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Trevor Bauer Thread (Mazara Free Zone)

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Hahns free agent signings have been bad. In addition, he has wasted millions of dollars on those free agents. Its staggering the amount of money he has spent on free agents that haven't turned out well. 

 

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7 hours ago, The Hawk said:

I have to ask. What in your minds has Hahn done badly? I have to say that I am shocked about that opinion.

Ohmigod...run for cover Hawk.  There is a LOUD faction of Hahn haters here.  With free agency please try to place all your focus on the 2016-2019 period when the White Sox were actively trying to keep payroll low and not to compete...and ignore Free agent signings like Abreau, Robert, McCann, Kuechel, Grandal as that does not fit the narrative.  With trade talk the only discussion point is that we traded a guy universally thought of as the future best player in baseball for a broken down pitcher who everyone knew was terrible.  When discussing Hahn's first round drafting...focus on Carson Fulmer and Jake Burger and steer away from Tim Anderson, Madrigal, Vaughan and Crochett.   And when discussing managers, point out how stupid Renteria and Cooper are and that Hahn will never get rid of them because he's weak and stupid.   The beast cannot be killed...so try to appease.      

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44 minutes ago, WBWSF said:

Hahns free agent signings have been bad. In addition, he has wasted millions of dollars on those free agents. Its staggering the amount of money he has spent on free agents that haven't turned out well. 

 

Staggering the amount of money spent on bad free agents???  I just looked at worst free agent signings of last decade and of the 15 shown the White Sox have zero of them.  The four years 2016-2019 we averaged $15 million per year signing bad players...but while that is staggering amount of money for me...pretty much chump change for a baseball team.  During that same period the Cubs were paying Jason Heyward about $25 million per year to get them 1.5 WAR. 

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34 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Staggering the amount of money spent on bad free agents???  I just looked at worst free agent signings of last decade and of the 15 shown the White Sox have zero of them.  The four years 2016-2019 we averaged $15 million per year signing bad players...but while that is staggering amount of money for me...pretty much chump change for a baseball team.  During that same period the Cubs were paying Jason Heyward about $25 million per year to get them 1.5 WAR. 

Unless you grade free agency by how the players improved the team, not how little money was wasted.

 

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3 minutes ago, bmags said:

Unless you grade free agency by how the players improved the team, not how little money was wasted.

 

The goal from 2016-2019 was not to improve the team...it was to fill the roster (and help improve draft position).  In 2014-15 the goal was to improve the team which he did (+19 WAR 2014 from Free Agency, +9 WAR 2015).  You can question the rebuild but I'm not sure sitting where we are right now you can question the results.   

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2 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

The goal from 2016-2019 was not to improve the team...it was to fill the roster (and help improve draft position).  In 2014-15 the goal was to improve the team which he did (+19 WAR 2014 from Free Agency, +9 WAR 2015).  You can question the rebuild but I'm not sure sitting where we are right now you can question the results.   

Where are these numbers coming from?

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9 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Where are these numbers coming from?

https://www.soxmachine.com/2019/11/08/avert-your-eyes-an-accounting-of-white-sox-free-agents-in-the-rick-hahn-era/

I suspect it is actually higher than that as this was an anti-Hahn article.  I think it is cumulative WAR during their WS tenure.  The numbers would be better now as Abreu has continued to be great.  But when they were going for it...Melky was fine, David Robertson was good, Duke was fine.  Then we went burned everything down but to judge Hahn's dumpster diving during the rebuild is idiotic.   

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1 minute ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Look, I’m no Hahn hater, but you’re basically siting the signing of Abreu as proof that Hahn has been good in free agency.  That was an excellent signing that he should get credit for, but it was also a broader organizational decision.  And besides that move, his track record was horrific before this past offseason.  I know they’ve made some changes in pro scouting department and have obviously increased their usage of analytics, so there is reason to believe the old Rick Hahn is not necessarily the same one today.  All that being said, his track record in free agency for the most part sucks and saying that doesn’t make one a hater, it makes them objective.

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1 minute ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Look, I’m no Hahn hater, but you’re basically siting the signing of Abreu as proof that Hahn has been good in free agency.  That was an excellent signing that he should get credit for, but it was also a broader organizational decision.  And besides that move, his track record was horrific before this past offseason.  I know they’ve made some changes in pro scouting department and have obviously increased their usage of analytics, so there is reason to believe the old Rick Hahn is not necessarily the same one today.  All that being said, his track record in free agency for the most part sucks and saying that doesn’t make one a hater, it makes them objective.

Based on what?  Does he also not get credit for Robert?  So excluding Robert and Abreu and Keuchel and Grandal...and using the sample of the time we were tanking and assuming that in that time he was actually trying his hardest to make the team great...ok I'll agree with you.  All those 1 year dumpster dive deals were terrible...except McCann but let's put him in the exclusion list too.  

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7 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Based on what?  Does he also not get credit for Robert?  So excluding Robert and Abreu and Keuchel and Grandal...and using the sample of the time we were tanking and assuming that in that time he was actually trying his hardest to make the team great...ok I'll agree with you.  All those 1 year dumpster dive deals were terrible...except McCann but let's put him in the exclusion list too.  

The fact he spent $188M on players not named Jose Abreu and got -0.8 WAR for it?  And whether we were tanking or not (which we weren’t that entire period), we should have gotten more bang for our buck and potentially turned something into a tradable asset.  For example, I pushed hard for signing Lance Lynn during the 2019 offseason and that would have been a much better use of resources than signing Kelvin Herrera.  Hell, we might have beaten the A’s in October had we used our free agent dollars more effectively.

As I said previously, Hahn has made changes to our front office and scouting department and hopefully a more modernized approach leads to better results in free agency.  So far so good with the Grandal & Keuchel signings and hopefully it’s a sign of things to come.  But Hahn doesn’t get a free pass for a bad stretch of free agent signings.

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8 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

The fact he spent $188M on players not named Jose Abreu and got -0.8 WAR for it?  And whether we were tanking or not (which we weren’t that entire period), we should have gotten more bang for our buck and potentially turned something into a tradable asset.  For example, I pushed hard for signing Lance Lynn during the 2019 offseason and that would have been a much better use of resources than signing Kelvin Herrera.  Hell, we might have beaten the A’s in October had we used our free agent dollars more effectively.

As I said previously, Hahn has made changes to our front office and scouting department and hopefully a more modernized approach leads to better results in free agency.  So far so good with the Grandal & Keuchel signings and hopefully it’s a sign of things to come.  But Hahn doesn’t get a free pass for a bad stretch of free agent signings.

He's not getting a free pass.  There are three periods I think it fair to judge him on...2013-2015  The Sale years where he was trying to put together a winner when we had Sale/Quintana.  Hahn was basically a rookie GM and the "go for it" swings sure seem like KW was the back seat driver.  This was also the period where the vast amount of the '$188 million non Abreu money' was spent.  I'm not sure you can give him worse than a C in free agency in that time as Abreu was a great signing...and Melky, Robertson, Duke were ok.  Sox just overall talent at that point of time in majors and minors just wasn't good enough to push them into contention.  Period two is the "trying to lose" phase 2016-2019 and how can you fairly not give him at least a B.   He signed Luis Robert in 2017 which might be one of the greatest signings ever.  Now you have the "all-in" stage 2020-beyond.  I'd say incomplete...but i think Keuchel was really a good pickup.  I had doubts about that signing and was very disappointed we had swung and missed on Wheeler and might even have preferred Madison Bumgartner...but seems like it was the right choice.  I also think Grandal was exactly what we paid for.   I'd still like to see our "Bryce Harper" deal...but really, Phillies seemed a year ahead of us at the time and they've gone nowhere with Harper.  Maybe the idea of spending the $300 million contract across the young core is a better move.  Clearly Hahn is not perfect....Lynn would have been a great addition...Herrera HAS been terrible.  But all Gm's swing and miss.  I just hate the narrative that he has been a disaster because I just don't think the evidence backs that up. 

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4 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

He's not getting a free pass.  There are three periods I think it fair to judge him on...2013-2015  The Sale years where he was trying to put together a winner when we had Sale/Quintana.  Hahn was basically a rookie GM and the "go for it" swings sure seem like KW was the back seat driver.  This was also the period where the vast amount of the '$188 million non Abreu money' was spent.  I'm not sure you can give him worse than a C in free agency in that time as Abreu was a great signing...and Melky, Robertson, Duke were ok.  Sox just overall talent at that point of time in majors and minors just wasn't good enough to push them into contention.  Period two is the "trying to lose" phase 2016-2019 and how can you fairly not give him at least a B.   He signed Luis Robert in 2017 which might be one of the greatest signings ever.  Now you have the "all-in" stage 2020-beyond.  I'd say incomplete...but i think Keuchel was really a good pickup.  I had doubts about that signing and was very disappointed we had swung and missed on Wheeler and might even have preferred Madison Bumgartner...but seems like it was the right choice.  I also think Grandal was exactly what we paid for.   I'd still like to see our "Bryce Harper" deal...but really, Phillies seemed a year ahead of us at the time and they've gone nowhere with Harper.  Maybe the idea of spending the $300 million contract across the young core is a better move.  Clearly Hahn is not perfect....Lynn would have been a great addition...Herrera HAS been terrible.  But all Gm's swing and miss.  I just hate the narrative that he has been a disaster because I just don't think the evidence backs that up. 

I’d say there has been more bad than good under Hahn, but I’m willing to believe our organization was in need of change and that Hahn has sort of overhauled things.  If true, that will help going forward as a decision-maker is only as good as the data he has and the voices underneath him.  And obviously his three major rebuild trades and the Robert signing look like massive winners.  I’m hopeful that Hahn is better than his resume suggests, but this offseason will be the ultimate test.  He’s simply got to deliver and make this team a legit championship contender.

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13 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

He's not getting a free pass.  There are three periods I think it fair to judge him on...2013-2015  The Sale years where he was trying to put together a winner when we had Sale/Quintana.  Hahn was basically a rookie GM and the "go for it" swings sure seem like KW was the back seat driver.  This was also the period where the vast amount of the '$188 million non Abreu money' was spent.  I'm not sure you can give him worse than a C in free agency in that time as Abreu was a great signing...and Melky, Robertson, Duke were ok.  Sox just overall talent at that point of time in majors and minors just wasn't good enough to push them into contention.  Period two is the "trying to lose" phase 2016-2019 and how can you fairly not give him at least a B.   He signed Luis Robert in 2017 which might be one of the greatest signings ever.  Now you have the "all-in" stage 2020-beyond.  I'd say incomplete...but i think Keuchel was really a good pickup.  I had doubts about that signing and was very disappointed we had swung and missed on Wheeler and might even have preferred Madison Bumgartner...but seems like it was the right choice.  I also think Grandal was exactly what we paid for.   I'd still like to see our "Bryce Harper" deal...but really, Phillies seemed a year ahead of us at the time and they've gone nowhere with Harper.  Maybe the idea of spending the $300 million contract across the young core is a better move.  Clearly Hahn is not perfect....Lynn would have been a great addition...Herrera HAS been terrible.  But all Gm's swing and miss.  I just hate the narrative that he has been a disaster because I just don't think the evidence backs that up. 

This is correct. 

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1 hour ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

He's not getting a free pass.  There are three periods I think it fair to judge him on...2013-2015  The Sale years where he was trying to put together a winner when we had Sale/Quintana.  Hahn was basically a rookie GM and the "go for it" swings sure seem like KW was the back seat driver.  This was also the period where the vast amount of the '$188 million non Abreu money' was spent.  I'm not sure you can give him worse than a C in free agency in that time as Abreu was a great signing...and Melky, Robertson, Duke were ok.  Sox just overall talent at that point of time in majors and minors just wasn't good enough to push them into contention.  Period two is the "trying to lose" phase 2016-2019 and how can you fairly not give him at least a B.   He signed Luis Robert in 2017 which might be one of the greatest signings ever.  Now you have the "all-in" stage 2020-beyond.  I'd say incomplete...but i think Keuchel was really a good pickup.  I had doubts about that signing and was very disappointed we had swung and missed on Wheeler and might even have preferred Madison Bumgartner...but seems like it was the right choice.  I also think Grandal was exactly what we paid for.   I'd still like to see our "Bryce Harper" deal...but really, Phillies seemed a year ahead of us at the time and they've gone nowhere with Harper.  Maybe the idea of spending the $300 million contract across the young core is a better move.  Clearly Hahn is not perfect....Lynn would have been a great addition...Herrera HAS been terrible.  But all Gm's swing and miss.  I just hate the narrative that he has been a disaster because I just don't think the evidence backs that up. 

Every defense of Hahn free agent record is always “see he could have done worse!”

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13 minutes ago, The Hawk said:

 My point on Moncada was tongue in cheek. Mazara was before this silly season, an average major league right fielder offensively and defensively. NO question that Moncada is the better major league player. But, they both got sick and their performance slipped greatly. Its not like they have gotten old and can't rebound. They both are young. As for buying similar expectations on the free agent market, I kind of doubt it. I think that $4.5-5.5M is pretty reasonable.

  

The problem is Mazara was so bad can you even take the risk? He hit a homer in 60 games and basically became a singles hitter. I think our front office wants to go big so we shall see how they play it. Mazara with his norms I'd be okay with as a platoon, but the guy we got this season isn't worth the risk to me. 

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3 minutes ago, bmags said:

Every defense of Hahn free agent record is always “see he could have done worse!”

Yeah I think my defense was "Abreu, Robert, McCann, Grandal, Keuchel" but you are welcome to make the counter argument of "yeah, well, shut up".  

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4 minutes ago, The Hawk said:

I guess then that I just must disagree with that opinion regarding Hahn. Somehow maybe the best batting order in all of baseball got put together somehow and the cost of it doesn't even come close to the cost of the so-called "elite" baseball organizations. Hahn did it via smart trades and excellent drafting as well as harvesting Latin America better than anyone else around. I personally think that the high end free agent signings turn out to be unsuccessful in the majority of cases and can actually hamstring an organization's ability to go forward. Looking at the free agents that the Sox brought in, some have really helped this team and didn't break the bank. I'm talking about McCann, Grandal, Colome  Kuechel, He's had some misses but all GMs miss

Harvesting Latin America better than anyone around?  Excellent drafting?  What team are you following because it isn’t the White Sox.

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Just now, michelangelosmonkey said:

Yeah I think my defense was "Abreu, Robert, McCann, Grandal, Keuchel" but you are welcome to make the counter argument of "yeah, well, shut up".  

Well by your logic his rookie Gm years don’t count so we can’t give him credit for Abreu. Or does that only work for his bad signings?

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5 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

The problem is Mazara was so bad can you even take the risk? He hit a homer in 60 games and basically became a singles hitter. I think our front office wants to go big so we shall see how they play it. Mazara with his norms I'd be okay with as a platoon, but the guy we got this season isn't worth the risk to me. 

No way Hahn takes the risk.  Two years in a row he got worst in league performance out of RF.  He isn’t going to risk a third straight by running with the same guy.

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3 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Ohmigod...run for cover Hawk.  There is a LOUD faction of Hahn haters here.  With free agency please try to place all your focus on the 2016-2019 period when the White Sox were actively trying to keep payroll low and not to compete...and ignore Free agent signings like Abreau, Robert, McCann, Kuechel, Grandal as that does not fit the narrative.  With trade talk the only discussion point is that we traded a guy universally thought of as the future best player in baseball for a broken down pitcher who everyone knew was terrible.  When discussing Hahn's first round drafting...focus on Carson Fulmer and Jake Burger and steer away from Tim Anderson, Madrigal, Vaughan and Crochett.   And when discussing managers, point out how stupid Renteria and Cooper are and that Hahn will never get rid of them because he's weak and stupid.   The beast cannot be killed...so try to appease.      

That's pretty good. Thanks for the warning:) I've gotta be honest, though. I hated it when the Sox traded Sale and Q and waved the white flag. But my anger was and still gets directed at Reinny and not Hahn. I've always thought that the problem with the White Sox has always been Reinny not committing to winning by bringing in people who know talent and building a system to sustain a winning major league team over a long period of time. I think that Hahn is proving that he knows how to do that. Signing guys like Robert, Moncada, JImenez while they are babies in baseball was genius and the drafting of some other young talent, especially pitchers to me is building a team and its future the smart way.

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11 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Harvesting Latin America better than anyone around?  Excellent drafting?  What team are you following because it isn’t the White Sox.

Robert, Jimenez, Moncada were all on the White Sox radar very early on. When they had a chance to harvest them, they took advantage of it. Abreu is one of the best Latin players ever plucked from Latin America. No question that their drafting has been over-all bad in the last decade but they have done, I believe much better ever since the dismantling of the late 2010s including the latest additions of a bunch of young pitchers and Vaughn, Madrigal, 

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1 hour ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

 Melky, Robertson, Duke were ok.  

This is the kinda stuff that really bugs me. The White Sox signed Melky Cabrera to a $39 million deal. Over that deal he was worth 2.2 fWAR. That's nearly $20 million per win at a time when an average contract was something like $8 million per WAR. Cabrera was a replacement level player in both 2015 and 2017. There's a reason why they spent $50 million+ in new money going into 2015 and traded away several players and improved by a grand total of 3 wins. 

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36 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

This is the kinda stuff that really bugs me. The White Sox signed Melky Cabrera to a $39 million deal. Over that deal he was worth 2.2 fWAR. That's nearly $20 million per win at a time when an average contract was something like $8 million per WAR. Cabrera was a replacement level player in both 2015 and 2017. There's a reason why they spent $50 million+ in new money going into 2015 and traded away several players and improved by a grand total of 3 wins. 

My only point is that Melky was not a DISASTER.  Pablo Sandovar at $95 million was a disaster.  Hanley Ramirez at $88 million was a disaster.  Yasmany Tomas at $68 million was a disaster all in the same year as Melky's $39 for three.  Melky was a roll of the dice that was arguable at the time.   I'm not defending the move...I didn't like the go-for-it concept in 2014...I thought we were too far away in talent...but to keep saying that Hahn is terrible with free agents and deny Abreu, Robert, McCann, Keuchel and Grandal as "special cases" really bugs me. 

 

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On 10/22/2020 at 5:07 PM, Balta1701 said:

I think it says a lot that the White Sox didn’t trust him enough to play him over Mazara even when he was clearly playing better. 

No one, and I mean no one on this planet, hates Rick Hahn trades more than me. But if we can’t afford to sign both a RF and a starting pitcher of the caliber that will make us a threat to the Rays and Yankees and Astros, let alone the freaking Dodgers with Betts, then now might be the time to trade for a real one. Can another GM make the deal for us?

This remains a league of superteams. You want to beat a super team, you build a super team.

I don't think it says anything except perhaps the people in charge were trying to get guys to play to their norms because then your lineup is much better for the playoffs. Unfortunately it went on too long. They started the season with 3 catchers but abandoned it thus cutting down on time McCann, Grandal, Collins or even Mercedes could DH. The Sox had 2 years to give Yermin a chance and nothing. They did the same shit with EE way too long. When you are 37 and playing a short season excuses for slow starts don't apply and they certainly shouldn't have applied halfway into the season.

The Sox had hitters on the bench or not even on the team way too much and a great fielding, fast , grindy , hustling RF in Engel who was also hitting pretty well. McCann stepped up and proved he wasn't a fluke , Engel stepped up and neither was rewarded with more playing time. You have to sit guys who aren't producing or just get rid of them. RR and Hahn made some very bad decisions for the last 2 years regarding playing time for guys leaving or non performance.

Edited by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

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6 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

My only point is that Melky was not a DISASTER.  Pablo Sandovar at $95 million was a disaster.  Hanley Ramirez at $88 million was a disaster.  Yasmany Tomas at $68 million was a disaster all in the same year as Melky's $39 for three.  Melky was a roll of the dice that was arguable at the time.   I'm not defending the move...I didn't like the go-for-it concept in 2014...I thought we were too far away in talent...but to keep saying that Hahn is terrible with free agents and deny Abreu, Robert, McCann, Keuchel and Grandal as "special cases" really bugs me. 

 

The FA thing with Hahn is that when you count everyone he's signed, including Abreu and McCann, he's spent over $10 million per WAR (someone did that math last year). He only is ever willing to play the low to middle levels of the free agent market, and those levels are extremely high risk, with a majority of players underperforming or outright busting. So it's not terrible, but basically Hahn needs to build a 98 win team before he can be trusted to spend money, because he'll only be able to bring in a tiny improvement by signing FAs. 

I will grant, his performance on signing veterans is far better than his performance trading for them, which is consistently awful. 

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