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Dominikk85

Sox pitching development

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The sox recently invested into analytics on the hitting side by signing guys like Johanson and lisle but I think the pitching development was really subpar.

The sox had lots of pitching prospects in the top100 the last 4 years and a lot of them busted or got hurt and the Sox play 2020 with only 2 reliable starters.

Guys like Rey lo, cease did not really develope and others like fulmer and Hansen failed completely.

Even giolito did stagnate before he made a change on his own.

What needs to happen that the sox pitching development gets up to speed? Should they hire a driveline guy and give him full control?

Edited by Dominikk85
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Snag someone from cleveland and give them a fat contract 

seriously, those guys are amazing (yeah yeah bieber got shelled, but they still were remarkable)

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This was always going to be a developmental year for Cease. Never should’ve been the #3, he’s a 5 on a good rotation. I fully expect him to bounce back next year with the experience he gained this year. 

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2 minutes ago, Jerksticks said:

Well they also created Foster, Fry, Heuer and Bummer out of nothing.  

this  is exactly right. It's more complicated than people are making it out to be, and I think it is relative to the type of pitchers they targeted. 

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1 hour ago, bmags said:

this  is exactly right. It's more complicated than people are making it out to be, and I think it is relative to the type of pitchers they targeted. 

Especially if your standard is for all pitchers drafted to succeed at a high level, and not suffer major injuries.

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1 hour ago, Jerksticks said:

Well they also created Foster, Fry, Heuer and Bummer out of nothing.  

I'll give you Foster and Fry.  Even Bummer to a certain extent, but they started with something far above nothing with Heuer.

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8 hours ago, RG23SoxFan said:

I'll give you Foster and Fry.  Even Bummer to a certain extent, but they started with something far above nothing with Heuer.

Eh. Turning someone not drafted in the first round into a dominating force at any position is a massive home run for a player development staff. 
 

 

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Yeah they have been pretty good with relievers. With Starters they weren't that bad either as dunning, cease, kopech and reylo at least reach the majors.

Some big failures too but maybe the problem is more the development at the mlb level where they didn't make that last step or got hurt.

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At the risk of getting real old man (41), the way pitching is trending is penny short, pound foolish. Too much leverage on every pitch, too many sessions, too many short sessions, too many specialized roles. They're ruining these kid's arms. If it continues to trend this way, you're going to have a lot of scenarios like the NFL has with running backs where you hope to get a couple really good years out of them before they're ruined. Football can't help it because the human body can't keep up with PEDs. Each impact is too great. Baseball is doing it by choice because they're not thinking long term. 

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10 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

At the risk of getting real old man (41), the way pitching is trending is penny short, pound foolish. Too much leverage on every pitch, too many sessions, too many short sessions, too many specialized roles. They're ruining these kid's arms. If it continues to trend this way, you're going to have a lot of scenarios like the NFL has with running backs where you hope to get a couple really good years out of them before they're ruined. Football can't help it because the human body can't keep up with PEDs. Each impact is too great. Baseball is doing it by choice because they're not thinking long term. 

 It seems like the hard throwing pitcher has a shorter career.  Kids in the minors get shocked when they face major league hitters who can hit your 98 heater.  We may never see a 300 game winner again.

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On 10/2/2020 at 6:01 AM, Joshua Strong said:

This was always going to be a developmental year for Cease. Never should’ve been the #3, he’s a 5 on a good rotation. I fully expect him to bounce back next year with the experience he gained this year. 

Fans don't seem to have patience when it comes to MLB.   It's not like the NFL or NBA where a drafted player can make an immediate impact.

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Real simple! We need a NEW manager and complete new coaching staff because Don Cooper is worthless. I am tired of Steve Stone telling us every game when things go bad what is wrong with the our pitchers. It's quite obvious that clueless Don Cooper and Ricky RenterLoser dont see it or know how to change or fix it, with our pitchers who need some tweaks. 

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On 10/3/2020 at 2:02 PM, ejm3 said:

Real simple! We need a NEW manager and complete new coaching staff because Don Cooper is worthless. I am tired of Steve Stone telling us every game when things go bad what is wrong with the our pitchers. It's quite obvious that clueless Don Cooper and Ricky RenterLoser dont see it or know how to change or fix it, with our pitchers who need some tweaks. 

That's a new level of analysis.

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Was looking at Bob Gibson’s stats today and his first two years were pretty bad and he started to turn it on in years three. Sox need another vet pitcher So the young guys have a few years to develop. Get another vet pitcher on a three year Contract.

 

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On 10/3/2020 at 11:40 AM, kitekrazy said:

Fans don't seem to have patience when it comes to MLB.   It's not like the NFL or NBA where a drafted player can make an immediate impact.

rookies make big impacts every year.

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14 hours ago, runtheballdown said:

Was looking at Bob Gibson’s stats today and his first two years were pretty bad and he started to turn it on in years three. Sox need another vet pitcher So the young guys have a few years to develop. Get another vet pitcher on a three year Contract.

 

You can find so many great pitchers who couldn't figure it out in the 1st few years. I always said how fast the young pitching develop would be the key to how the rebuild shakes out. The problem is and always will be if you have greatness in you how long does it take to appear? Same can be said even if you have a few good years. How long will it take ? Will injuries slow you down? Will they ruin you ?

Look at Bassitt. He's 29 now and while always showing potential much like Rodon, injuries have been his curse. Unlike Rodon he always had nice peripherals . But there have been great pitchers who also struggled with command like Randy Johnson or Sandy Koufax.

Koufax, in his MLB debut ,got in a jam and ended up striking Bobby Thomson on a fastball to end the threat. He said it was "probably the worst thing that could have happened to me," leading, as it did, to five seasons spent "trying to get out of trouble by throwing harder and harder and harder."Wiki

It's so much more rare that young pitchers can excel immediately. The problem was the pitching ,theoretically, should have been here in the earlier years of the rebuild to let them take their knocks such as Giolito and Lopez. Giolito worked out great. Lopez may never find it. After that it was too many injuries leading to the young pitchers falling behind the young hitters . That's why I always said get as MLB quality starters as you can find in FA and trades. Everyone thought just Wheeler last year would have been fine but as we found out it wasn't. Even with the great year Keuchel had it wasn't enough. An injury to just 1 of your top pitchers can ruin a season.

Now we can only hope Jerry has it in him to splurge a little on starting pitching. This is whats needed, not waiting and waiting to see if pitchers have greatness or even a few years of peak performance that coincides with the hitters.

You can't fall in love with pitching prospects when you need guys who can go 6 innings right now. If you look too far ahead all the young guys on the team right now get more and more expensive while you are waiting for pitchers to develop or to lead the next great phase of the rebuild. I'd like to be able to win a Championship in the next few years or we may never get to the proposed 5+ years of making the playoffs.

Edited by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

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I'm not writing of Lopez either. He had a bad year but it was also interrupted by injuries so maybe if he is healthy he can make a step forward. 

He has to earn it though at this point, not like in rebuild years when there is time to learn on the job. 

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15 hours ago, oldsox said:

That's a new level of analysis.

You can be sarcastic all you want, but I thought the purpose of this forum was to express our opinions. The fact is, whether this is an old ongoing "analysis", it still remains the same that Renteria and Cooper both did a horrible job with their choices on the what pitchers to use and when to pull them....as it has been pointed out on this forum numerous times. Again the question that was raised that I replied to was, What needs to happen that the sox pitching development gets up to speed?  I think I answered it correctly. lol

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13 minutes ago, ejm3 said:

You can be sarcastic all you want, but I thought the purpose of this forum was to express our opinions. The fact is, whether this is an old ongoing "analysis", it still remains the same that Renteria and Cooper both did a horrible job with their choices on the what pitchers to use and when to pull them....as it has been pointed out on this forum numerous times. Again the question that was raised that I replied to was, What needs to happen that the sox pitching development gets up to speed?  I think I answered it correctly. lol

For the record, you are not the only one with that right.  When you post, people are free to respond to it.

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4 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

For the record, you are not the only one with that right.  When you post, people are free to respond to it.

This is why I don't post anymore. I preferred the early 2000s dictatorship SoxTalk forums.

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19 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

For the record, you are not the only one with that right.  When you post, people are free to respond to it.

I totally understand and respect that. However when I look at most posts here on this board and the responses,  it seems when someone disagrees with a post they usually reply with a their reason. You didn't reply to my statement with a specific comment of substance...you just posted some lame sarcastic comment with no explanation. If you would have replied with a mature comeback I wouldn't have stated what I said. The fact is if you or anyone else here doesn't agree with me, that is fine and I can totally respect and take that. However don't reply to someone's statement on here with some lame comment looking to be funny, which you werent. Can you imagine every time you posted something here, others simply replied with some nonsense sarcastic comment and no substance like you. lol

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1 minute ago, ejm3 said:

I totally understand and respect that. However when I look at most posts here on this board and the responses,  it seems when someone disagrees with a post they usually reply with a their reason. You didn't reply to my statement with a specific comment of substance...you just posted some lame sarcastic comment with no explanation. If you would have replied with a mature comeback I wouldn't have stated what I said. The fact is if you or anyone else here doesn't agree with me, that is fine and I can totally respect and take that. However don't reply to someone's statement on here with some lame comment looking to be funny, which you werent. Can you imagine every time you posted something here, others simply replied with some nonsense sarcastic comment and no substance like you. lol

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