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SoxBlanco

2021 Plan for Kopech and Crochet

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Agreed in this day and age, just not all of them are pulled mid-start and identified with a forearm injury. I'm just assuming he's injured by May and out until Summer 2022 in my mind. 

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Norm MacDonald is probably the greatest most underappreciated comedian of all time.  

I remember way back when that Comedy Central put on a pilot called "Back to Norm" which I hoped would get picked up.  Of course it didn't.  :(  I thought it was great.

I really can't stand the shitty shock value comedians / bar trash comedy that is just like bullies telling jokes, etc. like Louis CK, etc.  Ron White is a hack, etc.

OTOH always loved Bob Odenkirk and David Cross's stuff, loved Steven Wright, love Norm MacDonald, those guys.  

Edited by YourWhatHurts
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After reading the posts about Crochet here, it is apparent that many fans believe his chances for injury in 2021 are great.   If  the speculation about Crochet's susceptibility to injury becomes an unfortunate reality,  we are talking  about 2023 before he come back.  Watching him pitch does make one feel that his arm is a ticking time bomb, although Chris Sale lasted several years despite similar speculation.

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13 minutes ago, tray said:

After reading the posts about Crochet here, it is apparent that many fans believe his chances for injury in 2021 are great.   If  the speculation about Crochet's susceptibility to injury becomes an unfortunate reality,  we are talking  about 2023 before he come back.  Watching him pitch does make one feel that his arm is a ticking time bomb, although Chris Sale lasted several years despite similar speculation.

If he got injured in the beginning on 2021 (I assume we would know within the first month), he would be back for the majority of 2022.

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On 12/19/2020 at 10:17 AM, Blackout Friday said:

Bullpen for crochet now and forever. Cap kopech at 110 innings in AAA and shut him down for the year. 

Whoever laughed at this is in for a tough reality check. 

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If Crochet does not start in the minors as a SP, he will never be a SP.. For this reason, he has to start in the minors.  Too good of an arm to force to the bullpen without even trying. He can be up in the playoffs when we need him most.

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11 minutes ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

If Crochet does not start in the minors as a SP, he will never be a SP.. For this reason, he has to start in the minors.  Too good of an arm to force to the bullpen without even trying. He can be up in the playoffs when we need him most.

While this may be true, the Sox seem determined to use him in the majors next year as a reliever.

Edited by Chicago White Sox

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1 hour ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

If Crochet does not start in the minors as a SP, he will never be a SP.. For this reason, he has to start in the minors.  Too good of an arm to force to the bullpen without even trying. He can be up in the playoffs when we need him most.

Why can’t he start in the majors as a guy out of the pen pitching 2-3 innings at a time? Then try to mix in some starts where he can go 4 or 5. Do that for the entire year with a certain amount of innings as a target, and then make him a starter right out of the gate in 2022. 

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19 minutes ago, SoxBlanco said:

Why can’t he start in the majors as a guy out of the pen pitching 2-3 innings at a time? Then try to mix in some starts where he can go 4 or 5. Do that for the entire year with a certain amount of innings as a target, and then make him a starter right out of the gate in 2022. 

Theres a difference between getting him up to 100 innings by throwing 2-3 innings twice a week and pitching him in the minors and getting him up to 5 innings a start and then majors at the end of the year for bullpen.  he also will be dominant in the bullpen and then you wouldn't be able to move him back to SP. Ala Josh Hader.

Edited by Squirmin' for Yermin

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6 hours ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

Sad if it's anything but just August/September

Said it before and I’ll say it again for the new year, they will Papelbon him. They may want him to start, but they won’t be able to afford to develop him as a starter.

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11 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Said it before and I’ll say it again for the new year, they will Papelbon him. They may want him to start, but they won’t be able to afford to develop him as a starter.

How can they afford not to develop him as a starter ? Most of his value lies in him becoming a starter. The Sox want him to start. Crochet sees himself as a starter in probably much the same way Rodon does. A bunch of years and injuries later Rodon was non-tendered. He had plenty of chances to start in non Covid years and either couldn't perform consistently or kept getting injured.

Carlos Rodon had 49 starts and 346 IP in his 3 years of college. Crochet had 36 starts and 132 IP. Rodon was a stud and consensus top draft pick. Crochet was a dud as far as his college stats go and his 3rd year he was injured after 1 start and was drafted high due to his stuff. Rodon's college WHIP showed that he could actually find the strike zone and while Crochet had a pretty high WHIP.

Once Rodon became a pro all of a sudden facing more disciplined hitters his WHIP shot up and continued to plagued him throughout his career with the Sox.

The Sox have very little information about Crochet compared to Rodon coming out of college.

I think it is very easy to get excited about Crochet because of his blazing fastball and slider seen during his brief 6 inning stint with the Sox. But it was just 6 innings. He will have his trials and tribulations like any other pitcher and certainly will be tested by hitters who may just decide to wait and see if he can consistently find the strike zone.

If it is your fear that he won't be given a chance to develop as a starter I think it's already pretty clear that they know how valuable he would be as a starter over being a reliever. However he also has immediate value as a reliever because he isn't close to becoming a starting pitcher due to inconsistent college stats and injury.

Plan 1 is to build up his innings and see if he can throw strikes and stay healthy. He may do it in the minors or with the Sox. I think there is a high probability he will start the season with the Sox but that doesn't mean he won't be sent back down if he is ineffective. The good news is that he has pitched so little that Covid shouldn't have much of an impact on his early career unless the minors are shut down again.

If he becomes a reliever it will only be because he just can't handle the workload or maintain his stuff as a starter. At that point it would be in his best interest to become a RP . The Sox will just have to find a balance between what's in his and the team's best interest. Right now his best interest and teams are aligned. He has to throw fewer innings and not be overused and that means just as Getz and myself have said. He will pitch as a RP and perhaps get a handful of starts in 2021 while we see how his arm responds.

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It sounds like they're going to try to middle him which is the worst thing they can do for his long term development.  They need to decide if he is a starter or reliever and develop him accordingly.  I think they should develop him as a starter but I would much rather they just make him a full time reliever rather than  yoyoing him between the two roles. Rushing his development to get value out of him now is a recipe for disaster and this dude is too special to fuck with like that.  

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My guess is that the Sox would not have picked Crochet  if they thought he would be a bullpen pitcher. 

If Crochet injures his arm and needs TJ surgery after limited action, there will be a lot of what-ifs about  why they drafted him in the first round.

 

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18 hours ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

If Crochet does not start in the minors as a SP, he will never be a SP.. For this reason, he has to start in the minors.  Too good of an arm to force to the bullpen without even trying. He can be up in the playoffs when we need him most.

I don't think this is true at all. He needs innings, period . Using words like "never" ring hollow to make a point. However the Sox cannot just ignore that he may be able to help the team win a World Series this year. I highly doubt they would use him as a closer when they have Bummer and may get even more options for that role. I think the Sox will find a clearly defined role for him that best allows him to get innings while not over working his arm. They will probably have him start innings rather than come into games with men on base though that would be very tempting when you need a K .

The Sox don't have a history of using an opener but that may change under Katz . LaRussa has no history of using an opener so we will have to wait and see on that. I do think that when he is in the minors this year and, I think he will be at some point, he will probably start with some kind of pitch count that slowly rises.

Just remember that he is still young and not guaranteed to be a stud come playoff time . He just shouldn't be starting all year and then thrust into a relief role late in the season and make it look easy . If he is going to pitch in relief late in the season he is going to have to pitch in relief in the minors too.

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4 minutes ago, tray said:

My guess is that the Sox would not have picked Crochet  if they thought he would be a bullpen pitcher. 

If Crochet injures his arm and needs TJ surgery after limited action, there will be a lot of what-ifs about  why they drafted him in the first round.

 

Why?  Nearly every pitcher on the staff has had TJ.  Why would Crochet be treated differently?

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On 12/30/2020 at 12:39 PM, YourWhatHurts said:

Norm MacDonald is probably the greatest most underappreciated comedian of all time.  

I remember way back when that Comedy Central put on a pilot called "Back to Norm" which I hoped would get picked up.  Of course it didn't.  :(  I thought it was great.

I really can't stand the shitty shock value comedians / bar trash comedy that is just like bullies telling jokes, etc. like Louis CK, etc.  Ron White is a hack, etc.

OTOH always loved Bob Odenkirk and David Cross's stuff, loved Steven Wright, love Norm MacDonald, those guys.  

Bob Odenkirk is tied with Jim Thome for the nicest celebrity I've ever met, in person.  I don't like bothering famous people out in public, but way back in the day, when I was working as a route driver for a spring water company, I got assigned to deliver to both the set and the office for the movie "Let's go to Prison".  I didn't expect to see Bob Odenkirk while I was there, but when I saw him in the office like ten feet from where I was setting up a water cooler, I had to dork out to him over my love for "Mr. Show".  Not only was he not annoyed that the water guy was bugging him on the set of his film, but he got up and came over and enthusiastically engaged me in conversation for like ten minutes.  Awesome, awesome guy (at least on that day).  Whenever I see his name mentioned I feel compelled to mention that.  

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5 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

Why?  Nearly every pitcher on the staff has had TJ.  Why would Crochet be treated differently?

It feels like every pitcher in professional baseball gets TJ at some point, these days.  I was actually happy when I first heard that Cease had "gotten his out of the way" years ago.

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

It sounds like they're going to try to middle him which is the worst thing they can do for his long term development.  They need to decide if he is a starter or reliever and develop him accordingly.  I think they should develop him as a starter but I would much rather they just make him a full time reliever rather than  yoyoing him between the two roles. Rushing his development to get value out of him now is a recipe for disaster and this dude is too special to fuck with like that.  

I don't know if that is the worst thing they can do for his development. Crochet has no history of extended success as a starter. Nor does he have any history of staying healthy while he is effective. Each pitcher's history should define what is best for his development. I'm not even sure if you can say he is being rushed. He has shown the ability to get big leaguers out and look dominant doing it but the sample size was ultra small . His arm is a mystery, his career to this point , an enigma.

They are paying him to get value out of him. That's how it works . He is a laborer with a golden arm . He is no good to them if his arm blows up in the minors . If there is already a high probability that his arm will not last then you baby him and maybe he can help you win a World Series as a RP while you slowly build up his arm and do their best to keep him healthy. If his arm blows up it will probably make the Sox look bad no matter what they do.

Also remember Crochet has some choice in this, unlike most laborers, and if he isn't convinced how the Sox are using him is in his best interest he can discuss it with them.

Edited by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

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I don't agree,  Once he is in the system they should evaluate him for the role he has the best chance to excel in.  How he was used as an amatuer does not factor in.  Getz said they're going to use him as a reliever and try to mix in some starts.  That's middling him.  They should put him in a role and keep him there.  Pitching in the big leagues is hard enough there is no reason to put extra pressure on a 22 yr old to train for 2 different roles.  

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47 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

It sounds like they're going to try to middle him which is the worst thing they can do for his long term development.  They need to decide if he is a starter or reliever and develop him accordingly.  I think they should develop him as a starter but I would much rather they just make him a full time reliever rather than  yoyoing him between the two roles. Rushing his development to get value out of him now is a recipe for disaster and this dude is too special to fuck with like that.  

I agree with this 100%. He should be in Birmingham starting, 

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Just now, Y2Jimmy0 said:

I agree with this 100%. He should be in Birmingham starting, 

They ruined Rodon and Fulmer by rushing them to the big leagues.  It's the White Sox way. They always want to open the present and play with the new shiny thing rather than taking the time for him to develop into the best pitcher he can be.  Reinsdorf loves his cheap pitchers.  

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1 hour ago, sullythered said:

It feels like every pitcher in professional baseball gets TJ at some point, these days.  I was actually happy when I first heard that Cease had "gotten his out of the way" years ago.

Assuming that is the expectation how does that impact how he is handled ? Let him start in the Minors and pitch until he blows it up or hold him back, using him as a reliever and delaying the inevitable ?

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1 hour ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

I don't agree,  Once he is in the system they should evaluate him for the role he has the best chance to excel in.  How he was used as an amatuer does not factor in.  Getz said they're going to use him as a reliever and try to mix in some starts.  That's middling him.  They should put him in a role and keep him there.  Pitching in the big leagues is hard enough there is no reason to put extra pressure on a 22 yr old to train for 2 different roles.  

We will just have to disagree . If they evaluate him for his best chance to excel that would easily be as a RP. How he was used as an amateur makes a lot of difference. Yes he will physically mature a little more but if he has never shown the ability to pitch effectively as a starter as an amatuer why would anyone think he could do it as a pro ? Again Crochet has some say in this.He might even think that the Sox pulling him at the 1st sign of trouble in the playoff game was an over reaction. But even he doesn't know what best for his career but it should be his choice as long as he can be honest about himself. He may want to start . He may want to do exactly as the Sox say. Not you ,not me, not him, knows that middling him is the worst thing for him if one can even define "middling".

Getz was not a pitcher. Perhaps what he said doesn't come to pass. I would be shocked if we see very many times that Crochet will pitch more than 3 innings at a time either as a starter or a RP this season. . I also highly doubt that he will jump back and forth between roles . If he starts a few he will be likely be treated  and prepared much like a RP, only 3 innings max early in the season but more likely 1 or 2 innings. All these fears about how he will be treated or developed are baseless right now.

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2 hours ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

It sounds like they're going to try to middle him which is the worst thing they can do for his long term development.  They need to decide if he is a starter or reliever and develop him accordingly.  I think they should develop him as a starter but I would much rather they just make him a full time reliever rather than  yoyoing him between the two roles. Rushing his development to get value out of him now is a recipe for disaster and this dude is too special to fuck with like that.  

I don't think its bad for the first year as he has thrown so few innings that he will be on a low innings count. 

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