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6 minutes ago, fathom said:

He was 43/62 stealing bases in the minors. That’s way too many caught stealings for someone that’s supposed to be an amazing base runner. There were also numerous other outs on the bases he made, and many of us in the minor league threads referenced this.

Scotty Pods was 59 for 82 for the 2005 White Sox and he is legendary.

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22 minutes ago, fathom said:

E.Yep, it’s because I think we all view him as most replaceable of the young guys 

You can’t have it both ways. You can’t bash him but then think he has a lot of value.

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7 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Scotty Pods was 59 for 82 for the 2005 White Sox and he is legendary.

Good catch.  We all like and quote certain statistics while avoiding others.  Notice that no one ever uses the GG Nick won in Birmingham.

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4 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

You can’t have it both ways. You can’t bash him but then think he has a lot of value.

Some teams absolutely might value a plus plus hit tool more than others.  Personally, I’d rather the Sox just try to hit 300 homers a year like the Twins in 2019.

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6 minutes ago, fathom said:

Some teams absolutely might value a plus plus hit tool more than others.  Personally, I’d rather the Sox just try to hit 300 homers a year like the Twins in 2019.

Madrigal is a one tool player but that one tool is elite. One tool players where that tool is the hit and it's a 70-80 have a place in MLB, especially when they play up the middle. Madrigal does....he's Nick Punto if Nick Punto was actually a good hitter. Lots of gork shots, ducksnorts and seeing eye grounders with the occasional double or triple. 

Edited by Jack Parkman
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23 minutes ago, fathom said:

He was 43/62 stealing bases in the minors. That’s way too many caught stealings for someone that’s supposed to be an amazing base runner. There were also numerous other outs on the bases he made, and many of us in the minor league threads referenced this.

Being a good baserunner and a good base stealer are two entirely different things. 

Edited by RagahRagah
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23 minutes ago, RagahRagah said:

Being a good baserunner and a good base stealer are two entirely different things. 

Smh Ragah. Madrigal is neither. His speed, baserunning, defense, and baseball IQ were so overrated. If he wasn't an overachieving, little "grinder", he wouldn't be so overrated in those departments.

Edited by ron883
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27 minutes ago, poppysox said:

There aren't many people on this forum that complain less than I do about anything.  Most people think I have a positive attitude about the WS team in general.  I have pointed out the small sample size in many posts...and it's effect on errors, base running, and BA.  I haven't really harped much about those who use those arguments other than state my disagreement in what Madrigals value is.  This forum is about expressing opinions and it is my opinion that Madrigal is and will be a very good ballplayer.

Poppy I love your optimism.   What frustrates me is the near universal belief on Soxtalk that someone with Madrigal's skill set is so replaceable.  Tampa Bay traded with Oakland to get a 2b in 2018.  TB is a smart team.  That year their second base man hit 7 home runs, stole 16 of 20 bases and put up a .300/.354/.435 slash line...and was worth 4.8 WAR.  That was the 22nd best WAR for all non pitchers in the majors.  That's what people see in Madrigal.  Fangraph says 2B is one of the weakest positions in baseball...Yolmer was the average 2B in 2018.  Perhaps the White Sox have totally given up on him given the couple of outs he ran into on the base path and the couple of errors he made as a 23 year old rookie as our "insiders" say.  Perhaps three or four silly mistakes for a first time major leaguer are too much to look past while the .340 batting average is just SSS.   I just think Hahn is smarter than that...and there are very few pitchers out there that are worth the risk of losing a 3 WAR player for the next 6 years at a talent starved position that will cost almost nothing.         

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43 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

You can’t have it both ways. You can’t bash him but then think he has a lot of value.

Plenty of players have lots of value but are flawed, why is Madrigal exempt from this?

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5 minutes ago, Drake Is Our Leader said:

  

Gonna guess Yankees

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5 minutes ago, Drake Is Our Leader said:

 

Yankees?

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9 minutes ago, ron883 said:

Smh Ragah. Madrigal is neither. His speed, baserunning, defense, and baseball IQ were so overrated. If he wasn't an overachieving, little "grinder", he wouldn't be so overrated in those departments.

There is 0 substance to this response and there was not even a counterpoint to what I said.

Edited by RagahRagah

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9 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Poppy I love your optimism.   What frustrates me is the near universal belief on Soxtalk that someone with Madrigal's skill set is so replaceable.  Tampa Bay traded with Oakland to get a 2b in 2018.  TB is a smart team.  That year their second base man hit 7 home runs, stole 16 of 20 bases and put up a .300/.354/.435 slash line...and was worth 4.8 WAR.  That was the 22nd best WAR for all non pitchers in the majors.  That's what people see in Madrigal.  Fangraph says 2B is one of the weakest positions in baseball...Yolmer was the average 2B in 2018.  Perhaps the White Sox have totally given up on him given the couple of outs he ran into on the base path and the couple of errors he made as a 23 year old rookie as our "insiders" say.  Perhaps three or four silly mistakes for a first time major leaguer are too much to look past while the .340 batting average is just SSS.   I just think Hahn is smarter than that...and there are very few pitchers out there that are worth the risk of losing a 3 WAR player for the next 6 years at a talent starved position that will cost almost nothing.         

Well said.

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Just now, Jose Abreu said:

Plenty of players have lots of value but are flawed, why is Madrigal exempt from this?

You can’t say he is a one tool player but then say you can get a lot for him. It isn’t right. You aren’t stacking a team on a video game. If you think the guy is an easily replaceable player, nothing special, you have to think, if you give yourself any credit, the guys that get paid millions to really assess that, think so too.

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2 minutes ago, RagahRagah said:

There is 0 substance to this response and there was not even a counterpoint to what I said.

I tailored it to match your style

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44 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Judging Madrigal right now as he is what he is is being very shortsighted. And if you did that to all players just starting out, the Sox would probably need a new LF, new 3B, new SS, a few new pitchers, and maybe even a new CF as well. 
 

What exactly is to be expected from a rookie who gets into about 30 games after spending a month not playing real games but in some sort of camp in Schaumburg? 
 

If the Sox trade him, they better get something really good. But, if a lot of Soxtalk is to be believed, how could they get anything worthwhile for such a hopeless player? 
 

 

Don't forget he had a bad shoulder to boot. HE WILL NOT BE TRADED and the Sox have no interest in trading him. They drafted him that high for a reason and by all accounts he was the guy they wanted badly. And judging by what he did in the minors and majors he solidified there thinking. He will be a very good solid player for us for years to come and it wouldn't surprise me if he won a batting title down the road. To me he fits in perfect with our lineup with flexibility to hit at the top or bottom of the order. it's crazy talk about him or Vaughn getting traded. I swear some here just want a trade just for a trade. Crazy talk imo.

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4 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

You can’t say he is a one tool player but then say you can get a lot for him. It isn’t right. You aren’t stacking a team on a video game. If you think the guy is an easily replaceable player, nothing special, you have to think, if you give yourself any credit, the guys that get paid millions to really assess that, think so too.

I see. One tool is a stretch to me but I know that's what you were replying to. IMO, he has decent trade value in that he moves the needle and can be the 2nd best piece for a Burnes/Gonzales, but he can't headline

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2 minutes ago, SoxSteve said:

Don't forget he had a bad shoulder to boot. HE WILL NOT BE TRADED and the Sox have no interest in trading him. They drafted him that high for a reason and by all accounts he was the guy they wanted badly. And judging by what he did in the minors and majors he solidified there thinking. He will be a very good solid player for us for years to come and it wouldn't surprise me if he won a batting title down the road. To me he fits in perfect with our lineup with flexibility to hit at the top or bottom of the order. it's crazy talk about him or Vaughn getting traded. I swear some here just want a trade just for a trade. Crazy talk imo.

You have a source?

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9 minutes ago, ron883 said:

Smh Ragah. Madrigal is neither. His speed, baserunning, defense, and baseball IQ were so overrated. If he wasn't an overachieving, little "grinder", he wouldn't be so overrated in those departments.

So what sample size did you require to determine his uselessness?  First major league game?  First inning of a major league game?  Those idiots at BA, MLB.com, MLB pipeline and Baseball prospectus all have thought for the last two years that he was one of the 50 best prospects in all of baseball.  He won the PAC 12 player of the year, College gold glove, PAC 12 defensive player of the year.   First year in the minors he won the GG for minor league 2b while hitting .311.  Are they using a different baseball in the majors?  Is there some fundamental reason his entire history and the scores of scouts and analysts that think he is a +fielder and +runner are all wrong?     

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Just now, Wisebri224 said:

Sorry I thought this was the pitcher thread 😁

What is the best offering at Cheesecake Factory?

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3 minutes ago, Wisebri224 said:

Sorry I thought this was the pitcher thread 😁

Soxtalk is a meandering river.  You should see our debate on thermodynamics in the "NBC Sports is going away" thread.  

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29 minutes ago, ron883 said:

You have a source?

No source like most here. just using common sense. Do you think we are going to trade our most recent  3-4 picks away? There is reason we have drafted pitching that high the last 2 drafts. it's because we don't want to pay a high salary to a pitcher and we don't want to trade away promising players like Vaughn  and Madrigal away for pitching. I don't think we would draft a short right handed first baseman and a short contact only hitter that high if they didn't love them and they didn't fit into the projected lineup. Now if someone said we are trading some young  pitching away like Dalquest or Thompson etc ain a package for a proven cost controlled starter I would believe that for sure because it makes sense. Madrigal and Vaughn doesn't at least to me.

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