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Garrett Crochet

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Most likely they delayed his TJ to mid-April. 

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18 hours ago, ptatc said:

It will probably increase the chance. The more often he throws at max velocity, the more likely he is to have a UCL reconstruction. If they stretch him out but he continues to throw 100 as often as he can, he will get to the surgery sooner. 

I know everyone disliked cooper but one thing he did for most of his career was to have pitcher back off velocity to create movement. This protected elbows. It wasn't until the last few years when he started buying into the "analytics" that we saw pitchers throwing with max velocity consistently that the UCLs started occurring more often. You debate the effectiveness of each approach but one thing we know is that if you throw at max velocity for a large portion of your pitches, it is likely you will tear the UCL.

What about that great curve ball Crochet throws?  And, that was a super curve he threw for the strikeout before he was pulled.  Does that kind of pitch create UCL problems?  I could be wrong here, but it seems like many have put one of his feet into the operating room way too soon.

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Definitely milb. If he became a High Level reliever that still would be a solid result at his draft spot (probably about 50th percentile outcome) but the first try for a first rounder should always trying to make him a starter.

And to become a starter he needs to first build up his stamina by ramping up innings and also work on improving his command and his change up or another third pitch.

If you have him just let it ride with his FB and slider for 1-2 innings that would probably work in the majors as a reliever but not develope him as a starter.

If his innings are controlled you could still bring him up for the playoffs later in the year if you need him but first priority must be trying to develope him as a starter and that only works in the minors.

This has the additional advantage that if he eventually needs TJ you are not burning 2 years of service time on the DL like it happened with kopech.

Edited by Dominikk85

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59 minutes ago, oldsox said:

What about that great curve ball Crochet throws?  And, that was a super curve he threw for the strikeout before he was pulled.  Does that kind of pitch create UCL problems?  I could be wrong here, but it seems like many have put one of his feet into the operating room way too soon.

Not really. He stays on top of it pretty well from the few I've seen. For breaking pitches there I'd more stress on the elbow when you drop down or get on the side of it more. The research shows if your hands gets more than 11 inches from your head going laterally, you have a greater chance of injuring the UCL.

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52 minutes ago, ptatc said:

Not really. He stays on top of it pretty well from the few I've seen. For breaking pitches there I'd more stress on the elbow when you drop down or get on the side of it more. The research shows if your hands gets more than 11 inches from your head going laterally, you have a greater chance of injuring the UCL.

@ptatc

I'm wondering your opinion on the "late load" theory that being off time is what injures pitchers. 

Some people think that the increase in velocity that we're seeing is because they've found that pitchers throw harder when they load the elbow/shoulder late, and that is also why pitchers get injured more often. Some people also think that early loading has a similar effect. 

So how much of pitcher health is about syncing the delivery properly and how much of velocity is about early/late loading? 

The way I understand it is that when a pitcher's front foot hits the ground you want the elbow to be bent like an L and even with the pitcher's head, and that is considered on time. 

 

Edited by Jack Parkman

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I'm less worried about what a pitcher does in back as to what happens out front.  You can have a guy with what's considered a clean arm action blow out in HS and a guy with a bad arm action pitch for 10+ years in the big leagues.   There's no rhyme or reason to why a pitcher gets injured but one thing that is true of every big leaguer is they're really good out front.  They have good extension, a strong lead leg, a consistent release point and follow thru, stay on top of the baseball and they have great stuff .  Crochet is excellent out front.  I hope they give him a full year as a starter.  If they want to limit his innings a bit to bring him up in September that's fine but he has to be developed as a starter.  He has a chance to be special.  

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7 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

I'm less worried about what a pitcher does in back as to what happens out front.  You can have a guy with what's considered a clean arm action blow out in HS and a guy with a bad arm action pitch for 10+ years in the big leagues.   There's no rhyme or reason to why a pitcher gets injured but one thing that is true of every big leaguer is they're really good out front.  They have good extension, a strong lead leg, a consistent release point and follow thru, stay on top of the baseball and they have great stuff .  Crochet is excellent out front.  I hope they give him a full year as a starter.  If they want to limit his innings a bit to bring him up in September that's fine but he has to be developed as a starter.  He has a chance to be special.  

I know this isn't the best example because ... he didn't make it to a second contract. 

But the royals were able to use Brandon Finnegan as a reliever immediately and then Reds started converting him to a starter mid-season.

Do we think he can effectively develop a third offering in the bullpen, and can his innings build up enough in the bullpen?

I do think he should start in minors, but he has a lot of value to the 2021 sox.

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3 hours ago, bmags said:

I know this isn't the best example because ... he didn't make it to a second contract. 

But the royals were able to use Brandon Finnegan as a reliever immediately and then Reds started converting him to a starter mid-season.

Do we think he can effectively develop a third offering in the bullpen, and can his innings build up enough in the bullpen?

I do think he should start in minors, but he has a lot of value to the 2021 sox.

I'm all for aggressive promotions but the Sox have been overly aggressive in pitcher development.  I don't want them to get greedy and try to get too much out of Crochet too early.  Good god did they not learn anything from the playoff game fiasco or from how they mishandled Rodon, Fulmer and Burdi. Don't push him to fast. Give him the time he needs to develop. 

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3 hours ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

I'm less worried about what a pitcher does in back as to what happens out front.  You can have a guy with what's considered a clean arm action blow out in HS and a guy with a bad arm action pitch for 10+ years in the big leagues.   There's no rhyme or reason to why a pitcher gets injured but one thing that is true of every big leaguer is they're really good out front.  They have good extension, a strong lead leg, a consistent release point and follow thru, stay on top of the baseball and they have great stuff .  Crochet is excellent out front.  I hope they give him a full year as a starter.  If they want to limit his innings a bit to bring him up in September that's fine but he has to be developed as a starter.  He has a chance to be special.  

Completely agree. I think he's a starter in Birmingham and comes up out of big league bullpen late in season. 

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4 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

@ptatc

I'm wondering your opinion on the "late load" theory that being off time is what injures pitchers. 

Some people think that the increase in velocity that we're seeing is because they've found that pitchers throw harder when they load the elbow/shoulder late, and that is also why pitchers get injured more often. Some people also think that early loading has a similar effect. 

So how much of pitcher health is about syncing the delivery properly and how much of velocity is about early/late loading? 

The way I understand it is that when a pitcher's front foot hits the ground you want the elbow to be bent like an L and even with the pitcher's head, and that is considered on time. 

 

I'm not a big fan of the L for the elbow. It makes them flip the shoulder too much .

I don't think the such is to big if a deal as long as the force is transferred properly. 

The primary reason for the increased velocity is the stupid spin with the follow through and the reversion back to the 4 seam fastball up in the zone in my opinion. 

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4 hours ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

I'm less worried about what a pitcher does in back as to what happens out front.  You can have a guy with what's considered a clean arm action blow out in HS and a guy with a bad arm action pitch for 10+ years in the big leagues.   There's no rhyme or reason to why a pitcher gets injured but one thing that is true of every big leaguer is they're really good out front.  They have good extension, a strong lead leg, a consistent release point and follow thru, stay on top of the baseball and they have great stuff .  Crochet is excellent out front.  I hope they give him a full year as a starter.  If they want to limit his innings a bit to bring him up in September that's fine but he has to be developed as a starter.  He has a chance to be special.  

There are very few pitchers coming up with a good follow through. The spin instead if finish straight towards the plate causes an increased torque and stress throughout the arm.

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17 minutes ago, ptatc said:

I'm not a big fan of the L for the elbow. It makes them flip the shoulder too much .

I don't think the such is to big if a deal as long as the force is transferred properly. 

The primary reason for the increased velocity is the stupid spin with the follow through and the reversion back to the 4 seam fastball up in the zone in my opinion. 

I think you're talking about the inverted L not the upright L. 

I'm talking about this position: 

Ryan, Nolan | Baseball Hall of Fame

 

I think you're talking about this one: 

B.J. Ryan | Baseball Wiki | Fandom

 

When I talk about late loading I'm talking about what Dunning is doing in this pic: 

With Dunning deal done, Nats have signed top 19 draft picks - Nationals  Pastime

 

Look at how Dunning's arm is parallel to the ground and Nolan Ryan's is upright at foot plant. That's what I'm talking about. 

Edited by Jack Parkman
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3 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

I think you're talking about the inverted L not the upright L. 

I'm talking about this position: 

Ryan, Nolan | Baseball Hall of Fame

 

I think you're talking about this one: 

B.J. Ryan | Baseball Wiki | Fandom

 

When I talk about late loading I'm talking about what Dunning is doing in this pic: 

With Dunning deal done, Nats have signed top 19 draft picks - Nationals  Pastime

 

Look at how Dunning's arm is parallel to the ground and Nolan Ryan's is upright at foot plant. That's what I'm talking about. 

I understand what you're saying. If they have the upright L they still need to go from full external rotation to internal rotation which puts stress on the rotator cuff if the elbow extended a little more there is less stress. Of course you can't extend it too far then you put stress on the UCL. As I said its not awful to stay up like that, I'm just not a fan of making sure it stays there.

I'm not really concerned with the late loading too much as long as they transfer the weight well. If it does happen too late then they do need to flip from external to internal rotation quickly and that could be an issue.

No one should ever use Nolan Ryan as an example. He did a lot of stuff that put extra stress all over the place. He just genetically could do it . I've had many of discussions with Tom House who taught that approach for years. He started out at homewood flossmoor high school and still comes to the area. Thankfully his philosophy has lost prevalence over the last decade. The last pitcher to really follow that was Mark Prior. 

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13 minutes ago, ptatc said:

I understand what you're saying. If they have the upright L they still need to go from full external rotation to internal rotation which puts stress on the rotator cuff if the elbow extended a little more there is less stress. Of course you can't extend it too far then you put stress on the UCL. As I said its not awful to stay up like that, I'm just not a fan of making sure it stays there.

I'm not really concerned with the late loading too much as long as they transfer the weight well. If it does happen too late then they do need to flip from external to internal rotation quickly and that could be an issue.

No one should ever use Nolan Ryan as an example. He did a lot of stuff that put extra stress all over the place. He just genetically could do it . I've had many of discussions with Tom House who taught that approach for years. He started out at homewood flossmoor high school and still comes to the area. Thankfully his philosophy has lost prevalence over the last decade. The last pitcher to really follow that was Mark Prior. 

Prior was closer to Dunning than Nolan Ryan

44,627 Mark Prior Photos and Premium High Res Pictures - Getty Images

 

Verlander is someone who stayed healthy for a long time before his arm finally gave out. Closer to Nolan Ryan

Justin Verlander will have Tommy John surgery; Astros ace to miss 2021

Edited by Jack Parkman

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4 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Prior was closer to Dunning than Nolan Ryan

44,627 Mark Prior Photos and Premium High Res Pictures - Getty Images

 

Verlander is someone who stayed healthy for a long time before his arm finally gave out. Closer to Nolan Ryan

Justin Verlander will have Tommy John surgery; Astros ace to miss 2021

Verlander had a much shorter stride  and didn't use his wrist to snap the curveball like the other two. Also I think your Prior picture look like it later in the motion as his foot looks down already where Dunning and Ryan have thier foot still off the ground. But that makes Priors arm rotation even later than any of them.

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On 11/20/2020 at 8:18 PM, Heads22 said:

Two questions.

 

1. How do you think the Sox will handle him in 2021?

2. How would you prefer the Sox handle him in 2021?

1.  No idea.

2.  Prepare him to start; big waste of resources to do otherwise.

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1 hour ago, ptatc said:

Verlander had a much shorter stride  and didn't use his wrist to snap the curveball like the other two. Also I think your Prior picture look like it later in the motion as his foot looks down already where Dunning and Ryan have thier foot still off the ground. But that makes Priors arm rotation even later than any of them.

Yeah, and that's my point. 

I'm asking about late loading being a potential injury risk. 

I'm saying potential because there are players like Scherzer that load late and get away with it. 

Edited by Jack Parkman

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38 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Yeah, and that's my point. 

I'm asking about late loading being a potential injury risk. 

I'm saying potential because there are players like Scherzer that load late and get away with it. 

Right. I don't think its that significant unless the arm drags behind too much and they need to flip from external rotation to internal rotation too quickly.

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16 minutes ago, ptatc said:

Right. I don't think its that significant unless the arm drags behind too much and they need to flip from external rotation to internal rotation too quickly.

So if you're as late or later than Prior, then it might be an issue. Got it. 

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6 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

So if you're as late or later than Prior, then it might be an issue. Got it. 

Not necessarily. You would need to see where the arm is in relation to when the foot is on the ground and how they bring their arm through. For example they may have the humerus in the same position but if the elbow is extended more their will be less stress on the shoulder. 

Unfortunately there are few black and white or good and bad items. You need to look at how the whole process blends together. In the picture Prior is lagging pretty far behind though.

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All I'm gonna say is that no one has any idea why some guys stay healthy and others don't. Most ideas and thoughts for maintaining pitcher health in the 90's and 2000's turned out to be nothingburgers. 

I think max velocity is probably a huge part of it; much moreso than inverted arm issues and loads. Many things that were said to be dangerous when I was growing up are now being taught and pushed because they actually aren't bad; like extended long toss, throwing every other day in off-seasons, and etc.

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53 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

All I'm gonna say is that no one has any idea why some guys stay healthy and others don't. Most ideas and thoughts for maintaining pitcher health in the 90's and 2000's turned out to be nothingburgers. 

I think max velocity is probably a huge part of it; much moreso than inverted arm issues and loads. Many things that were said to be dangerous when I was growing up are now being taught and pushed because they actually aren't bad; like extended long toss, throwing every other day in off-seasons, and etc.

I would like to think we have some ideas. Of course things change, its called the practice of medicine for a reason and we are always learning. Back when I started baseball players, especially pitchers didn't touch weights. One of the things Jose Canseco taught baseball is that it beneficial for baseball players to lift.

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14 minutes ago, ptatc said:

I would like to think we have some ideas. Of course things change, its called the practice of medicine for a reason and we are always learning. Back when I started baseball players, especially pitchers didn't touch weights. One of the things Jose Canseco taught baseball is that it beneficial for baseball players to lift.

Yeah but isn't the evidence to the contrary if stamina and durability have been on a steady decline? With advancements in medicine and training you'd think it would be the opposite. They must be doing something wrong.

I can't remember the exact year but I was reading, maybe it was 1965, white Sox yearbook, Gary Peters wrote an article in which he was talking about how pitchers have to spend the off season getting in really good shape because they have to prepare themselves to throw 200 pitches thirty five times a year. But he was talking about running, swimming, splitting wood, etc. Now it practically takes a miracle to get a guy to throw 100 pitches thirty times.

Edited by Vulture

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8 minutes ago, Vulture said:

Yeah but isn't the evidence to the contrary if stamina and durability have been on a steady decline? With advancements in medicine and training you'd think it would be the opposite. They must be doing something wrong.

I can't remember the exact year but I was reading, maybe it was 1965, white Sox yearbook, Gary Peters wrote an article in which he was talking about how pitchers have to spend the off season getting in really good shape because they have to prepare themselves to throw 200 pitches thirty five times a year. But he was talking about running, swimming, splitting wood, etc. Now it practically takes a miracle to get a guy to throw 100 pitches thirty times.

This more because of 1, there are a lot more pitchers needed now so they can't afford to let all break down in the minors like they used to back then. Peter's philosophy won't work for many pitchers as they just break down. The other reason is the pitchers don't pace themselves anymore to throw that many pitches. They throw as hard as they can for as long as they can which only lasts 100-110 pitches at most.

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