pitch through his struggles. This was a do or die game with 3 off days before the next round. So Ricky didn't care about blowing through the bullpen.