Mazara and Right Field Thread

[The Hawk]

11 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

And yet he posted a 94 wRC+ which means he was a below average hitter.  I don’t know what to tell you other than Mazara has never been good.

I say that his power numbers being as good as they were 20 HRs and 75 RBIs along with a .275 average means something different to me than a 94 wRC means to you. His power numbers represent the top 3rd of all American League right fielders do they not? You have your "stats" and I have mine in other words. This is the same as occurs in every different GM and Manager's mind. What are they looking at in a player? When Hahn made this trade, he saw a very young veteran player(26 years old) who he thought had an upside. Hahn will have to rethink that decision based on Mazara getting sick and having a miserable year. I thought that Hahn made a good baseball decision when he made it. You think he screwed up. We will see how it plays out going forward

[The Hawk]

1 hour ago, daggins said:

I just don't want to see the Sox go down the path they've gone before with guys like Beckham and Viciedo, starting a player long after it's become obvious he isn't a starting-caliber player. If the Sox want to be taken seriously as competitors, they can't keep hoping and praying that some guy with 2000 MLB PA is suddenly going to figure it all out. 

Did you think that a guy who averaged 20 home runs and 75 RBIs and hitting over .270 with four major league seasons under his belt at 26 years old is a bum? Very few players in the history of baseball have done that well in their baseball careers by the age of 26. There are minor league guys all around baseball who never made it to one game in the major leagues by age 25 years old. 

   I know this. If Mazara just returns to his average production numbers that occurred in his first four seasons, he will start for at least two thirds of major league teams over the next 5 years. Thinking that he is some kind of baseball bust based on a silly season like he just had really isn't good logic.

[Chicago White Sox]

2 minutes ago, The Hawk said:

Did you think that a guy who averaged 20 home runs and 75 RBIs and hitting over .270 with four major league seasons under his belt at 26 years old is a bum? Very few players in the history of baseball have done that well in their baseball careers by the age of 26. There are minor league guys all around baseball who never made it to one game in the major leagues by age 25 years old. 

   I know this. If Mazara just returns to his average production numbers that occurred in his first four seasons, he will start for at least two thirds of major league teams over the next 5 years. Thinking that he is some kind of baseball bust based on a silly season like he just had really isn't good logic.

Nomar Mazara from 2016 to 2019 is a slightly above replacement level player.  20 HRs with poor OBP and below average defense is simply not that valuable for a RF.  And I have no idea why you think he’d start for 2/3 of teams based on those completely ordinary numbers.  If he was as good as you make him out to be he would have gone for a lot more than Steele Walker.

[The Hawk]

7 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Nomar Mazara from 2016 to 2019 is a slightly above replacement level player.  20 HRs with poor OBP and below average defense is simply not that valuable for a RF.  And I have no idea why you think he’d start for 2/3 of teams based on those completely ordinary numbers.  If he was as good as you make him out to be he would have gone for a lot more than Steele Walker.

If you want a treat, go take a look at the statistics of the American league starting right fielders for the last four years. It is pathetic over-all. YOu may think that 20HR, 75RBI, and .275 BA is bad but it really is in the top 3rd of Al right fielders. Think about it. Who are the excellent AL right fielders right now? Hell, last year, the best one went to the Dodgers in Mookie Betts. It really is  position which is a very weak one. And right field, my friend, is not a position that you can just plug anybody into. The guy has got to have some speed. He has to have a strong throwing arm. And he plays in what historically been considered a power position.

 What is also funny is your statement that I somehow think that he is "as good as you make him out to be".  All I have said is that he is an average major league right fielder. That is all. But clearly, there are a bunch of you guys who view him differently. That's okay but your opinion isn't supported with facts. He has been an average four year power hitting right fielder and is still 26 years old

[southsider2k5]

53 minutes ago, The Hawk said:

If you want a treat, go take a look at the statistics of the American league starting right fielders for the last four years. It is pathetic over-all. YOu may think that 20HR, 75RBI, and .275 BA is bad but it really is in the top 3rd of Al right fielders. Think about it. Who are the excellent AL right fielders right now? Hell, last year, the best one went to the Dodgers in Mookie Betts. It really is  position which is a very weak one. And right field, my friend, is not a position that you can just plug anybody into. The guy has got to have some speed. He has to have a strong throwing arm. And he plays in what historically been considered a power position.

 What is also funny is your statement that I somehow think that he is "as good as you make him out to be".  All I have said is that he is an average major league right fielder. That is all. But clearly, there are a bunch of you guys who view him differently. That's okay but your opinion isn't supported with facts. He has been an average four year power hitting right fielder and is still 26 years old

Maybe you should take a look at the stats.  If you run a fangraphs on RF for 2017 to 2020 Nomar Mazara doesn't rank in the top 50.  In fact he ranked 53rd.  Even if you narrow to oWAR only, he still isn't in the top 50.  Hell Daniel Palka ranks ahead of him at #77, as does Charlie Tilson at #87, and Ryan Cordell at #100.  In fact Nomar Mazara comes in 2nd to last at 112 of 113 offensively during that time frame.  Even if you rerun it without his disaster of a 2020, Mazara comes in at 58 of 113.

 

EDIT:  Even if you want to look at the traditional stats, Marara has never hit .275.  .266 is his career high.  He has carried and OBP in the .320 range.  He's hitting a homer about every 30 PAs, so it isn't even like he has been selling out for the long ball or something.  He is a decidedly mediorce player with a ton of potential the Sox were hoping would break out.  It didn't happen, and he isn't getting an arbitration offer.  You can bookmark this post if you like even.

[Two-Gun Pete]

1 hour ago, The Hawk said:

 

     I told you. I do not care a whit about defensive stats for outfielders. If you want to give them credence go for it. To begin with, stats do not even begin to be able to measure the ground which an outfielder has to cover typically, the kind of shifts that his team employs, the ability of his center fielder, etc. This takes watching the player which in this case I do a lot of.  With infielders it is different. There, defensive stats do matter but even there you need to take some of them with a grain of salt based on the way the team positions its defensive players. 

     In his four previous years in baseball, Mazara was beyond any doubt a decent average major league right fielder all around. 

Ok. I understand your view. But your view is either misinformed, or ill-informed. With respect to the bolded, there are two readily available defensive metrics that take into account what you are complaining about:

Inside Edge Fielding Stats Here, they attempt to classify defensive plays as "Routine," "Likely," "Even," "Unlikely," "Remote," and "Impossible."

Range Runs, which measures how many balls an outfielder gets to.

Needless to say, Mazara has been below average on both measures. These metrics directly measure an OFer's range/ability to get to balls.

 

With respect to the underlined, WAR directly measures whether or not a player has been average or not at his position. Here again, the metric shows that Mazara has been a below average player.

That aside, no team would trade away an average starting RFer for Walker.

Edited October 25, 2020 by Two-Gun Pete

[Chicago White Sox]

9 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Maybe you should take a look at the stats.  If you run a fangraphs on RF for 2017 to 2020 Nomar Mazara doesn't rank in the top 50.  In fact he ranked 53rd.  Even if you narrow to oWAR only, he still isn't in the top 50.  Hell Daniel Palka ranks ahead of him at #77, as does Charlie Tilson at #87, and Ryan Cordell at #100.  In fact Nomar Mazara comes in 2nd to last at 112 of 113 offensively during that time frame.  Even if you rerun it without his disaster of a 2020, Mazara comes in at 58 of 113.

 

EDIT:  Even if you want to look at the traditional stats, Marara has never hit .275.  .266 is his career high.  He has carried and OBP in the .320 range.  He's hitting a homer about every 30 PAs, so it isn't even like he has been selling out for the long ball or something.  He is a decidedly mediorce player with a ton of potential the Sox were hoping would break out.  It didn't happen, and he isn't getting an arbitration offer.  You can bookmark this post if you like even.

Well said!

[Sleepy Harold]

STOP 👏 TALKING 👏 ABOUT 👏 NOMAR 👏 MAZARA 👏 IN 👏 THE 👏 TREVOR 👏 BAUER 👏 UPDATE 👏 THREAD 👏. Factoring in the eye test, he's still below average. Let's move on, yes? 

Edited October 25, 2020 by Sleepy Harold

[The Hawk]

2 hours ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Ok. I understand your view. But your view is either misinformed, or ill-informed. With respect to the bolded, there are two readily available defensive metrics that take into account what you are complaining about:

Inside Edge Fielding Stats Here, they attempt to classify defensive plays as "Routine," "Likely," "Even," "Unlikely," "Remote," and "Impossible."

Range Runs, which measures how many balls an outfielder gets to.

Needless to say, Mazara has been below average on both measures. These metrics directly measure an OFer's range/ability to get to balls.

 

With respect to the underlined, WAR directly measures whether or not a player has been average or not at his position. Here again, the metric shows that Mazara has been a below average player.

That aside, no team would trade away an average starting RFer for Walker.

     No sense arguing about this any more. There is no one stat that directly measures a players ability. Not when the measurements themselves are heavily subjective especially . As for "Range Runs", that one really makes me laugh. How is that stat adjusted when a outfield goes into a no doubles set and allows anything off the bat to fall to the ground in front of them? How about when a outfielder goes balls out for a ball and dives and catches it versus the next inning when the same guy misses his dive and the ball goes to the wall for a triple instead of a single? My point is that a lot of stats are better than others and when you are talking about outfield play, they are mostly useless.

[Balta1701]

2 minutes ago, The Hawk said:

     No sense arguing about this any more. There is no one stat that directly measures a players ability. Not when the measurements themselves are heavily subjective especially . As for "Range Runs", that one really makes me laugh. How is that stat adjusted when a outfield goes into a no doubles set and allows anything off the bat to fall to the ground in front of them? How about when a outfielder goes balls out for a ball and dives and catches it versus the next inning when the same guy misses his dive and the ball goes to the wall for a triple instead of a single? My point is that a lot of stats are better than others and when you are talking about outfield play, they are mostly useless.

"I don't want to take any time to learn about them and therefore they must all be useless."

[The Hawk]

2 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

Maybe you should take a look at the stats.  If you run a fangraphs on RF for 2017 to 2020 Nomar Mazara doesn't rank in the top 50.  In fact he ranked 53rd.  Even if you narrow to oWAR only, he still isn't in the top 50.  Hell Daniel Palka ranks ahead of him at #77, as does Charlie Tilson at #87, and Ryan Cordell at #100.  In fact Nomar Mazara comes in 2nd to last at 112 of 113 offensively during that time frame.  Even if you rerun it without his disaster of a 2020, Mazara comes in at 58 of 113.

 

EDIT:  Even if you want to look at the traditional stats, Marara has never hit .275.  .266 is his career high.  He has carried and OBP in the .320 range.  He's hitting a homer about every 30 PAs, so it isn't even like he has been selling out for the long ball or something.  He is a decidedly mediorce player with a ton of potential the Sox were hoping would break out.  It didn't happen, and he isn't getting an arbitration offer.  You can bookmark this post if you like even.

 I was wrong about his batting average. He averaged about .265 not .275. But I was right about his power numbers being in the top 3rd in the AL. I did say the American League also BTW and the 4 year period was 2016-2019 thank you very much.  There were only 7-8 Al right fielders with better home runs and RBIs than his and he still was in the top 3rd of batting average. You are really embarrassing yourself with your opine about Palka, Tilson and Cordell having better numbers.  If you want to focus on fangraphs as your Bible for baseball, pray away, brother:) 

[southsider2k5]

8 minutes ago, The Hawk said:

     No sense arguing about this any more. There is no one stat that directly measures a players ability. Not when the measurements themselves are heavily subjective especially . As for "Range Runs", that one really makes me laugh. How is that stat adjusted when a outfield goes into a no doubles set and allows anything off the bat to fall to the ground in front of them? How about when a outfielder goes balls out for a ball and dives and catches it versus the next inning when the same guy misses his dive and the ball goes to the wall for a triple instead of a single? My point is that a lot of stats are better than others and when you are talking about outfield play, they are mostly useless.

What if I told you those things were factored in, and over the course of a season single event anomalies equalize so that  measure can be taken that which gives a much clearer view than an eye test which is neither comprehensive nor unbiased.

[The Hawk]

10 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

"I don't want to take any time to learn about them and therefore they must all be useless."

Anyone can take stats and massage them any way that they want to. Some guys on TV have made a career of that for themselves. More power to them. Tell me something. Do you actually think that a major league manager or general manager makes a decision on who starts in right field for him based on Range Runs and something called Inside Edge Fielding Stats? or does the guy take a look at his routes to the ball and his reaction off of the bat? And does the same guy want to know if he can field a ball down the right field line and throw a one-hop strike to 2nd base? How about being able to hold the runner at second base on an average fly ball to right? I will guarantee you guys this, No one in major league baseball makes day time decisions on who does or doesn't play right field based on the stats that you brought up. Most of these kind of things if used at all are used in salary arbitration and to some limited extent in trade talks.

  

[southsider2k5]

14 minutes ago, The Hawk said:

 I was wrong about his batting average. He averaged about .265 not .275. But I was right about his power numbers being in the top 3rd in the AL. I did say the American League also BTW and the 4 year period was 2016-2019 thank you very much.  There were only 7-8 Al right fielders with better home runs and RBIs than his and he still was in the top 3rd of batting average. You are really embarrassing yourself with your opine about Palka, Tilson and Cordell having better numbers.  If you want to focus on fangraphs as your Bible for baseball, pray away, brother:) 

Do you ever look up what you are talking about? From 2016 to 19, Mazara ranked 20th in HRs by a RF. He ranked 29th in BA. He ranked 39th in OBP.

Even cherry picking the best portion of his career, and his best stats,he is a replacement level RF. He is a decidedly mediocre player.

Your argument is faulty. Nothing of what you thought is actually true. 

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, The Hawk said:

Anyone can take stats and massage them any way that they want to. Some guys on TV have made a career of that for themselves. More power to them. Tell me something. Do you actually think that a major league manager or general manager makes a decision on who starts in right field for him based on Range Runs and something called Inside Edge Fielding Stats? or does the guy take a look at his routes to the ball and his reaction off of the bat? And does the same guy want to know if he can field a ball down the right field line and throw a one-hop strike to 2nd base? How about being able to hold the runner at second base on an average fly ball to right? I will guarantee you guys this, No one in major league baseball makes day time decisions on who does or doesn't play right field based on the stats that you brought up. Most of these kind of things if used at all are used in salary arbitration and to some limited extent in trade talks.

  

They sure as hell aren't just looking at batting average and home runs.

[Balta1701]

2 minutes ago, The Hawk said:

Anyone can take stats and massage them any way that they want to. Some guys on TV have made a career of that for themselves. More power to them. Tell me something. Do you actually think that a major league manager or general manager makes a decision on who starts in right field for him based on Range Runs and something called Inside Edge Fielding Stats? or does the guy take a look at his routes to the ball and his reaction off of the bat? And does the same guy want to know if he can field a ball down the right field line and throw a one-hop strike to 2nd base? How about being able to hold the runner at second base on an average fly ball to right? I will guarantee you guys this, No one in major league baseball makes day time decisions on who does or doesn't play right field based on the stats that you brought up. Most of these kind of things if used at all are used in salary arbitration and to some limited extent in trade talks.

  

We're watching the Tampa Bay Rays right now with maybe the greatest coaching performance I have ever seen, ever, do exactly what you're saying no one would ever do.

[Chicago White Sox]

7 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

They sure as hell aren't just looking at batting average and home runs.

And if they were, who in the word actually thinks a .265 BA with 20 HRs to be that good?

[The Hawk]

12 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

What if I told you those things were factored in, and over the course of a season single event anomalies equalize so that  measure can be taken that which gives a much clearer view than an eye test which is neither comprehensive nor unbiased.

Who enters the information into the computer regarding defensive set,  The shift employed, who the center fielder is. Did the ball hit off the side wall of the box seats. Etc. Etc. And who rates the difficulty of the catch to be made by the right fielder?  Also when the center fielder calls for a 50-50 ball or 40-60 or 30-70 ball and waves off the right fielder, does the right fielder get gigged for it?

  Who in baseball right now is responsible for providing the "raw data" that spits out this Inside Edge Fielding Stats and Range Factor? Is it the same kind of weinies who enter all of the subjective data into the PFF data base for the NFL, namely some geeks in Great Britain paid for looking at game films and rating the blocking of Offensive linemen the tackling of defensive line backers, the pass coverage of corners and safeties, etc? That system sucks BTW and is done by people who never played American football a day in their entire life:)

[The Hawk]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

Do you ever look up what you are talking about? From 2016 to 19, Mazara ranked 20th in HRs by a RF. He ranked 29th in BA. He ranked 39th in OBP.

Even cherry picking the best portion of his career, and his best stats,he is a replacement level RF. He is a decidedly mediocre player.

Your argument is faulty. Nothing of what you thought is actually true. 

You're wrong about his home-runs. Once again, I said the American league. I quickly looked up the home run stats for years 2016-2019 and Mazara was listed in the top 50 on the entire American league for years 2016-2018 and in the top 65 or so in 2019. He also was listed as the 9th -12th leading home run hitting right fielder among every player who even played right field for a game for the same period of time.

Edited October 26, 2020 by The Hawk

[Chicago White Sox]

2 minutes ago, The Hawk said:

Who enters the information into the computer regarding defensive set,  The shift employed, who the center fielder is. Did the ball hit off the side wall of the box seats. Etc. Etc. And who rates the difficulty of the catch to be made by the right fielder?  Also when the center fielder calls for a 50-50 ball or 40-60 or 30-70 ball and waves off the right fielder, does the right fielder get gigged for it?

  Who in baseball right now is responsible for providing the "raw data" that spits out this Inside Edge Fielding Stats and Range Factor? Is it the same kind of weinies who enter all of the subjective data into the PFF data base for the NFL, namely some geeks in Great Britain paid for looking at game films and rating the blocking of Offensive linemen the tackling of defensive line backers, the pass coverage of corners and safeties, etc? That system sucks BTW and is done by people who never played American football a day in their entire life:)

Meatball status confirmed - I think we can all move on here and refocus our thoughts on Bauer again.

[southsider2k5]

12 minutes ago, The Hawk said:

You're wrong about his home-runs. Once again, I said the American league. 

You are moving the goalposts over and over again,  and have been proven wrong with every single claim here. At this point get off your butt and actually show your work. I am bored with proving you wrong, while you have zero evidence of anything you say.

[southsider2k5]

18 minutes ago, The Hawk said:

Who enters the information into the computer regarding defensive set,  The shift employed, who the center fielder is. Did the ball hit off the side wall of the box seats. Etc. Etc. And who rates the difficulty of the catch to be made by the right fielder?  Also when the center fielder calls for a 50-50 ball or 40-60 or 30-70 ball and waves off the right fielder, does the right fielder get gigged for it?

  Who in baseball right now is responsible for providing the "raw data" that spits out this Inside Edge Fielding Stats and Range Factor? Is it the same kind of weinies who enter all of the subjective data into the PFF data base for the NFL, namely some geeks in Great Britain paid for looking at game films and rating the blocking of Offensive linemen the tackling of defensive line backers, the pass coverage of corners and safeties, etc? That system sucks BTW and is done by people who never played American football a day in their entire life:)

You realize that for every single made up scenario,  you can do the same thing for a batting average right?  Fluke hits happen,  why do you trust batting average?  It's too bad you can only handle the most simple of numbers.

[Jerksticks]

I always love when someone tells a person that batting average is an antiquated way of measuring a hitter.  
 

like, cmon man, that horse doesn’t need any more beating.  2006 called and said “great point!”

[The Hawk]

42 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

You realize that for every single made up scenario,  you can do the same thing for a batting average right?  Fluke hits happen,  why do you trust batting average?  It's too bad you can only handle the most simple of numbers.

I guess that you can't answer my simple question. I asked who enters this data for range factor and the "Inside Edge" stuff? As for as my not being able to "handle" these "stats", that's pretty funny since I had a statistics emphasis in graduate school. I can "handle" statistics just peachy, my friend. I also can handle the fact that many(not all) of these advanced stats aren't worth a crap as a bottom line. Also, tell me when they are going to give a huge trophy for best Range Factor or "Inside Edge" stuff like they do for the best batting average in the league, most home runs, or most RBIs? 

    Since you have decided to start the insult wagon my way, I will defer on my end. have fun with your stat sheets my friend:)

[Balta1701]

3 minutes ago, The Hawk said:

I guess that you can't answer my simple question. I asked who enters this data for range factor and the "Inside Edge" stuff? As for as my not being able to "handle" these "stats", that's pretty funny since I had a statistics emphasis in graduate school. I can "handle" statistics just peachy, my friend. I also can handle the fact that many(not all) of these advanced stats aren't worth a crap as a bottom line. Also, tell me when they are going to give a huge trophy for best Range Factor or "Inside Edge" stuff like they do for the best batting average in the league, most home runs, or most RBIs? 

    Since you have decided to start the insult wagon my way, I will defer on my end. have fun with your stat sheets my friend:)

Please show us any of those trophies?