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MLB 2020-21 off season catch all

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15 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Wow so you want to die on the Teheran hill?   Yes 30 is on the downside of a pitchers career...and especially looks bad on a guy who hasn't been "good" since 2016. While he is "free" the point is you have a limited number of pitchers you can have on your roster.  It's so ridiculous that Stiever was "pounded" last year (one bad inning actually), Lopez is garbage with his 6 ERA but Teheran who had a 10 ERA is fine to bring in.   More Teheran is not better...it is a sign of desperation for a bad team...honest.     

You keep using Teheran's 2020 10 era while suffering from covid which for him, was NOT asymtomatic.  I've only mentioned it twice but you knowingly keep going there for lack of facts.  According to your assessment, I guess the Sox should lose Moncada as well because of his bad 2020 even though their symptoms were nearly identical.  

Let's see, Lopez 6 era over 210 innings over 2 years and led the league in ER's in 2019 whom Stone said "needs a lot of work" vs Teheran's Covid-suffering 31 innings in 2020 and 350 innings of 3.87 (~4.20 AL) through 2018-19.  Got it!   Adding the pure nonsense of Teheran not being good since 2016 while accepting Lopez's body of work with just 1 equivalent year out of his 5. which was 3 years ago is extremely disparate.  Got it.  All your ridiculous rhetoric because you oppose a risk free, cost free evaluation of a quality veteran presence is baffling.  Yet you must cheer some of the other invitees like Mike Wright & Matt Tomshaw because they're such better options. 

I singled out Teheran because of his Tiger deal.  If any other available FA vet SP like Leake or Hamels would agree to a similar tryout deal, the Sox would also be remiss not to invite them.  if they don't make the roster but showed value then try to work out an acceptable AAA deal, if not, then cut them lose; nothing gambled, nothing lost.  If/when other viable options present themselves then trade or release them when applicable. If they were to accept AAA, having that kind of veteran insurance is invaluable given the Sox terrible SP depth, Its pretty simple stuff here.  It includes intangibles that don't show up in analytics charts.  

All done with your silly assessments based on distorted stats.   

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My experience with Teheran as a fantasy owner is that he's akin to Javy Vazquez.

He's mediocre to bad at best and only shows good stats when it doesn't matter - and THAT'S before he missed a season to COVID.

At least with Rodon, you get less innings on his arm and he's a known quantity with the organization.

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6 hours ago, Rounding_Third said:

You keep using Teheran's 2020 10 era while suffering from covid which for him, was NOT asymtomatic.  I've only mentioned it twice but you knowingly keep going there for lack of facts.  According to your assessment, I guess the Sox should lose Moncada as well because of his bad 2020 even though their symptoms were nearly identical.  

Let's see, Lopez 6 era over 210 innings over 2 years and led the league in ER's in 2019 whom Stone said "needs a lot of work" vs Teheran's Covid-suffering 31 innings in 2020 and 350 innings of 3.87 (~4.20 AL) through 2018-19.  Got it!   Adding the pure nonsense of Teheran not being good since 2016 while accepting Lopez's body of work with just 1 equivalent year out of his 5. which was 3 years ago is extremely disparate.  Got it.  All your ridiculous rhetoric because you oppose a risk free, cost free evaluation of a quality veteran presence is baffling.  Yet you must cheer some of the other invitees like Mike Wright & Matt Tomshaw because they're such better options. 

I singled out Teheran because of his Tiger deal.  If any other available FA vet SP like Leake or Hamels would agree to a similar tryout deal, the Sox would also be remiss not to invite them.  if they don't make the roster but showed value then try to work out an acceptable AAA deal, if not, then cut them lose; nothing gambled, nothing lost.  If/when other viable options present themselves then trade or release them when applicable. If they were to accept AAA, having that kind of veteran insurance is invaluable given the Sox terrible SP depth, Its pretty simple stuff here.  It includes intangibles that don't show up in analytics charts.  

All done with your silly assessments based on distorted stats.   

I don't CARE about Teheran...I am SO excited about this team.   In all my following of the White Sox I can't remember so many exciting pitchers under 26...Gio, Cease, Kopech, Crochet, Kelly, Stiever, Thompson, Dahlquist...all on the roster or in our top ten prospect list.  I just don't want the White Sox even considering some 30 year old cast off...irrespective of his league average skills...even if he's free....I don't want them to look at Leake or Hamels.  This is not the time...this is not the team...back when the Sox were trying to squeeze a contender out of the Sale/Quintana/Eaton/Abreu group and they had all sorts of garbage on their staff, bullpen and lineup...sure...bring in Teheran and dream.  But this team has way to much talent to be grasping at straws...and if the wheels do fall of the cart with the rotation...I'm pretty sure you can find a Teheran equivalent by trading a fringe prospect to a non-contender.     

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11 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

I don't CARE about Teheran...I am SO excited about this team.   In all my following of the White Sox I can't remember so many exciting pitchers under 26...Gio, Cease, Kopech, Crochet, Kelly, Stiever, Thompson, Dahlquist...all on the roster or in our top ten prospect list.  I just don't want the White Sox even considering some 30 year old cast off...irrespective of his league average skills...even if he's free....I don't want them to look at Leake or Hamels.  This is not the time...this is not the team...back when the Sox were trying to squeeze a contender out of the Sale/Quintana/Eaton/Abreu group and they had all sorts of garbage on their staff, bullpen and lineup...sure...bring in Teheran and dream.  But this team has way to much talent to be grasping at straws...and if the wheels do fall of the cart with the rotation...I'm pretty sure you can find a Teheran equivalent by trading a fringe prospect to a non-contender.     

Absolutely agree!

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9 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

I don't CARE about Teheran...I am SO excited about this team.   In all my following of the White Sox I can't remember so many exciting pitchers under 26...Gio, Cease, Kopech, Crochet, Kelly, Stiever, Thompson, Dahlquist...all on the roster or in our top ten prospect list.  I just don't want the White Sox even considering some 30 year old cast off...irrespective of his league average skills...even if he's free....I don't want them to look at Leake or Hamels.  This is not the time...this is not the team...back when the Sox were trying to squeeze a contender out of the Sale/Quintana/Eaton/Abreu group and they had all sorts of garbage on their staff, bullpen and lineup...sure...bring in Teheran and dream.  But this team has way to much talent to be grasping at straws...and if the wheels do fall of the cart with the rotation...I'm pretty sure you can find a Teheran equivalent by trading a fringe prospect to a non-contender.     

Absolutely.  People somehow think this is now a 2-3 yr window.  We have multiple super elite prospects joining the team this year.  
 

We’ll probably win the World Series this year and this team is STILL a prequel of the coming juggernaut

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19 minutes ago, Jerksticks said:

this team is STILL a prequel of the coming juggernaut

Can you expand on this view?

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2 minutes ago, hi8is said:

Can you expand on this view?

Hate to speak for others but...the core of the dozen best players are 25 or younger.  Peaks years would be when they are 26-27-28.  So we will see exciting up and comers this year and in a year or two we will see them at their full power.  

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4 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Hate to speak for others but...the core of the dozen best players are 25 or younger.  Peaks years would be when they are 26-27-28.  So we will see exciting up and comers this year and in a year or two we will see them at their full power.  

Yea, I had that thought as well and most specifically thought of Kopech / Crochet as two of the more prevalent examples... but was curious to hear his thoughts.

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4 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Hate to speak for others but...the core of the dozen best players are 25 or younger.  Peaks years would be when they are 26-27-28.  So we will see exciting up and comers this year and in a year or two we will see them at their full power.  

If they can produce at least one more ace internally to replace Giolito between now and the end of the 2023 season, because the odds of going after a TOR starter in free agency are slim and none.  

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1 hour ago, hi8is said:

Yea, I had that thought as well and most specifically thought of Kopech / Crochet as two of the more prevalent examples... but was curious to hear his thoughts.

What michael said but also in a year or so the Sox might have the following:

best CF in baseball

best LF in baseball

top 3 3B in baseball

top 5 SS in baseball

Top 5 2B in baseball

top 5 1B/DH in baseball

top 3-5 C in baseball

Legit aces Gio & Kopech with Cease banging down that 1-2 door.  
 

The most ridiculous young bullpen ever assembled that won’t even miss a beat when Hendriks departs.  
 

This isn’t even dream world really.  The Sox have it set up where they really only have to supplement the back of the rotation and RF in free agency...for the next half decade minimum.  
 

Okay back to sniffing glue.  It’s horse glue cut me a break

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2 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

I don't CARE about Teheran...I am SO excited about this team.   In all my following of the White Sox I can't remember so many exciting pitchers under 26...Gio, Cease, Kopech, Crochet, Kelly, Stiever, Thompson, Dahlquist...all on the roster or in our top ten prospect list.  I just don't want the White Sox even considering some 30 year old cast off...irrespective of his league average skills...even if he's free....I don't want them to look at Leake or Hamels.  This is not the time...this is not the team...back when the Sox were trying to squeeze a contender out of the Sale/Quintana/Eaton/Abreu group and they had all sorts of garbage on their staff, bullpen and lineup...sure...bring in Teheran and dream.  But this team has way to much talent to be grasping at straws...and if the wheels do fall of the cart with the rotation...I'm pretty sure you can find a Teheran equivalent by trading a fringe prospect to a non-contender.     

1998-2001

Rauch, Buehrle, Kip Wells, Matt Ginter, Lorenzo Barcelo, Jason Stumm, Rocky Biddle, Josh Fogg, Danny Wright, Aaron Myette, Brian West...there was another whose name I can't remember who ended up with the Indians

https://www.baseballamerica.com/stories/2000-organization-of-the-year-chicago-white-sox/

 

If Crochet can stick as a starter, and morph into Randy Johnson, and not get injured...but that's going to require hitting on either Cease or Kopech and AT LEAST one more starter out of the group you listed.

Norge Vera could be added there as well.

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29 minutes ago, Jerksticks said:

What michael said but also in a year or so the Sox might have the following:

best CF in baseball

best LF in baseball

top 3 3B in baseball

top 5 SS in baseball

Top 5 2B in baseball

top 5 1B/DH in baseball

top 3-5 C in baseball

Legit aces Gio & Kopech with Cease banging down that 1-2 door.  
 

The most ridiculous young bullpen ever assembled that won’t even miss a beat when Hendriks departs.  
 

This isn’t even dream world really.  The Sox have it set up where they really only have to supplement the back of the rotation and RF in free agency...for the next half decade minimum.  
 

Okay back to sniffing glue.  It’s horse glue cut me a break

3B has been one of the deepest positions in baseball.  If Moncada returns to 2019 form, he's Top 4-6, but that's still far behind someone like Jose Ramirez.

Madrigal, by fWAR, is never going to stand out.  He will likely settle in at a 2.25-3.5 fWAR range but not a star.

Abreu's going to hit his age decline, but Vaughn realistically could get there.

Jimenez will also be limited by his defense and baserunning to a 2.75-4.25 fWAR range.

Grandal's about to hit his decline as well.

 

As far as Robert goes, he has a ways to go before he supplants Mike Trout.

 

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1 hour ago, Jerksticks said:

What michael said but also in a year or so the Sox might have the following:

best CF in baseball

best LF in baseball

top 3 3B in baseball

top 5 SS in baseball

Top 5 2B in baseball

top 5 1B/DH in baseball

top 3-5 C in baseball

Legit aces Gio & Kopech with Cease banging down that 1-2 door.  
 

The most ridiculous young bullpen ever assembled that won’t even miss a beat when Hendriks departs.  
 

This isn’t even dream world really.  The Sox have it set up where they really only have to supplement the back of the rotation and RF in free agency...for the next half decade minimum.  
 

Okay back to sniffing glue.  It’s horse glue cut me a break

Ok...so I would like there to be general bets taken as to whether or not there is a better CF in baseball right now. 

That one...might be a bit of a challenge. Say top 2 and I'll believe it.

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7 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

as to whether or not there is a better CF in baseball right now. 

Jared Mitchel?

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4 hours ago, Jerksticks said:

Absolutely.  People somehow think this is now a 2-3 yr window.  We have multiple super elite prospects joining the team this year.  
 

We’ll probably win the World Series this year and this team is STILL a prequel of the coming juggernaut

The amount of delusion still out there is staggering.

Edited by RagahRagah
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1 hour ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

You're delusional if you think our window is 3 years.. 

No, not that. I'm mainly focused on the idea that we are "probably going to win the world series" this year. 

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1 minute ago, RagahRagah said:

No, not that. I'm mainly focused on the idea that we are "probably going to win the world series" this year. 

Oh absolutely.  This isn't our year. Still 3 teams easily ahead of us.  (Dodgers, Padres, Yankees)

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Playoff baseball is fun but it's kind of its own compartmentalized thing to me (since I never experience rooting for a team in it), but winning regular seasons are just incredibly enjoyable and I just want that.

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34 minutes ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

Oh absolutely.  This isn't our year. Still 3 teams easily ahead of us.  (Dodgers, Padres, Yankees)

On paper, yes,  but just get there. If the Sox pitchers are on a roll, they will be able to beat anybody.

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1 hour ago, Dick Allen said:

On paper, yes,  but just get there. If the Sox pitchers are on a roll, they will be able to beat anybody.

I think most of the scepticism and nervousness is based on the fact that if we don't do it this year, we are gonna have a whole lot of problems in the starting pitching department as-is going forward. 

Edited by RagahRagah

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31 minutes ago, RagahRagah said:

I think most of the scepticism and nervousness is based on the fact that if we don't do it this year, we are gonna have a whole lot of problems in the starting pitching department as-is going forward. 

Maybe.  But I think it’s a coin flip whether it’s a problem or a strength.  
 

Michael Kopech.  Very arguably still the absolute best starting pitching prospect in baseball.  This is a huge year for him.  If he comes out and proves he’s the best starting pitching prospect in baseball then all my worries go away.  
 

It’s a coin flip, which is actually really good odds 

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3 hours ago, RagahRagah said:

No, not that. I'm mainly focused on the idea that we are "probably going to win the world series" this year. 

Right.  But like I said, this 2021 team is still a prequel of our better years to come.  I think we’re way better than the Yankees on paper so the path to the WS is there.  Even this year, which is a year or two early 

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16 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

1998-2001

Rauch, Buehrle, Kip Wells, Matt Ginter, Lorenzo Barcelo, Jason Stumm, Rocky Biddle, Josh Fogg, Danny Wright, Aaron Myette, Brian West...there was another whose name I can't remember who ended up with the Indians

https://www.baseballamerica.com/stories/2000-organization-of-the-year-chicago-white-sox/

 

If Crochet can stick as a starter, and morph into Randy Johnson, and not get injured...but that's going to require hitting on either Cease or Kopech and AT LEAST one more starter out of the group you listed.

Norge Vera could be added there as well.

I lived through that ERA but no where near this level of power arms...I dont think we knew who Buehrle was until he came up and was great...in 2000 he was just a lefty control pitcher.  Jon Rauch in 2000 was Kopech exciting...but only that one year.  Kip Wells but maybe Stiever exciting?  Great A pitcher...but age and stats all favor Stiever.  You didnt mention Garland who was 20 in 2000 and seemed exciting.  The other guys you mention I recall but not to the same level. I think if you were drafting 2000 Sox pitchers and 2021 Rauch top five...maybe third.  Wells maybe 7th?  Could be recency bias...and obviously in retrospect you have Buehrle and Garland in top five.  But I have to say from a potential point 2021 by a mile.  A better comparison is 1995....Alex Fernandez, Wilson Alvarez , Jason Bere, Mike Sirotka, Scott Ruffcorn, James Baldwin...I remember being really excited about Baldwin and Ruffcorn.  But not much after them.  

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