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2021 Plan for Kopech and Crochet

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1 hour ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

They ruined Rodon and Fulmer by rushing them to the big leagues.  It's the White Sox way. They always want to open the present and play with the new shiny thing rather than taking the time for him to develop into the best pitcher he can be.  Reinsdorf loves his cheap pitchers.  

Well talking about ruining pitchers will certainly get you the sympathy vote. Poor Crochet is going to be ruined by the Sox the same way they ruined Fulmer and Rodon. Somehow Sale wasn't ruined. Other pitchers get treated the same way. Some make it some don't.

Maybe it was that Fulmer and Rodon just didn't have what it takes to pitch at the very top of their chosen profession .  Easy to point fingers when things go wrong and hindsight is 20/20 .  So start him in Birmingham then what ? Do you just ignore that he can dominate big league hitters in short stints? Do you leave him starting in the minors until he reaches a comfortable innings limit and never pitch with the Sox in 2021 ? Is it all about his development ? What if he is itching to want to help the Sox in any role he can towards the end of season. Do you tell him no, we know whats best for you, and risk alienating him like an over protective parent ?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

They ruined Rodon and Fulmer by rushing them to the big leagues.  It's the White Sox way. They always want to open the present and play with the new shiny thing rather than taking the time for him to develop into the best pitcher he can be.  Reinsdorf loves his cheap pitchers.  

Rodon was never going to have good control or health with that dumbest follow through he had. They didn't rush him as he could get away with the control issues in the minors but needed to learn at the MLB level.

Edited by ptatc
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7 minutes ago, ptatc said:

I don't think its bad for the first year as he has thrown so few innings that he will be on a low innings count. 

Which is exactly what I have been saying. He just needs innings and he can get innings either as a starter or as a RP but prepare him as a RP.  We shouldn't get hung up on the terms starter or reliever right now as long as he is prepared in the same way for whatever he does. Don't pitch him on consecutive days at all this year. Get his legs strong. Maybe even pitch him every 5th day but allow him the chance to pitch multiple innings each time 2 innings, 3 , 4 or perhaps even 5  slowly over the year. It doesn't matter if he starts or comes into the game in the 2nd through 7th inning. As the year goes on at some point you let him pitch every 4th day but no more long outing maybe 2 or 3 innings max. Then maybe every 3rd day and shorter outings. Treat his year like a bell curve ramp him up to the top of the bell toward mid season then slowly ramp him down towards the end. when he might be able to give you an inning in some late season games and the playoffs.

Is this a way they could treat a pitcher like Crochet ? Or am I way off base on a plan like this ? Maybe a slower build up to 5 innings and ramp him down past mid season ?

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12 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Which is exactly what I have been saying. He just needs innings and he can get innings either as a starter or as a RP but prepare him as a RP.  We shouldn't get hung up on the terms starter or reliever right now as long as he is prepared in the same way for whatever he does. Don't pitch him on consecutive days at all this year. Get his legs strong. Maybe even pitch him every 5th day but allow him the chance to pitch multiple innings each time 2 innings, 3 , 4 or perhaps even 5  slowly over the year. It doesn't matter if he starts or comes into the game in the 2nd through 7th inning. As the year goes on at some point you let him pitch every 4th day but no more long outing maybe 2 or 3 innings max. Then maybe every 3rd day and shorter outings. Treat his year like a bell curve ramp him up to the top of the bell toward mid season then slowly ramp him down towards the end. when he might be able to give you an inning in some late season games and the playoffs.

Is this a way they could treat a pitcher like Crochet ? Or am I way off base on a plan like this ? Maybe a slower build up to 5 innings and ramp him down past mid season ?

I agree there are many ways it can be done. It could be in the MLB pen. It could be in the minors starting with piggy backs or very limited innings. It could be starting in the minors then reliever in the MLB at the end. It is a tough situation because of his lack of starting in college and the minimal season in his draft year. His situation is very different than Sale or most other pitchers in this regard.

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28 minutes ago, ptatc said:

I agree there are many ways it can be done. It could be in the MLB pen. It could be in the minors starting with piggy backs or very limited innings. It could be starting in the minors then reliever in the MLB at the end. It is a tough situation because of his lack of starting in college and the minimal season in his draft year. His situation is very different than Sale or most other pitchers in this regard.

Exactly which is why I was trying to tell Harold that his amateur career mattered when he said it didn't . Most of us know so little about how a pitcher prepares and even if some of us have pitched at high levels our situations are not comparable to Crochet's. Communication with him seems ultra vital. Building up innings is a tricky thing and there are no easy answers. You have seen up close and personal how things like this can be handled. It's not in his best interest to try to throw or pitch through pain yet you do have to keep throwing and using your arm be it long toss, short toss or side sessions but being very selective on how often and when to use max effort.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, sullythered said:

Bob Odenkirk is tied with Jim Thome for the nicest celebrity I've ever met, in person.  I don't like bothering famous people out in public, but way back in the day, when I was working as a route driver for a spring water company, I got assigned to deliver to both the set and the office for the movie "Let's go to Prison".  I didn't expect to see Bob Odenkirk while I was there, but when I saw him in the office like ten feet from where I was setting up a water cooler, I had to dork out to him over my love for "Mr. Show".  Not only was he not annoyed that the water guy was bugging him on the set of his film, but he got up and came over and enthusiastically engaged me in conversation for like ten minutes.  Awesome, awesome guy (at least on that day).  Whenever I see his name mentioned I feel compelled to mention that.  

I remember not meeting him.  I sent him a couple messages to a website many years ago asking if he wanted to go to a Brewers game with me and a buddy and get pretty hammered in the parking lot (sitting up in the nosebleeds of course).  He'd didn't respond.  This is the only time I have ever messaged a celebrity or really anyone I didn't know o have a business-related reason to, but I tried just because he seemed cool enough to perhaps actually do something like that, and I wanted to see.

Mr. Show is pound for pound, sketch for sketch, the greatest comedy creation in the history of mankind by my estimation.  I haven't watched any of the DVDs in years but I know if I put any one of them in I'd go right back to laughing my ass off again.

Also I want to say that they did a Mr Show tour in the US many years ago and I saw them in Chicago.  This was I think several years after the show officially ended.  You see that also?

Edited by YourWhatHurts

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8 hours ago, ptatc said:

Rodon was never going to have good control or health with that dumbest follow through he had. They didn't rush him as he could get away with the control issues in the minors but needed to learn at the MLB level.

Not sure that is true though. They used to teach finish across, bend forward and scrape the ground in pitching but nowadays many good pitchers stay upright and recoil in the follow through. 

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10 hours ago, Dominikk85 said:

Not sure that is true though. They used to teach finish across, bend forward and scrape the ground in pitching but nowadays many good pitchers stay upright and recoil in the follow through. 

His was worse than most. He didnt even use the spin that many use now. He just abruptly stopped straight up. I said it when they drafted him. There is zero way to dissipate the forces of the pitch in his motion which can lead to both. 

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Posted (edited)

To me it's really straight forward how to handle both of these guys. Health permitting, this is what I would do. 

Kopech - Hasn't pitched (outside of Spring Training) in 2.5 years when the season starts. If the season starts on time, start him in the minors, make him prove he can throw strikes. You likely gain a service year by doing what makes sense given his injury, development and the current roster construction (Sox will add another starter).

Crochet - Sox seem set on him making him a starter. Start him in Winston Salem as a starter. Let him pitch to around 100 innings as a starter in the minors. Call him up for the stretch run to be a bullpen stud. This way, you allow a guy who has never built up a significant starter workload to get a sniff of the routine. You max his service time. You get high leverage use out of him. You protect his arm putting him on a nice development path. 

The Sale path for Crochet may make sense but...Sale is an exception to the rule. Not the rule. Sale is a freak. Sale averaged almost 100 innings his last two years at FGCU as their Friday starter. Crochet has 12 starts in his collegiate career. He has thrown less than 140 innings in NCAA/pro ball.

Also, just want to get ahead of this. Yes, I mentioned service time. Yes, I want to win. No, I don't get anything out of Reinsdorf saving money. This is a business. The decision makers operate within the constraints and rules of the CBA so my thinking will encompass these rules. 

Edited by raBBit
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14 hours ago, YourWhatHurts said:

I remember not meeting him.  I sent him a couple messages to a website many years ago asking if he wanted to go to a Brewers game with me and a buddy and get pretty hammered in the parking lot (sitting up in the nosebleeds of course).  He'd didn't respond.  This is the only time I have ever messaged a celebrity or really anyone I didn't know o have a business-related reason to, but I tried just because he seemed cool enough to perhaps actually do something like that, and I wanted to see.

Mr. Show is pound for pound, sketch for sketch, the greatest comedy creation in the history of mankind by my estimation.  I haven't watched any of the DVDs in years but I know if I put any one of them in I'd go right back to laughing my ass off again.

Also I want to say that they did a Mr Show tour in the US many years ago and I saw them in Chicago.  This was I think several years after the show officially ended.  You see that also?

I did see the Mr. Show live show.  I wanna say they had to call it something different, because like you said, it was years after Mr. Show aired, but I could be wrong about that.  I remember laughing my ass off, though.

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On 1/1/2021 at 10:33 AM, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

How can they afford not to develop him as a starter ? Most of his value lies in him becoming a starter. The Sox want him to start. Crochet sees himself as a starter in probably much the same way Rodon does.

 

On 1/1/2021 at 10:57 AM, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I don't think this is true at all. He needs innings, period . Using words like "never" ring hollow to make a point. However the Sox cannot just ignore that he may be able to help the team win a World Series this year. I highly doubt they would use him as a closer when they have Bummer and may get even more options for that role.

I didn't have time to reply to these yesterday, but the question you asked in the first post is answered in your second post. How could they afford to not have him develop as a starter? Because "he may be able to help the team win a world series this year". That's exactly what could undermine any plans in the first, if you allow it.

That's why the Papelbon example is relevant. Papelbon was a really good closer for them in 2006, would have been rookie of the year had it not been for Verlander. The Red Sox spent the entire offseason saying that they were going to make him a starter, as did he. That lasted...through March, 0 games into the season (http://mlb.mlb.com/content/printer_friendly/mlb/y2007/m03/d22/c1854433.jsp). That was it for really seriously talking about him as a starter, and they won the 2007 World Series. 

If you are going to develop him as a starter, there is a strong chance it costs you some games next year. Running a rookie out in a starters role, when you have to sometimes let him struggle while working on secondary stuff? Or having him throw innings in the minor leagues? Both of those could cost them a win or two. 

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FYI, Fegan reported today Katz said it’s most likely Crochet is in the bullpen all season

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1 minute ago, fathom said:

FYI, Fegan reported today Katz said it’s most likely Crochet is in the bullpen all season

Sounds like Crochet is getting Papelbon-ed

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Just now, Jack Parkman said:

Sounds like Crochet is getting Papelbon-ed

Or Sale-ed or would it be Sold.

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, ptatc said:

Or Sale-ed or would it be Sold.

This is very different than Sale as he had proven that he could start, and pitched a bunch of innings in 2010 between college, the minors and the MLB bullpen. 

Crochet hasn't been a starter since HS. 

One can only hope it works that well. 

 

Edited by Jack Parkman

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

This is very different than Sale as he had proven that he could start, and pitched a bunch of innings in 2010 between college, the minors and the MLB bullpen. 

Crochet hasn't been a starter since HS. 

One can only hope it works that well. 

 

This is the whole reason to do it this way. He has a very limited number of innings this year due to the lack of innings in his past. Why not use them in the MLB pen.

The Papelbon comparison doesn't make sense as he was a starter in the minors. He could have started in the MLB but Boston chose not to. Crotchet could not be a starter this year for more than half a year before they shut him down.

Edited by ptatc

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3 minutes ago, ptatc said:

Or Sale-ed or would it be Sold.

Just to note - the Sale plan almost followed the Papelbon plan to the letter as well. The Red Sox announced Papelbon would be a starter, that didn't last through Spring Training. The White Sox announced Sale would be a starter in 2012, then his elbow acted up in April and they publicly said "Chris is back to the bullpen permanently". I believe this is the one where Sale turned over a table while fighting with Williams about staying in the rotation, and it took that to make them say ok. (In hindsight, maybe teaching Sale that the best way to deal with disagreements with this team was destroying property wasn't the best idea. Plus, having your pitcher have to insist he's a starter in order to literally save the franchise...also a pretty risky setup).

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2 minutes ago, ptatc said:

This is the whole reason to do it this way. He has a very limited number of innings this year due to the lack of innings in his past. Why not use them in the MLB pen.

Because he's likely to never leave the MLB pen.

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2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Just to note - the Sale plan almost followed the Papelbon plan to the letter as well. The Red Sox announced Papelbon would be a starter, that didn't last through Spring Training. The White Sox announced Sale would be a starter in 2012, then his elbow acted up in April and they publicly said "Chris is back to the bullpen permanently". I believe this is the one where Sale turned over a table while fighting with Williams about staying in the rotation, and it took that to make them say ok. (In hindsight, maybe teaching Sale that the best way to deal with disagreements with this team was destroying property wasn't the best idea. Plus, having your pitcher have to insist he's a starter in order to literally save the franchise...also a pretty risky setup).

Except for the fact that Papelbon could start whereas Crochet cannot at least not for more than half a season.

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2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Because he's likely to never leave the MLB pen.

It's possible.  But he would really need to be a reliever this year due to his very limited innings count this year.

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1 minute ago, ptatc said:

It's possible.  But he would really need to be a reliever this year due to his very limited innings count this year.

And what's going to happen in 2022 if he stays healthy? "We can't get him up to 150 innings since he only threw 55 last year so we need to use him in the bullpen, and LaRussa wants him as his closer, we can't afford to stretch him out we need him in the pen". I will guarantee you that conversation happens next year if he doesn't blow out his elbow.

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5 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

And what's going to happen in 2022 if he stays healthy? "We can't get him up to 150 innings since he only threw 55 last year so we need to use him in the bullpen, and LaRussa wants him as his closer, we can't afford to stretch him out we need him in the pen". I will guarantee you that conversation happens next year if he doesn't blow out his elbow.

In 2022 they make him a full time starter with a moderate innings limit.

Sure that conversation happens. It will be up to them to determine where he is more valuable.

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10 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

And what's going to happen in 2022 if he stays healthy? "We can't get him up to 150 innings since he only threw 55 last year so we need to use him in the bullpen, and LaRussa wants him as his closer, we can't afford to stretch him out we need him in the pen". I will guarantee you that conversation happens next year if he doesn't blow out his elbow.

Why can't he be a multi-inning reliever this year to get him up to 100 innings?

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3 minutes ago, SoxBlanco said:

Why can't he be a multi-inning reliever this year to get him up to 100 innings?

Chris Sale was in the same boat and threw 58. 

If he goes multiple innings sometime, they're going to want to rest him for longer afterwards, and if he's moved into a high leverage role of some sort, he won't be going multiple innings very often because you'll want him out there more to win games. 

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