2021 Plan for Kopech and Crochet

[bmags]

2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

He had accumulated 10 fWAR the two years prior to being traded. I'd argue that's pretty much superstar status or at least really really close. Especially fro a 24 year old

Right I suppose you may limit superstar to like top ten position players in game but Yelich at 24 was a top ten outfielder and had 3(?) years control so certainly in the ballpark of who you'd choose to trade a kopech for today though not sure there is anyone who translates too closely.

[caulfield12]

23 minutes ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

It was easy to project Yelich from hitting 20 bombs to 40?? huh?  

Did I write that?

[Quin]

19 minutes ago, oldsox said:

He was a solid player with big future who was about to get expensive, so Jeter wanted to trade him.  There was discussion with White Sox centering around Alex Hanson, IIRC.  

 

This is the only article I can find: https://www.fishstripes.com/2018/1/8/16861050/exploring-a-christian-yelich-trade-with-the-chicago-white-sox-miami-marlins

So, basically rumors the Sox were in on him and that the Sox had a good war chest to choose from.

[ChiSox59]

Wait people want to trade Kopech?  Are you kidding me?  Dude could very well be the best SP in the game in a year or two.  

[southsider2k5]

4 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Wait people want to trade Kopech?  Are you kidding me?  Dude could very well be the best SP in the game in a year or two.  

Not really, no.  Again one person WANTS to.

[bmags]

13 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Wait people want to trade Kopech?  Are you kidding me?  Dude could very well be the best SP in the game in a year or two.  

Do I want to? No.

Are there players in baseball that I would trade Kopech for? Absolutely.

[Chisoxfn]

On 6/2/2021 at 6:44 AM, southsider2k5 said:

The idea of trading Kopech isn't awful on the surface, but it has to look something like the time Kopech was traded where a superstar with control was the other side of the deal.  Otherwise, you hold on to him and try to turn him into an ace. 

This - I was one of the few people on this board adamant that Kopech wasn't the guy to trade last year because his value was too down and he was way too explosive. I still feel exactly that and it goes back to - the only way I deal Kopech is if I am getting an absolute controlled ace back or some other spot that I see massive value in return.  So odds of that happening are slim - but it could happen.  I've long said Kopech was key to being a true world series team because the Sox aren't going to pay for pitching, so having a true premium arm like his in that rotation is critical, especially when you get to the post-season.  

On Crochet - he is a tougher one and is probably the first guy I would dangle in the situation outlined above.  His arm is dynamic but COVID both helped and hurt him. It helped him in the sense that he probably never gets that early big league entrance if it weren't for COVID, where he just crushed it and even now, he's doing pretty good despite the random complaints.  That said - in the long run, it probably hurt him in the sense that more normally he would have been in the minors getting innings...which to him is critical to unlocking his potential as a starter. 

At this point - I really see him as the guy the Sox develop into a Hader type (or at least try to) - unlock him as a multi-inning reliever who can be dynamic.  But if they can get a piece they like, who is a well above average player and cost controlled - sure.  

[Two-Gun Pete]

6 hours ago, bmags said:

So...a superstar with control

Basically. If you can find one that fits. IOW, it's not a long list of potentials for this type of deal.

5 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Basically, Christian Yelich to Milwaukee...

This is about as close to what it would take for Kopech. Except that isn't Yelich a below average LFer, not a RFer at this point in his career? I'd think he'd check a lot of boxes if he was still a RFer.

That said, if this was the move to make, who takes over Kopech's role in the pen for THIS season?

[Chisoxfn]

1 minute ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Basically. If you can find one that fits. IOW, it's not a long list of potentials for this type of deal.

This is about as close to what it would take for Kopech. Except that isn't Yelich a below average LFer, not a RFer at this point in his career? I'd think he'd check a lot of boxes if he was still a RFer.

That said, if this was the move to make, who takes over Kopech's role in the pen for THIS season?

To all your points - I have a pretty high degree of confidence Kopech isn't going anywhere. The only way he gets moved is for another premium player who is cost-controlled, but beyond that, the only way I see the Sox moving him is if they had some form of long-term concern and there is zero reason to think that.  And in terms of his on the field performance, I was super high on Kopech and even I couldn't have predicted he would be THIS electric after so little major league action.  

The main risk with Kopech is just him staying healthy.  If he's healthy - he's going to be elite.  

[Two-Gun Pete]

Just now, Chisoxfn said:

To all your points - I have a pretty high degree of confidence Kopech isn't going anywhere. The only way he gets moved is for another premium player who is cost-controlled, but beyond that, the only way I see the Sox moving him is if they had some form of long-term concern and there is zero reason to think that.  And in terms of his on the field performance, I was super high on Kopech and even I couldn't have predicted he would be THIS electric after so little major league action.  

The main risk with Kopech is just him staying healthy.  If he's healthy - he's going to be elite.  

Oh, I agree with all of this as well. I doubt that Kopech would be moved.

The thought exercise is this:

1. It is clear that this roster (without Robert & Eloy) is probably not better than the yankmees in the AL, and certainly not better than LAD in the NL

2. If an addition is undertook (i.e. subtracting Kopech from this roster, and a bat added) would THAT roster be better than the yankmees or LAD?

To me, I say "no." I don't think that Yelich, or really, ANY addition, while subtracting Kopech from this roster is enough to be a WS favorite. Without Kopech in the pen, I think this team is not good enough.  Without Robert/Eloy, I don't think the offense is potent enough.

So, I think the right move is to tread water with the #5/6/7 OFers (Leury/Hamilton/Vaughn) until the #4/1/2 OFers (Engel/Robert/Eloy) get back. 

[caulfield12]

8 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Oh, I agree with all of this as well. I doubt that Kopech would be moved.

The thought exercise is this:

1. It is clear that this roster (without Robert & Eloy) is probably not better than the yankmees in the AL, and certainly not better than LAD in the NL

2. If an addition is undertook (i.e. subtracting Kopech from this roster, and a bat added) would THAT roster be better than the yankmees or LAD?

To me, I say "no." I don't think that Yelich, or really, ANY addition, while subtracting Kopech from this roster is enough to be a WS favorite. Without Kopech in the pen, I think this team is not good enough.  Without Robert/Eloy, I don't think the offense is potent enough.

So, I think the right move is to tread water with the #5/6/7 OFers (Leury/Hamilton/Vaughn) until the #4/1/2 OFers (Engel/Robert/Eloy) get back. 

Just an example of the type of player (4-5 years ago in case of Yelich) you’d expect back in return for Kopech.

With Bellinger back, Dodgers will quickly be back at top.  SD has way too many injuries, and Snell has massively underperformed.

Yankees, it’s all about Severino, the health of their volatile starting pitching...and keeping their best offensive players in the lineup.  Still quite vulnerable, maybe 2/3 against Rays gets them jump started again.

Edited June 3, 2021 by caulfield12

[Chisoxfn]

9 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Oh, I agree with all of this as well. I doubt that Kopech would be moved.

The thought exercise is this:

1. It is clear that this roster (without Robert & Eloy) is probably not better than the yankmees in the AL, and certainly not better than LAD in the NL

2. If an addition is undertook (i.e. subtracting Kopech from this roster, and a bat added) would THAT roster be better than the yankmees or LAD?

To me, I say "no." I don't think that Yelich, or really, ANY addition, while subtracting Kopech from this roster is enough to be a WS favorite. Without Kopech in the pen, I think this team is not good enough.  Without Robert/Eloy, I don't think the offense is potent enough.

So, I think the right move is to tread water with the #5/6/7 OFers (Leury/Hamilton/Vaughn) until the #4/1/2 OFers (Engel/Robert/Eloy) get back. 

I tend to agree with you. To me if I make a trade deadline move, it is focused on really making sure I have enough firepower to survive the dog days of summer and make the playoffs. Whether it is a short-term upgrade to buy time/hedge bets with Robert/Jimenez or you are adding an extra reliever to just provide some depth.  I don't see any need to go out and make a "splash" move at the deadline with this club as I think they should be in a great position to make a run in October. 

This could all change if they suffered a big injury to their rotation - at that point - the name of the game would potentially change and maybe than you are looking at finding a bigger name starting pitcher at the deadline.  So in general - I don't see the Sox dangling any of their better prospects during the deadline.   

[Two-Gun Pete]

14 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Just an example of the type of player (4-5 years ago in case of Yelich) you’d expect back in return for Kopech.

With Bellinger back, Dodgers will quickly be back at top.  SD has way too many injuries, and Snell has massively underperformed.

Yankees, it’s all about Severino, the health of their volatile starting pitching...and keeping their best offensive players in the lineup.  Still quite vulnerable, maybe 2/3 against Rays gets them jump started again.

Agreed.

The amount of pants-pissing about the incredible pile of OF injuries, leading some to want to make a panic buy is stoopud.

Yes, I think the yankmees are better than their record. And to your point, when they get healthy and right, look out. Tampa's also right there with anyone else in the AL.

And yes, LAD will be even better, once they get healthy.

 

But this roster, regardless of who they can realistically add at this point, while subtracting anything from the MLB roster, probably isn't as good as others. Now, IF TLR managed the BP like a modern manager would, AND if there was someone who could provide ~80% of what Kopech can, then maybe it could work.

IOW, if Hendriks was used like Hader is, and there was another pitcher down on the farm to take Kopech's place, maybe Kopech-for-Yelich MIGHT work. I kinda doubt it, though. 

[caulfield12]

1 minute ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Agreed.

The amount of pants-pissing about the incredible pile of OF injuries, leading some to want to make a panic buy is stoopud.

Yes, I think the yankmees are better than their record. And to your point, when they get healthy and right, look out. Tampa's also right there with anyone else in the AL.

And yes, LAD will be even better, once they get healthy.

 

But this roster, regardless of who they can realistically add at this point, while subtracting anything from the MLB roster, probably isn't as good as others. Now, IF TLR managed the BP like a modern manager would, AND if there was someone who could provide ~80% of what Kopech can, then maybe it could work.

IOW, if Hendriks was used like Hader is, and there was another pitcher down on the farm to take Kopech's place, maybe Kopech-for-Yelich MIGHT work. I kinda doubt it, though. 

Other than Vera and Kelly, we’re at least two years away from an impact starting pitcher.  Stievers and Lambert types just aren’t good enough.

[Tnetennba]

In a vacuum, there might be a few players I would part with Kopech for.  But for an org that refuses to pay top dollar for high end pitching there is just no way I can let a piece like Kopech go.

["The Kids Can Play"]

On 6/1/2021 at 9:53 PM, Green Line said:

It doesn't have to be a 1-year fix, thats not what I meant.  He would being in a huge haul.

Kopech isn't being traded. Hahn loves him and has been quoted as saying he is a big part of the Sox future as a premium starter in the rotation.

Plus Kopech was already brought here on a so called "haul" trade. Hahn's first big trade of the rebuild was trading Chris Sale to Boston to get Kopech and Moncada and three other prospects that didn't work out. 

Kopech has too much talent and upside for Hahn to give up on him, especially since Kopech has missed the last 2.5 years due to Tommy John surgery and Covid Opt-out. 

 

["The Kids Can Play"]

3 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

Wait people want to trade Kopech?  Are you kidding me?  Dude could very well be the best SP in the game in a year or two.  

The good news is the only person who matters here is Rick Hahn. There is no way he is trading Kopech. Hahn has publicly stated that Kopech is a huge part of the White Sox starting rotation in the future years as a premium starter. 

[35thstreetswarm]

15 minutes ago, "The Kids Can Play" said:

The good news is the only person who matters here is Rick Hahn. There is no way he is trading Kopech. Hahn has publicly stated that Kopech is a huge part of the White Sox starting rotation in the future years as a premium starter. 

Thanks.  Thanks.  Thanks a lot.  Thanks.

[oldsox]

4 hours ago, Quin said:

This is the only article I can find: https://www.fishstripes.com/2018/1/8/16861050/exploring-a-christian-yelich-trade-with-the-chicago-white-sox-miami-marlins

So, basically rumors the Sox were in on him and that the Sox had a good war chest to choose from.

Yes, I remember reading that article back whenever.  Jeter did not get much for Yelich.

 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

2 hours ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Oh, I agree with all of this as well. I doubt that Kopech would be moved.

The thought exercise is this:

1. It is clear that this roster (without Robert & Eloy) is probably not better than the yankmees in the AL, and certainly not better than LAD in the NL

2. If an addition is undertook (i.e. subtracting Kopech from this roster, and a bat added) would THAT roster be better than the yankmees or LAD?

To me, I say "no." I don't think that Yelich, or really, ANY addition, while subtracting Kopech from this roster is enough to be a WS favorite. Without Kopech in the pen, I think this team is not good enough.  Without Robert/Eloy, I don't think the offense is potent enough.

So, I think the right move is to tread water with the #5/6/7 OFers (Leury/Hamilton/Vaughn) until the #4/1/2 OFers (Engel/Robert/Eloy) get back. 

Wait, why aren't the White Sox better than the Yankees?

The Yankees are like the 5th best team in the AL.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Look at Ray Ray Run

["The Kids Can Play"]

On 6/1/2021 at 9:27 PM, Green Line said:

I'm thinking about World Series this season, not worried about next season.  Sox are a WS contender and another bat will provide a bigger impact than Kopech this season.  Idk who - will need to research.

You obviously haven't been paying attention to all the moves Hahn has made over the last few years of this rebuild. 

FYI, not only are the Sox all in to potentially win a WS this year, but Hahn has them set up for many more years to come. 

Per Spotrac, a site that list all salary contracts and details for all sports, the following Sox players are set to hit Free Agency in the following years:

Abreu - '23
Giolito - '24
Grandal - '24
Anderson - '25
Hendricks - '25
Moncada - '26
Heuer - '26
Kopech - '26
Cease - '26
Jimenez - '27
Madrigal - '27
Crochet - '27
Bummer - '27
Robert - '28

IDK, but it sure seems like we can go for the WS for a few more years.

The only free agents after 2021 are Lynn, Rodon and Mercedes.

Save your research my friend, Kopech isn't being traded.

[caulfield12]

46 minutes ago, "The Kids Can Play" said:

The good news is the only person who matters here is Rick Hahn. There is no way he is trading Kopech. Hahn has publicly stated that Kopech is a huge part of the White Sox starting rotation in the future years as a premium starter. 

You mean TLR?

[caulfield12]

5 minutes ago, "The Kids Can Play" said:

You obviously haven't been paying attention to all the moves Hahn has made over the last few years of this rebuild. 

FYI, not only are the Sox all in to potentially win a WS this year, but Hahn has them set up for many more years to come. 

Per Spotrac, a site that list all salary contracts and details for all sports, the following Sox players are set to hit Free Agency in the following years:

Abreu - '23
Giolito - '24
Grandal - '24
Anderson - '25
Hendricks - '25
Moncada - '26
Heuer - '26
Kopech - '26
Cease - '26
Jimenez - '27
Madrigal - '27
Crochet - '27
Bummer - '27
Robert - '28

IDK, but it sure seems like we can go for the WS for a few more years.

The only free agents after 2021 are Lynn, Rodon and Mercedes.

Save your research my friend, Kopech isn't being traded.

Mercedes is under control for a lot longer than that.  He’s currently pre-arbitration.  Will likely see Eaton departing, as well.

Edited June 3, 2021 by caulfield12

["The Kids Can Play"]

2 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

You mean TLR?

No! I assume that was humor! lol 

I meant Hahn all day long! Hahn has been in charge of this team and rebuild the entire time except for the one absurd time when TLR stepped in. TLR had to erase his guilty pathetic feelings for 35 years ago, when he didn't have the common sense to fire Hawk Harrelson and not allow Hawk to fire TLR back then. Hahn is clueless and senile and has no clue on the ability of his players or what and how to sign them. 

["The Kids Can Play"]

9 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Mercedes is under control for a lot longer than that.  He’s currently pre-arbitration.  Will likely see Eaton departing, as well.

According to Spotrac, Mercedes signed a 1 year/$570,500 contract with the Chicago White Sox In 2021, Mercedes will earn a base salary of $570,500, while carrying a total salary of $570,500. At Spotrac it shows him being n UFA after this season. I'm not saying you couldn't be right and perhaps they made a mistake, but they are usually right on with their facts. 

I pray Eaton departs!