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2021 Plan for Kopech and Crochet

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3 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I understand that, but it's really hard to balance the "win now"+player development aspect. Crochet's floor is a lights out closer, should he be able to stay healthy. 

I'm ok with him being in the bullpen this year, but in 2022 he needs to be stretched out. If they're not going to do that, then they should trade him for someone who can start. 

I think you are right, it's just that he is such an unknown due to never being a starter that the organization doesn't know if he can do it. They will know after this year. Ideally he does start next year but they will need to see how he handles even 70-80innings.

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23 minutes ago, fathom said:

Is this where I argue that if they do plan on him as a bullpen piece, then I wish they would use him as a main piece to get Castillo

Hey I'm finally not alone in thinking to trade him.

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Are we allowed to count guys who start the year in the minor leagues?

Sure and see how those teams handle their development. That is the key question here. How to take a pitcher who has never started or pitched many innings and turn him into a starter. As I've said both paths have advantages and disadvantages.

 

My point here is that just because he is in the pen this year doesn't preclude him from starting in the future.

Edited by ptatc

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3 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Hey I'm finally not alone in thinking to trade him.

It completely depends on what they're going to do with him. If they think he's a bullpen piece long-term, sell high. If they really think he can start, then hold on to him. 

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Just now, Jack Parkman said:

It completely depends on what they're going to do with him. If they think he's a bullpen piece long-term, sell high. If they really think he can start, then hold on to him. 

The problem is no one knows at this stage of his development. The only thing that is certain is that he was shut down twice last year due to injury, once in college and once in the MLB.

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3 minutes ago, ptatc said:

Sure and see how those teams handle their development. That is the key question here. How to take a pitcher who has never started or pitched many innings and turn him into a starter. As I've said both paths have advantages and disadvantages.

 

My point here is that just because he is in the pen this year doesn't preclude him from starting in the future.

No, but it makes it awful tough

At some point, turning him into a starter will involve sacrifice. Potentially losing games to stretch his arm out, to work on his secondary stuff. Definitely losing some games because we won't have a potentially strong reliever available. When are we going to make that sacrifice?

I assert that the answer is "not in the next several years", and that makes sense to me. Some other team will happily do that right now, put him in the minors for 2 years to work on thoose things and they would give up a premium player who could help the White Sox right now...more than a single reliever could.

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I feel like this is watching the sox fail the marshmallow test.

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He wasn't injured in college.  He was sore and they were protecting him conference play and the draft.  If they knew the season was going 4 weeks long he would have pitched from the get go.  

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3 minutes ago, bmags said:

I feel like this is watching the sox fail the marshmallow test.

The White Sox drafted a hall of famer in Chris Sale and thought they could replicate his path to success with Rodon, failed miserably and now are going to just shoot their shot again. It's very cool.

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2 hours ago, fathom said:

FYI, Fegan reported today Katz said it’s most likely Crochet is in the bullpen all season

This is so stupid.

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

It completely depends on what they're going to do with him. If they think he's a bullpen piece long-term, sell high. If they really think he can start, then hold on to him. 

I don't think it depends on what they are going to do with him. It depends on how other teams view him. I am in the minority because I view him as an injury waiting to happen, a guy far away from being a starter, a guy who may never be a starter , and if he is kept a guy who is more than likely a BP piece.

Most of Soxtalk views him as someone like Verlander, Sale, Steve Carlton .

If other MLB organizations view him like that, then in my eyes the best thing the Sox can do is use him to get  a valuable piece for the team going forward since Crochet will only contribute this year as a reliever and if injured may never become a starter.

 

Edited by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

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Just now, TomPickle said:

The White Sox drafted a hall of famer in Chris Sale and thought they could replicate his path to success with Rodon, failed miserably and now are going to just shoot their shot again. It's very cool.

I do think this is a little different. Rodon did get minors time. And I am at least open to idea that the uncertainty around the minors is making them plan differently, like this guy may be too valuable os they are choosing a path they have more control over.

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  1. Kopech - start in the minors to get confidence back and the extra control year then plop into the rotation.  Move to bullpen for playoffs.
  2. Crochet-  wait out his inevitable TJ, hope that it hits early on so the surgery can happen asap.

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1 minute ago, bmags said:

I do think this is a little different. Rodon did get minors time. And I am at least open to idea that the uncertainty around the minors is making them plan differently, like this guy may be too valuable os they are choosing a path they have more control over.

Dude, literally 8 starts, 34 total innings. And a couple of those outings were "rookie ball, waking arm back up after 2 months off post-college-season". 

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

He wasn't injured in college.  He was sore and they were protecting him conference play and the draft.  If they knew the season was going 4 weeks long he would have pitched from the get go.  

You usually are sore before you get injured in your shoulder . He still wasn't pitching and pitching is what pitchers do. If you can't pitch you can't develop, you can't be scouted you can't be relied upon, you can't help your team.

Edited by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

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1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

Dude, literally 8 starts, 34 total innings. And a couple of those outings were "rookie ball, waking arm back up after 2 months off post-college-season". 

So he did get minors time is what i'm getting out of this post.

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2 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

You usually are sore before you get injured in your shoulder . He still wasn't pitching and pitching is what pitchers do. If you can't pitch you can't develop, you can't be scouted you can't be relied upon.

wut

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Just now, bmags said:

So he did get minors time is what i'm getting out of this post.

So little that it's a rounding error.

The issue of minor league uncertainty is a good one, I will grant that as a good point But Rodon's minor league time was effectively zero, and in fact may well have contributed to his issues (no time to develop a 3rd pitch in game situations). Sale and Rodon both were called up "as soon as humanly possible" - Rodon's schedule was just determined by his agent being Boras and the extra year of control. 

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

wut

You're are making excuses for why he wasn't pitching calling shoulder soreness not an injury. Fine he wasn't injured . Let's say I see it your way. What difference does it make ? He still wasn't pitching . If you are not pitching how can you have any worth ? How can you become a better pitcher ? How can anyone know if you can start without being injured if you aren't on the mound doing it ?

Does that make it any more clear to you ?

Edited by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

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3 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

You're are making excuses for why he wasn't pitching calling shoulder soreness not an injury. Fine he wasn't injured . Let's say I see it your way. What difference does it make ? He still wasn't pitching . If you are not pitching how can you have any worth ? How can you become a better pitcher ? How can anyone know if you can start without being injured if you aren't on the mound doing it ?

Does that make it any more clear to you ?

Clear as mud.

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Just now, Balta1701 said:

So little that it's a rounding error.

The issue of minor league uncertainty is a good one, I will grant that as a good point But Rodon's minor league time was effectively zero, and in fact may well have contributed to his issues (no time to develop a 3rd pitch in game situations). Sale and Rodon both were called up "as soon as humanly possible" - Rodon's schedule was just determined by his agent being Boras and the extra year of control. 

Had he been garbage in those minor league starts he'd have stayed in minors though. He was striking out hitters at will but had control issues. Who better to work with him than cooper?

I'll be open to idea that they are responding to same pressures - I did say it was like watching them fail the marshmallow test. But he is much more of an unknown than sale/rodon were. I'm just open to idea that they may think going into season with a plan for him that has consistency will be better than sending him to an uncertain year in AAA only to switch back up to bullpen after he's pitched probably more than he did last year.

But it would help if someone would get some more on the record thoughts from the m which I'm sure will come in spring training. 

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23 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

No, but it makes it awful tough

At some point, turning him into a starter will involve sacrifice. Potentially losing games to stretch his arm out, to work on his secondary stuff. Definitely losing some games because we won't have a potentially strong reliever available. When are we going to make that sacrifice?

I assert that the answer is "not in the next several years", and that makes sense to me. Some other team will happily do that right now, put him in the minors for 2 years to work on thoose things and they would give up a premium player who could help the White Sox right now...more than a single reliever could.

This is all true. They just need to decide the path. Either way this year he is essentially going to be a reliever with his innings limit whether it be in themajors or minors. 

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1 minute ago, bmags said:

Had he been garbage in those minor league starts he'd have stayed in minors though. He was striking out hitters at will but had control issues. Who better to work with him than cooper?

I'll be open to idea that they are responding to same pressures - I did say it was like watching them fail the marshmallow test. But he is much more of an unknown than sale/rodon were. I'm just open to idea that they may think going into season with a plan for him that has consistency will be better than sending him to an uncertain year in AAA only to switch back up to bullpen after he's pitched probably more than he did last year.

But it would help if someone would get some more on the record thoughts from the m which I'm sure will come in spring training. 

See here's the thing...I think it would be far easier and better for him to say "we're going to start him as a starter in the minor leagues", work him as a starter in spring training, and then have it turn out that there's no AA season he can be sent to so you move him to the big league bullpen at that time. At the worst, you've stretched his arm out to do the occasional 3-4 inning burst that way.

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1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

See here's the thing...I think it would be far easier and better for him to say "we're going to start him as a starter in the minor leagues", work him as a starter in spring training, and then have it turn out that there's no AA season he can be sent to so you move him to the big league bullpen at that time. At the worst, you've stretched his arm out to do the occasional 3-4 inning burst that way.

There's nothing stopping them from having him as a starter in spring training in this plan.

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24 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

He wasn't injured in college.  He was sore and they were protecting him conference play and the draft.  If they knew the season was going 4 weeks long he would have pitched from the get go.  

Call it what you want. He was having enough issues that they decided not to pitch him. That is an injury in my view. If they thought he shouldn't pitch a full season with it, he shouldn't be pitching 4 weeks with it.

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