Do the sox even have another need?

[Rounding_Third]

In order of importance:

1.  Veteran LH DH (or LF so Eloy can DH - Brantley?)  

2.  Closer  

3.  4th starter

4. Veteran backup catcher.

Our LH bat depth is woeful!  With all due respect to them, Vaughn, Collins, & Yermin should not be on the 2021 roster if Sox are truly "all in".  Vaughn should spend the entire 2021 in AA and/or AAA as did Madrigal and Robert in 2019, no matter his success.  Sox won't start his rookie FA clock with little to none org resume. 

[Chicago White Sox]

31 minutes ago, Rounding_Third said:

In order of importance:

1.  Veteran LH DH (or LF so Eloy can DH - Brantley?)  

2.  Closer  

3.  4th starter

4. Veteran backup catcher.

Our LH bat depth is woeful!  With all due respect to them, Vaughn, Collins, & Yermin should not be on the 2021 roster if Sox are truly "all in".  Vaughn should spend the entire 2021 in AA and/or AAA as did Madrigal and Robert in 2019, no matter his success.  Sox won't start his rookie FA clock with little to none org resume. 

Our biggest need IMO is another SP.  I think we could potentially survive without another bat or any more bullpen additions, but we are without question a starter short at the moment and need a halfway decent one.  I’m praying we sign one of Paxton, Richards, Quintana, or Kluber and don’t go totally cheap just because Kopech will be on the mix at some point.  Too much can go wrong to not have six legit starters to start the season.

After that, I’m prioritizing the bullpen over adding another bat.  No doubt in my mind Hendriks should be the guy as he’s potentially a game changer who moves everyone down a spot and gives you what should be a lockdown pen come playoff time.  If he gets too expensive, I’d like to see us pivot to someone like Yates who still has the potential to be an impact reliever.

As for the offense, give me the best left-handed bat that can be had on the cheap.  We don’t need to sign someone like Brantley who will require a eight figure salary and a multi-year commitment.  LaStella or Miller are both attractive options to fill the role.  A guy like Schwarber could work as well if we go with a more affordable reliever.  Hell, I wouldn’t be opposed in bringing back Mazara if we’re really tight on money.  Regardless, the bigger ticket items should be for the pitching staff and not the offense.

And I will be in the minority here, but I want to give Collins a look in the backup catcher role.  It’s a risk no doubt, but I don’t think he’s been as bad behind the plate as people make him out to be.  I would definitely sign a more proven AAAA type catcher to sit in Charlotte just in case, but I expect Grandal to handle 75% of the starts next year and feel that Zack can handle the rest.

[Rounding_Third]

16 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Our biggest need IMO is another SP.  I think we could potentially survive without another bat or any more bullpen additions, but we are without question a starter short at the moment and need a halfway decent one.  I’m praying we sign one of Paxton, Richards, Quintana, or Kluber and don’t go totally cheap just because Kopech will be on the mix at some point.  Too much can go wrong to not have six legit starters to start the season.

After that, I’m prioritizing the bullpen over adding another bat.  No doubt in my mind Hendriks should be the guy as he’s potentially a game changer who moves everyone down a spot and gives you what should be a lockdown pen come playoff time.  If he gets too expensive, I’d like to see us pivot to someone like Yates who still has the potential to be an impact reliever.

As for the offense, give me the best left-handed bat that can be had on the cheap.  We don’t need to sign someone like Brantley who will require a eight figure salary and a multi-year commitment.  LaStella or Miller are both attractive options to fill the role.  A guy like Schwarber could work as well if we go with a more affordable reliever.  Hell, I wouldn’t be opposed in bringing back Mazara if we’re really tight on money.  Regardless, the bigger ticket items should be for the pitching staff and not the offense.

And I will be in the minority here, but I want to give Collins a look in the backup catcher role.  It’s a risk no doubt, but I don’t think he’s been as bad behind the plate as people make him out to be.  I would definitely sign a more proven AAAA type catcher to sit in Charlotte just in case, but I expect Grandal to handle 75% of the starts next year and feel that Zack can handle the rest.

I guess the wildcard here is what are the Sox still willing to spend to go "all in" in probably a season still (partially?) affected by covid.  Of the 4 SP's you mentioned, Kluber seems way too risky, Richards & Paxton are a little pricier, middle of SP cost range, with Richards not reaching 100 innings in 5 years.  Quintana is lower end cost, seems a real good fit, and might take a discount with the Sox.  Paxton would be a nice signing too if the Sox are willing to go that high.  On the other hand, the org strength is pitching so they have to weight that out.  Can we trust #4 and/or #5 to Cease, Lopez, Kopech, and Stiever (others)?  Perhaps if we had to.  Same with pen, if we had to, could we?  Perhaps.  Successfully?  I think for both there's a chance, be it small.  

However the biggest org weakness is LH hitting.  The 2021 lineup only has 3 LH bats, 2 SH (+ Garcia) and Eaton.  The org's others consist of Collins, Sheets, & Yermin.  Not much there.  Last year, even with the great RH dominated lineup, the Sox batted .254 and were 4 games under .500 against RHP and it may have cost us the division and maybe beyond.  This MUST improve!    If they decide to go lower end due to other signing(s), my 1st choice would be Daniel Murphy at <=$5.  He's a well proven .280-.300 hitter (much better earlier) with decent .OPS.  And I think he's still capable of a truly monster year in this lineup.

Sorry but no way with Collins if "all in".  His defense is not all that good either though small sample size.  Its too important of a position, especially when they probably could get Kurt Suzuki for <=$3. 

Its hard for us GM's here not knowing the top end payroll plan for 2021 (& beyond).   

[Chicago White Sox]

7 minutes ago, Rounding_Third said:

I guess the wildcard here is what are the Sox still willing to spend to go "all in" in probably a season still (partially?) affected by covid.  Of the 4 SP's you mentioned, Kluber seems way too risky, Richards & Paxton are a little pricier, middle of SP cost range, with Richards not reaching 100 innings in 5 years.  Quintana is lower end cost, seems a real good fit, and might take a discount with the Sox.  Paxton would be a nice signing too if the Sox are willing to go that high.  On the other hand, the org strength is pitching so they have to weight that out.  Can we trust #4 and/or #5 to Cease, Lopez, Kopech, and Stiever (others)?  Perhaps if we had to.  Same with pen, if we had to, could we?  Perhaps.  Successfully?  I think for both there's a chance, be it small.  

However the biggest org weakness is LH hitting.  The 2021 lineup only has 3 LH bats, 2 SH (+ Garcia) and Eaton.  The org's others consist of Collins, Sheets, & Yermin.  Not much there.  Last year, even with the great RH dominated lineup, the Sox batted .254 and were 4 games under .500 against RHP and it may have cost us the division and maybe beyond.  This MUST improve!    If they decide to go lower end due to other signing(s), my 1st choice would be Daniel Murphy at <=$5.  He's a well proven .280-.300 hitter (much better earlier) with decent .OPS.  And I think he's still capable of a truly monster year in this lineup.

Sorry but no way with Collins if "all in".  His defense is not all that good either though small sample size.  Its too important of a position, especially when they probably could get Kurt Suzuki for <=$3. 

Its hard for us GM's here not knowing the top end payroll plan for 2021 (& beyond).   

Regarding the offense vs. RHP, a lot of it will come down to Abreu.  If we get the Jose we saw last year against RHP, then I think we should be in decent shape.  The weak points would likely be Anderson & Robert and both those guys should be close to league average worst case scenario.  Don’t get me wrong, I wish they had added more of a power bat they could slide into the middle of the lineup against RHP, but Eaton should be productive in his own way if healthy.  Definitely could use a depth piece who hits from the left side, but I still think that’s a lower priority than our pitching needs.

[Rounding_Third]

2 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Regarding the offense vs. RHP, a lot of it will come down to Abreu.  If we get the Jose we saw last year against RHP, then I think we should be in decent shape.  The weak points would likely be Anderson & Robert and both those guys should be close to league average worst case scenario.  Don’t get me wrong, I wish they had added more of a power bat they could slide into the middle of the lineup against RHP, but Eaton should be productive in his own way if healthy.  Definitely could use a depth piece who hits from the left side, but I still think that’s a lower priority than our pitching needs.

Abreu; what a clutch stud!  Yeah, hopefully Robert can figure it out.  Also that Moncada gets healthy again and has a comeback year (+75 pts).  Poor guy, that covid knocked him for a loop all season. Him and a healthy Eaton is going to very welcome indeed. If he just has an average year, its >50 pts over Mazara.  Just those 3 guys improving alone should help a lot.  Throw in some decent LH DH/LF production and wow!

Also, article out today that proposed Taijuan Walker could be an appealing Sox SP signing.  He's kind of under the radar but only 28 and had an excellent bounce back year from TJ surgery.  He's probably on the low end of the cost scale, too.  Interesting for sure.   

Edited December 19, 2020 by Rounding_Third

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

2 hours ago, Rounding_Third said:

I guess the wildcard here is what are the Sox still willing to spend to go "all in" in probably a season still (partially?) affected by covid.  Of the 4 SP's you mentioned, Kluber seems way too risky, Richards & Paxton are a little pricier, middle of SP cost range, with Richards not reaching 100 innings in 5 years.  Quintana is lower end cost, seems a real good fit, and might take a discount with the Sox.  Paxton would be a nice signing too if the Sox are willing to go that high.  On the other hand, the org strength is pitching so they have to weight that out.  Can we trust #4 and/or #5 to Cease, Lopez, Kopech, and Stiever (others)?  Perhaps if we had to.  Same with pen, if we had to, could we?  Perhaps.  Successfully?  I think for both there's a chance, be it small.  

However the biggest org weakness is LH hitting.  The 2021 lineup only has 3 LH bats, 2 SH (+ Garcia) and Eaton.  The org's others consist of Collins, Sheets, & Yermin.  Not much there.  Last year, even with the great RH dominated lineup, the Sox batted .254 and were 4 games under .500 against RHP and it may have cost us the division and maybe beyond.  This MUST improve!    If they decide to go lower end due to other signing(s), my 1st choice would be Daniel Murphy at <=$5.  He's a well proven .280-.300 hitter (much better earlier) with decent .OPS.  And I think he's still capable of a truly monster year in this lineup.

Sorry but no way with Collins if "all in".  His defense is not all that good either though small sample size.  Its too important of a position, especially when they probably could get Kurt Suzuki for <=$3. 

Its hard for us GM's here not knowing the top end payroll plan for 2021 (& beyond).   

Yes the Sox need another strong LH bat. Yermin is RH btw. If you are going to name Sheets you might as well mention Luis Gonzalez and Blake Rutherford since they are on the 40 man and Sheets isn't. Moncada coming back strong should help and so should Eaton if he stays on the field. But I still agree that the lack of strength against righties was a problem before Moncada and Mazara tanked which just exacerbated it. There just aren't a lot of positions open unless there's a major trade involving getting a lefty while we give up one of our cherished righties like Eloy.

2 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Regarding the offense vs. RHP, a lot of it will come down to Abreu.  If we get the Jose we saw last year against RHP, then I think we should be in decent shape.  The weak points would likely be Anderson & Robert and both those guys should be close to league average worst case scenario.  Don’t get me wrong, I wish they had added more of a power bat they could slide into the middle of the lineup against RHP, but Eaton should be productive in his own way if healthy.  Definitely could use a depth piece who hits from the left side, but I still think that’s a lower priority than our pitching needs.

I also agree with you that pitching is the 1st priority. Collins does need a shot. Can't keep pushing him down . Either trade him or use him. If the Sox do more trades , he's going to be in one of them.  A good discussion but they are all important . Going all in means getting the depth needed to survive injuries if it doesn't involve big signings.

1A: another SP,

1B:  RP, LHB,

1C: fill in the blank for back up catcher and/or more relief pitching

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

39 minutes ago, Rounding_Third said:

Abreu; what a clutch stud!  Yeah, hopefully Robert can figure it out.  Also that Moncada gets healthy again and has a comeback year (+75 pts).  Poor guy, that covid knocked him for a loop all season. Him and a healthy Eaton is going to very welcome indeed. If he just has an average year, its >50 pts over Mazara.  Just those 3 guys improving alone should help a lot.  Throw in some decent LH DH/LF production and wow!

Also, article out today that proposed Taijuan Walker could be an appealing Sox SP signing.  He's kind of under the radar but only 28 and had an excellent bounce back year from TJ surgery.  He's probably on the low end of the cost scale, too.  Interesting for sure.   

I've been saying Taijuan Walker since the thread about  Predict Sox 1st move this off season.

Also if you want another lefty why chose Suzuki instead of someone like Alex Avila who hits righties reasonably well. Kill 2 birds with 1 stone. Improve OBP and OPS against RHP incrementally while still having the option to add another LHB.

Edited December 19, 2020 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Chicago White Sox]

15 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Yes the Sox need another strong LH bat. Yermin is RH btw. If you are going to name Sheets you might as well mention Luis Gonzalez and Blake Rutherford since they are on the 40 man and Sheets isn't. Moncada coming back strong should help and so should Eaton if he stays on the field. But I still agree that the lack of strength against righties was a problem before Moncada and Mazara tanked which just exacerbated it. There just aren't a lot of positions open unless there's a major trade involving getting a lefty while we give up one of our cherished righties like Eloy.

I also agree with you that pitching is the 1st priority. Collins does need a shot. Can't keep pushing him down . Either trade him or use him. If the Sox do more trades , he's going to be in one of them.  A good discussion but they are all important . Going all in means getting the depth needed to survive injuries if it doesn't involve big signings.

1A: another SP,

1B:  RP, LHB,

1C: fill in the blank for back up catcher and/or more relief pitching

Sheets is on the 40 man roster.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

6 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Sheets is on the 40 man roster.

You are right. I always get mixed up with Sheets since his omission from summer camp last years makes me think he isn't on the 40. Oh and thanks a lot I contribute to the discussion and all you do is correct me !

Edited December 19, 2020 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Rounding_Third]

4 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Yes the Sox need another strong LH bat. Yermin is RH btw. If you are going to name Sheets you might as well mention Luis Gonzalez and Blake Rutherford since they are on the 40 man and Sheets isn't. Moncada coming back strong should help and so should Eaton if he stays on the field. But I still agree that the lack of strength against righties was a problem before Moncada and Mazara tanked which just exacerbated it. There just aren't a lot of positions open unless there's a major trade involving getting a lefty while we give up one of our cherished righties like Eloy.

I also agree with you that pitching is the 1st priority. Collins does need a shot. Can't keep pushing him down . Either trade him or use him. If the Sox do more trades , he's going to be in one of them.  A good discussion but they are all important . Going all in means getting the depth needed to survive injuries if it doesn't involve big signings.

1A: another SP,

1B:  RP, LHB,

1C: fill in the blank for back up catcher and/or more relief pitching

 

4 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I've been saying Taijuan Walker since the thread about  Predict Sox 1st move this off season.

Also if you want another lefty why chose Suzuki instead of someone like Alex Avila who hits righties reasonably well. Kill 2 birds with 1 stone. Improve OBP and OPS against RHP incrementally while still having the option to add another LHB.

I may have misinterpreted but I'm not sure what the highlighted means.  But no trades; an every day LH DH and/or LF FA veteran doesn't require a trade or loss of any current players.

Yeah man, Walker is very intriguing for many reasons, not the least of which is he could be very affordable; low risk, high ceiling.

If we got a quality 500+ plate appearance LH bat, whether we get a RHB vs LHB catcher does matter as much.  That being said, Avila is still an excellent defensive player but can't hit worth a *&^%, particularly over the last 3 seasons.  Suzuki's career batting (and recent years) is so much better, including against RHP.  He's not nearly as good defensively as Avila so what would the Sox consider more important?  It also seems logical to me that Grandal's days off would be predominantly against LHP.  Don't know why but I get the feeling that 50 games would be Avilla's top end while Suzuki would breeze through them.  So I like Suzuki better but wonder if he would be ready and willing to reduce his playing time.  Feel so bad for Collins.  Like all Sox fans, been pulling for him.  Sucks that he's struggled.  

Edited December 20, 2020 by Rounding_Third

[Chicago White Sox]

5 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

You are right. I always get mixed up with Sheets since his omission from summer camp last years makes me think he isn't on the 40. Oh and thanks a lot I contribute to the discussion and all you do is correct me !

Lol...all good brother.  Just figured I’d point that out., especially since Sheets has supposedly been playing some OF and could theoretically factor in more ways than one.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

2 hours ago, Rounding_Third said:

 

I may have misinterpreted but I'm not sure what the highlighted means.  But no trades; an every day LH DH and/or LF FA veteran doesn't require a trade or loss of any current players.

Yeah man, Walker is very intriguing for many reasons, not the least of which is he could be very affordable; low risk, high ceiling.

If we got a quality 500+ plate appearance LH bat, whether we get a RHB vs LHB catcher does matter as much.  That being said, Avila is still an excellent defensive player but can't hit worth a *&^%, particularly over the last 3 seasons.  Suzuki's career batting (and recent years) is so much better, including against RHP.  He's not nearly as good defensively as Avila so what would the Sox consider more important?  It also seems logical to me that Grandal's days off would be predominantly against LHP.  Don't know why but I get the feeling that 50 games would be Avilla's top end while Suzuki would breeze through them.  So I like Suzuki better but wonder if he would be ready and willing to reduce his playing time.  Feel so bad for Collins.  Like all Sox fans, been pulling for him.  Sucks that he's struggled.  

Suzuki turned 37 in October, Avila will be 34 in January . Why would  you wonder if Suzuki is willing to reduce his playing time at his age ? I know we all have our favorites but we have to consider the minor role and role in the lineup and defensively for a back up catcher. While I know that BA of Avila's looks ugly but he gets on base at a better clip than Suzuki and hitting last that's pretty much all they want a guy to do down there. Collins is also  good for a walk and tons of power. Collins also has a very good arm Suzuki has a noodle. We're splitting hairs here and Collins is likely the least expensive for a minor role . It's just the backup catcher by stereotype is usually a defensive guy who you would hope can at least get on base at a decent clip. Keep on rooting for Suzuki, I'll just hope the Sox actually try to get some value from Collins in a trade or by actually using him .

One last thing in 10 less games played and less than half the AB's Suzuki had, Avila still had the higher fWar, .2 to 0, which basically shows his ability to walk and defense was worth more in 2020. 2019 Avila played 63 games, 201 Plate appearances to Suzuki's 85 games and 309 PA's. Suzuki's fWar .6 , Avila 1.3 .

[Harold's Leg Lift]

On 12/14/2020 at 9:25 AM, SonofaRoache said:

If we are serious about winning a title next year, then we need one player from each group.

Group A- Paxton/Kluber/Richards/Q

Group B- Hendriks/Rosenthal

Group C- Pederson/Schwarber/any lefty power DH type

These moves make us the ALC favorite and a serious championship contender. Our schedule last year was soft and we beat down the bad teams and struggled against the decent and good teams. We also have to remember other teams in the league will get better for sure. 

I heard Paxton is close to signing with the Padres.  

[Chicago White Sox]

15 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

I heard Paxton is close to signing with the Padres.  

Fucking Padres...hopefully we can steal Richards back from them then.

[Rounding_Third]

10 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Suzuki turned 37 in October, Avila will be 34 in January . Why would  you wonder if Suzuki is willing to reduce his playing time at his age ? I know we all have our favorites but we have to consider the minor role and role in the lineup and defensively for a back up catcher. While I know that BA of Avila's looks ugly but he gets on base at a better clip than Suzuki and hitting last that's pretty much all they want a guy to do down there. Collins is also  good for a walk and tons of power. Collins also has a very good arm Suzuki has a noodle. We're splitting hairs here and Collins is likely the least expensive for a minor role . It's just the backup catcher by stereotype is usually a defensive guy who you would hope can at least get on base at a decent clip. Keep on rooting for Suzuki, I'll just hope the Sox actually try to get some value from Collins in a trade or by actually using him .

One last thing in 10 less games played and less than half the AB's Suzuki had, Avila still had the higher fWar, .2 to 0, which basically shows his ability to walk and defense was worth more in 2020. 2019 Avila played 63 games, 201 Plate appearances to Suzuki's 85 games and 309 PA's. Suzuki's fWar .6 , Avila 1.3 .

Age is relative, Suzuki has remained pretty healthy while Avila has had some issues.  Suzuki's games played the last 5 years or so has come down but still way more than a backup catcher.  Depends on how he feels about reducing them even more to, say, 50 games or so for a full season.  Sound about right for a backup?  All good stuff on Suzuki vs Avila comparison. Avila's D is still so very impressive and it dominates the fWar difference.  His OBP is higher but OPS lower than Suzuki's.   If the Sox got their LH every bat, this stat is less meaningless. Maybe my misperception but durability seems a significant factor to me.  Ironically, one of Avila's worst seasons was with the Sox which probably adds to my slight bias. I obviously prefer Suzuki but would not be disappointed with Avila.  He'd probably be a little more affordable, as well.  Just to add, I don't consider Molina an option.  He's too expensive.  Anyway, I'd be surprised if he didn't take a discount and finish with StL.

Collins is a whole other thing.  He has such a small Sox sample size over 2 years, its hard to judge it.  And his minor league stats are very good but they are minor league stats.   Most importantly, if we sign another vet SP (& new closer) and now the rotation is suddenly very vet and we're all in, we must have a vet backup catcher. When that cost is so minimal, it would be an terrible omission.  If we weren't "all in", different story with him.  I hope they keep Collins around and he can figure it out and be prepared when he's called upon again.  He's too valuable to quit on him. 

          

[Dominikk85]

The Sox are in a great position now due to the lynn trade.

Another TOR starter would be great but even if they get only a decent 4 starter their rotation could be pretty good with giolito, lynn, keuchel, new guy and one of cease or kopech.

 

This means they don't really have much pressure and can wait in contract negotiations.

Get a solid 4 and a late inning reliever and the team looks great and should make the post season. And if they get a TOR like bauer that makes them easily the best AL team.