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VAfan

White Sox untouchables

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Reading various threads talking about trading this or that guy is distressing to me, because I think the White Sox shouldn't be thinking about trading any core player, and they have a lot of them. 

This is my untouchables list.

  1. Tim Anderson, 27, signed through 2024
  2. Luis Robert, 23, signed through 2027
  3. Eloy Jimenez, 24 (in 2 days), signed through 2026
  4. Yoan Moncada, 25, signed through 2025
  5. Andrew Vaughn, 22, with full control, including when his service date starts
  6. Nick Madrigal, 23, with only one year of service time used
  7. Jose Abreu, 33, MVP in 2020, signed through 2022
  8. Yasmani Grandal, 32, signed through 2023

That is 8/9ths of your starting lineup. The reason they should all be untouchable is because:

A. All except Abreu and Grandal are on the upswing of their careers, with a high likelihood that they will all get better over the next few years.
B. All except Abreu are signed or controlled for the next 3 years, and most are controlled through 4 years (Anderson), 5 years (Moncada and Madrigal?), 6 years (Jimenez and Vaughn?), or 7 years (Robert). 
C. There is no one in the Sox farm system that could reasonably take over for ANY of these players. So if you trade any of them, you then need to find someone to replace them, and it will most likely be a far lesser player. 
D. Andrew Vaughn, who often comes up in trade comments, is the core offensive player under the longest control (he could tie Robert if the Sox start him late this year to add a service time year), and with tremendous upside. There is no way the Sox would get his value back in trade because he's still an unknown. Plus, not only does he anchor the DH spot that has been a huge hole in the Sox lineup, he can help extend Abreu by splitting time at 1B. 

I would also add some pitchers to the untouchables list

  1. Michael Kopech, 24, under control through 2024
  2. Dylan Cease, 24, under control through 2025
  3. Garrett Crochet, 21, under control through 2026?
  4. Lucas Giolito, 26, under control through 2023

Why am I adding these pitchers? 

A. Michael Kopech is an unknown at this point, but should be ready in 2021. Because he's an unknown, he will not bring back value equal to his upside, which is considerable. 
B. Dylan Cease has been a disappointment, but has electric stuff. Like Kopech, he won't bring back value equal to his upside. I want to see if our new pitching coach can do anything close for Cease for what he did for Giolito. He also doesn't need to improve as much as Giolito did to be a very solid 3-4 starter.  And he might be better than that. 
C. Garrett Crochet might become the Sox' best pitcher. 
D. Giolito may end up not staying, depending on his contract demands. But if you ultimately have to trade him, this year is too early. Better to try to extend him before he puts together another excellent year. 

My overall opinion is the White Sox have one of the best young cores in MLB. (I don't follow other teams closely enough to say exactly where we rank.) It's taken years to assemble this group, but they've done so, and they've locked most of them up for a very nice run. The Sox need to supplement them to complete the team, but they can't rob from Peter to pay Paul. They must find ways to add without subtracting. 

Edited by VAfan
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26 minutes ago, VAfan said:

Reading various threads talking about trading this or that guy is distressing to me, because I think the White Sox shouldn't be thinking about trading any core player, and they have a lot of them. 

This is my untouchables list.

  1. Tim Anderson, 27, signed through 2024
  2. Luis Robert, 23, signed through 2027
  3. Eloy Jimenez, 24 (in 2 days), signed through 2026
  4. Yoan Moncada, 25, signed through 2025
  5. Andrew Vaughn, 22, with full control, including when his service date starts
  6. Nick Madrigal, 23, with only one year of service time used
  7. Jose Abreu, 33, MVP in 2020, signed through 2022
  8. Yasmani Grandal, 32, signed through 2023

That is 8/9ths of your starting lineup. The reason they should all be untouchable is because:

A. All except Abreu and Grandal are on the upswing of their careers, with a high likelihood that they will all get better over the next few years.
B. All except Abreu are signed or controlled for the next 3 years, and most are controlled through 4 years (Anderson), 5 years (Moncada and Madrigal?), 6 years (Jimenez and Vaughn?), or 7 years (Robert). 
C. There is no one in the Sox farm system that could reasonably take over for ANY of these players. So if you trade any of them, you then need to find someone to replace them, and it will most likely be a far lesser player. 
D. Andrew Vaughn, who often comes up in trade comments, is the core offensive player under the longest control (he could tie Robert if the Sox start him late this year to add a service time year), and with tremendous upside. There is no way the Sox would get his value back in trade because he's still an unknown. Plus, not only does he anchor the DH spot that has been a huge hole in the Sox lineup, he can help extend Abreu by splitting time at 1B. 

I would also add some pitchers to the untouchables list

  1. Michael Kopech, 24, under control through 2024
  2. Dylan Cease, 24, under control through 2025
  3. Garrett Crochet, 21, under control through 2026?
  4. Lucas Giolito, 26, under control through 2023

Why am I adding these pitchers? 

A. Michael Kopech is an unknown at this point, but should be ready in 2021. Because he's an unknown, he will not bring back value equal to his upside, which is considerable. 
B. Dylan Cease has been a disappointment, but has electric stuff. Like Kopech, he won't bring back value equal to his upside. I want to see if our new pitching coach can do anything close for Cease for what he did for Giolito. He also doesn't need to improve as much as Giolito did to be a very solid 3-4 starter.  And he might be better than that. 
C. Garrett Crochet might become the Sox' best pitcher. 
D. Giolito may end up not staying, depending on his contract demands. But if you ultimately have to trade him, this year is too early. Better to try to extend him before he puts together another excellent year. 

My overall opinion is the White Sox have one of the best young cores in MLB. (I don't follow other teams closely enough to say exactly where we rank.) It's taken years to assemble this group, but they've done so, and they've locked most of them up for a very nice run. The Sox need to supplement them to complete the team, but they can't rob from Peter to pay Paul. They must find ways to add without subtracting. 

Madrigal isn't an untouchable for me and neither is Cease. Cease has wicked stuff but has no idea where any of it is going. Looking at his delivery, it's hard to see how he can gain enough control and command, because you can't pinpoint a delivery issue with him like you could with Giolito. I think Giolito would have been good a lot earlier in his career if the Nationals would have just let him be and not changed his delivery after dominating AA. 

Madrigal is an interesting case. He wasn't as good of a defender and baserunner as advertised during his first stint in the Bigs, but as a hitter he was as advertised. I guess, with all of the position players that the Sox have, I'd be most willing to move him. 

 

 

 

Edited by Jack Parkman
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Never

  • Robert
  • Jiminez

Child Please

  • Giolito
  • Anderson
  • Moncada
  • Abreu

Needs to be a top 10 player package

  • Kopech
  • Vaughn
  • Crochet

 

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it's sad

the Sox could literally plug every hole without trading away a single player, but they would rather pinch pennies

this has been the Sox M.O. since I started watching this team

I might not be in agreement with everyone with my next comment but imo the Sox are closer to a world series by keeping the farm intact and landing some top tier FAs than trading for guys who aren't valued by their team anymore and signing some lower tier guys

Edited by joesaiditstrue
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1 hour ago, joesaiditstrue said:

it's sad

the Sox could literally plug every hole without trading away a single player, but they would rather pinch pennies

this has been the Sox M.O. since I started watching this team

I might not be in agreement with everyone with my next comment but imo the Sox are closer to a world series by keeping the farm intact and landing some top tier FAs than trading for guys who aren't valued by their team anymore and signing some lower tier guys

I agree.  Trading the top pieces of the farm likely only shortens the overall contention window and lessens the potential to "retool" ala the Cardinals modus operandi after the heart of the window expires.  The more top pieces that are traded away, the more likely it is that we'll be on a Cubs-like track to a crash-and-burn style rebuild.

I really like the idea of a spot patching anyway.  I like the idea of getting one FA with some real upside to shut down an offense like Paxton or Tanaka (if Bauer won't happen) to sit in the 3 spot in the rotation, with Cease and Dunning developing in the 4th and 5thslot.  Then you sign a veteran or 2 to eat some innings and kind of piggy back the back 2.  Midseason or so, Kopech will be up and can share some time.  Also Stiever may be ready at the end of the year, and Crochet will be in the pen.  All 3 of those guys could get time out of the pen, and hopefully Lambert as well.  

Then if things go fairly well, Cease has developed a bit, so has Dunning, and now there is a logjam.  Depending on how things look, you might be able to trade a vet like Keuchel or the FA signed in 2020 to open up a slot.  You could also maybe use Dunning with some built up value to get a hitter to open up a spot for someone else.  I really love a log jam of excellent SP prospects.  That's like my favorite baseball thing ever.  It's about time we have the kind of situation that you see, it seems, fairly often in places like ATL.

I think Springer is the best long-term FA fit, but if not him, I would not mind a Pederson/Engel platoon at all.  

But anyway, the time is now for Cease and Dunning.  If you aren't going to develop them at the MLB level then you have to trade them and let someone else do it.  They have nothing to learn or prove in the minors. 

Edited by YourWhatHurts

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Madrigal isn't going to be traded. I doubt Kopech or Vaughn will be either. 

Stand pat. Hold on to your cards.

 

 

 

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For the right package I am OK with trading Madrigal, Cease, and Kopech. 

 

However, Kopech and Cease wont bring back the value I would want bc of poor performance and injury. I think we are better off seeing what Katz can do with Cease bc of his stuff and to see what Kopech does once back.

Madrigal I am OK trading if it means bringing back a nice RF and/or SP in a package. It is way easier to sign a Kolten Wong 2nd baseman to replace him than a RF/SP.

I love Nick but you cannot tell me you would not prefer (just throwing a random name out there) Conforto + Wong vs Joc/Engel + Madrigal.

 

Ideally we just freaking use our $ to sign players and keep what we have of course.

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1 minute ago, Capital G said:

For the right package I am OK with trading Madrigal, Cease, and Kopech. 

 

However, Kopech and Cease wont bring back the value I would want bc of poor performance and injury. I think we are better off seeing what Katz can do with Cease bc of his stuff and to see what Kopech does once back.

Madrigal I am OK trading if it means bringing back a nice RF and/or SP in a package. It is way easier to sign a Kolten Wong 2nd baseman to replace him than a RF/SP.

I love Nick but you cannot tell me you would not prefer (just throwing a random name out there) Conforto + Wong vs Joc/Engel + Madrigal.

 

Ideally we just freaking use our $ to sign players and keep what we have of course.

Conforto + Wong is significantly more expensive and the former is only under control for one more year.  I’m ok with moving Madrigal in the right deal, but that’s definitely not for one year of a RF upgrade.  And in all honesty, there is zero reason to trade for a RF unless it’s absorbing a contract from a team looking to move payroll like say the Diamondbacks with Cole Kalhoun.

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12 hours ago, joesaiditstrue said:

it's sad

the Sox could literally plug every hole without trading away a single player, but they would rather pinch pennies

this has been the Sox M.O. since I started watching this team

I might not be in agreement with everyone with my next comment but imo the Sox are closer to a world series by keeping the farm intact and landing some top tier FAs than trading for guys who aren't valued by their team anymore and signing some lower tier guys

100% agree!

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I dont think Madrigals clock has started yet. He came up late enough to have 6 more years of control.

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7 hours ago, ChiSox1917 said:

Absolutely no one is untouchable

Theoretically, sure. I'd trade Robert for Acuna, Fried and Swanson. I'd trade Anderson for Trout.

But those aren't realistic, so yeah unless Tatis becomes available, Robert is an untouchable.

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For me, the list looks like:

Untouchables

Luis Robert

Yoan Moncada

Eloy Jimenez

Tim Anderson

Lucas Giolito

Andrew Vaughn

Garrett Crochet

 

Unmovables

Jose Abreu

Nick Madrigal

Dylan Cease

Dane Dunning

Michael Kopech

Dallas Keuchel

Yasmani Grandal

 

Here's the difference. For me an Untouchable is a player for whom another team could not provide adequate value to acquire while also improving their team. An Unmovable is a player for whom another team would be unlikely to provide the level of value to acquire that would make the White Sox willing to trade the player. I think Crochet is my most controversial pick, but the reason I place him in the first category is that he is a pitcher who made it to MLB in his draft year, has electric stuff, has starter potential, has six years of control minimum, and is left handed. I think these ideas that have Cease, Dunning, or Madrigal moving that I've seen are insane because of how low they have the White Sox selling on these guys. Dylan Cease still has ace potential, though that's certainly fading, but a 3 starter is also not an unimaginable outcome for him. Dane Dunning supposed ceiling is that of a 3 starter (so was Shane Bieber's three years ago), but he's already close to that and IMO you could squint and see a 2 starter there. Madrigal is going to provide a high on base, solid defense, 3-4 WAR profile over the next six years. These are not players you trade for other teams' rentals or albatross contracts, even if they have talent (read: Lance Lynn or Yu Darvish).

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11 hours ago, Dam8610 said:

For me, the list looks like:

Untouchables

Luis Robert

Yoan Moncada

Eloy Jimenez

Tim Anderson

Lucas Giolito

Andrew Vaughn

Garrett Crochet

 

Unmovables

Jose Abreu

Nick Madrigal

Dylan Cease

Dane Dunning

Michael Kopech

Dallas Keuchel

Yasmani Grandal

 

Here's the difference. For me an Untouchable is a player for whom another team could not provide adequate value to acquire while also improving their team. An Unmovable is a player for whom another team would be unlikely to provide the level of value to acquire that would make the White Sox willing to trade the player. I think Crochet is my most controversial pick, but the reason I place him in the first category is that he is a pitcher who made it to MLB in his draft year, has electric stuff, has starter potential, has six years of control minimum, and is left handed. I think these ideas that have Cease, Dunning, or Madrigal moving that I've seen are insane because of how low they have the White Sox selling on these guys. Dylan Cease still has ace potential, though that's certainly fading, but a 3 starter is also not an unimaginable outcome for him. Dane Dunning supposed ceiling is that of a 3 starter (so was Shane Bieber's three years ago), but he's already close to that and IMO you could squint and see a 2 starter there. Madrigal is going to provide a high on base, solid defense, 3-4 WAR profile over the next six years. These are not players you trade for other teams' rentals or albatross contracts, even if they have talent (read: Lance Lynn or Yu Darvish).

You have 14 players in the untouchable or unmovable categories.  I agree with your assessments.  I was a big believer in the "no player is untouchable" philosophy...but this team is something special.

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