poppysox Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 31 minutes ago, Leonard Zelig said: I can’t speak for others, but maybe people have higher expectations for a #4 overall pick than a 19th round pick. Mike Trout was drafted in the #25 slot. The draft is a crapshoot. If you select a player who ends up with a decent major league career...you win. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold's Leg Lift Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 42 minutes ago, Leonard Zelig said: I can’t speak for others, but maybe people have higher expectations for a #4 overall pick than a 19th round pick. Bingo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 47 minutes ago, Leonard Zelig said: I can’t speak for others, but maybe people have higher expectations for a #4 overall pick than a 19th round pick. And this here is the problem. Some of you guys can’t stop thinking about his draft position when debating his go-forward value to the Sox. I too wish we took Kelenic over Madrigal, but the pick is a sunk cost at this point and that doesn’t have any merit on whether Nick can be a good player or not. If we’re debating whether Hostetler was good at drafting, by all means bring up selecting Madrigal with the #4 pick. Otherwise, that factor is completely meaningless to these discussions. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 5 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: And this here is the problem. Some of you guys can’t stop thinking about his draft position when debating his go-forward value to the Sox. I too wish we took Kelenic over Madrigal, but the pick is a sunk cost at this point and that doesn’t have any merit on whether Nick can be a good player or not. If we’re debating whether Hostetler was good at drafting, by all means bring up selecting Madrigal with the #4 pick. Otherwise, that factor is completely meaningless to these discussions. Yeah even I agree with this. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dominikk85 Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 11 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: And this here is the problem. Some of you guys can’t stop thinking about his draft position when debating his go-forward value to the Sox. I too wish we took Kelenic over Madrigal, but the pick is a sunk cost at this point and that doesn’t have any merit on whether Nick can be a good player or not. If we’re debating whether Hostetler was good at drafting, by all means bring up selecting Madrigal with the #4 pick. Otherwise, that factor is completely meaningless to these discussions. I wouldn't even say that. 4th overall picks 08 to 17 (newer ones can't be judged yet) 17: Brendan mckay 16:riley pint 15: dillon tate 14: schwarber 13: kohl stewart 12: kevin gausman 11: dylan bundi 10: christian colon 09: tony sanchez 08: Brian matusz Would you take anyone of them? The kelenic comparison is unfair because kelenic is 29 picks -i.e the field and could have been just as well been Kyle skipworth (google him). If madrigal turns out to be a 2 war guy he is way above average fo the 4th pick of the last decade plus you have to consider that madrigal at the time wasn't seen as a 3 homer guy put people thought he could become a 15 homer guy an hit 300 with 15 bombs like pedroia so there was upside (maybe still is?). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold's Leg Lift Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 You can't go back and look at the MLB draft in a vacum like you can the NFL or NBA because money plays such a big part in those selections. This year the O's selected Keston Hjerstad with the 2nd pick. They did not think he was the 2nd best player in the draft (he received the 8th highest signing bonus) but they thought he was the best player for the money. Simply going back and looking at the order they were chosen does not give an accurate representation for why they were chosen. This is the biggest misunderstanding of how the MLB draft works Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perfect Vision Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 In his first 29 career games last year Madrigal hit .340, and here we have a 6 page thread with people complaining about him. So bizarre. 5 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagahRagah Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 1 hour ago, Leonard Zelig said: I can’t speak for others, but maybe people have higher expectations for a #4 overall pick than a 19th round pick. Perhaps. But... still besides the point here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Deep Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 23 minutes ago, Perfect Vision said: In his first 29 career games last year Madrigal hit .340, and here we have a 6 page thread with people complaining about him. So bizarre. 100 percent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 33 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said: You can't go back and look at the MLB draft in a vacum like you can the NFL or NBA because money plays such a big part in those selections. This year the O's selected Keston Hjerstad with the 2nd pick. They did not think he was the 2nd best player in the draft (he received the 8th highest signing bonus) but they thought he was the best player for the money. Simply going back and looking at the order they were chosen does not give an accurate representation for why they were chosen. This is the biggest misunderstanding of how the MLB draft works Then your expectations of him as the 4 pick is invalid as well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buehrle>Wood Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 2 hours ago, Leonard Zelig said: I can’t speak for others, but maybe people have higher expectations for a #4 overall pick than a 19th round pick. Why is where David Eckstein drafted in 1997 relevant at all to anything? He was a good MLB player. Put up 9.5 war first two years in MLB. That would be awesome even for a #1 overall draft pick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drake Is Our Leader Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 Madrigal may become an all-star, but with no power, everything else has to be perfect. Every square of inch of that defensive issue from last year has to get cleaned up right good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 4 minutes ago, Buehrle>Wood said: Why is where David Eckstein drafted in 1997 relevant at all to anything? He was a good MLB player. Put up 9.5 war first two years in MLB. That would be awesome even for a #1 overall draft pick. With a 4.5 WAR season driven by getting hit by pitches an insane amount, incredible baserunning, and incredible defense. This is where actually watching his play it makes it concerning and I struggle with the perception we can just say "he's at least David Eckstein". Maybe he isn't. He's at least Hanser Alberto. That's 2 war for six years. Sox should be thrilled. And not for nothing but Orioles didn't even bother offering him arb and we could pick him up for a million. I don't think Madrigal is the devil, I just don't buy he's providing a bunch of surplus value and I think we could easily trade him and get better value elsewhere and supplementing with a cheap 2b. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 1 minute ago, bmags said: With a 4.5 WAR season driven by getting hit by pitches an insane amount, incredible baserunning, and incredible defense. This is where actually watching his play it makes it concerning and I struggle with the perception we can just say "he's at least David Eckstein". Maybe he isn't. He's at least Hanser Alberto. That's 2 war for six years. Sox should be thrilled. And not for nothing but Orioles didn't even bother offering him arb and we could pick him up for a million. I don't think Madrigal is the devil, I just don't buy he's providing a bunch of surplus value and I think we could easily trade him and get better value elsewhere and supplementing with a cheap 2b. This can't possibly be correct. He is either the devil or the savior of the team. Just like everything else in today's world the is no middle ground, it's one of the polar ends./green 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold's Leg Lift Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 14 minutes ago, ptatc said: Then your expectations of him as the 4 pick is invalid as well. My expectationfor the 4th pick is not perfromance based. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 2 hours ago, Leonard Zelig said: I can’t speak for others, but maybe people have higher expectations for a #4 overall pick than a 19th round pick. In hindsight, Mike Trout would have been a better pick than Jared Mitchell. Hindsight always has 20-20 vision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Zelig Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 1 hour ago, Buehrle>Wood said: Why is where David Eckstein drafted in 1997 relevant at all to anything? He was a good MLB player. Put up 9.5 war first two years in MLB. That would be awesome even for a #1 overall draft pick. I’ve never knocked Madrigal or the pick, I was stating why I think he has become a polarizing player on here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagahRagah Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 1 hour ago, poppysox said: In hindsight, Mike Trout would have been a better pick than Jared Mitchell. Hindsight always has 20-20 vision. This. Also, people seem to think there's Trouts and Harpers ripe for the taking in every draft. That isn't generally reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dominikk85 Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 2 hours ago, Drake Is Our Leader said: Madrigal may become an all-star, but with no power, everything else has to be perfect. Every square of inch of that defensive issue from last year has to get cleaned up right good. To be fair he was not projected for no power. Longenhagen saw him as a guy who could eventually hit 15 bombs and maybe even 20 if he does the altuve. He might still get there or not, but if he turns out to be a 3 homer guy like dee gordon that already is underperforming what the sox thought of him. So the 300 with 3 homers already is more a 50th percentile outcome, the ceiling outcome was 330 with 15 homers and great defense for 4-5 war a year which is probably higher than the floor on for example vaughn. Now there also is a downside of being a 270 hitter with 3 homers which would make him a utility guy and not a starter and that would be bad but then again the floor for a HS kid is not being able to hit A ball pitching. Yeah madrigal was not the highest upside guy but you couldn't and maybe can't rule out he could make a little swing change, add some muscles and become an altuve type. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 (edited) 43 minutes ago, Dominikk85 said: To be fair he was not projected for no power. Longenhagen saw him as a guy who could eventually hit 15 bombs and maybe even 20 if he does the altuve. He might still get there or not, but if he turns out to be a 3 homer guy like dee gordon that already is underperforming what the sox thought of him. So the 300 with 3 homers already is more a 50th percentile outcome, the ceiling outcome was 330 with 15 homers and great defense for 4-5 war a year which is probably higher than the floor on for example vaughn. Now there also is a downside of being a 270 hitter with 3 homers which would make him a utility guy and not a starter and that would be bad but then again the floor for a HS kid is not being able to hit A ball pitching. Yeah madrigal was not the highest upside guy but you couldn't and maybe can't rule out he could make a little swing change, add some muscles and become an altuve type. I think him becoming an Altuve type is something we can rule out with at the very least 75% accuracy and that might be generous. He is too focused on making contact. That is what has been his M.O. I think it's possible for him to improve his hard hit ball rate but because of the focus on not striking out he will always get a lot of Piranha type hits. He still needs to show he can be above average in the field and running the bases. If he does that and still maintains the bleeders and doinks while adding more hard hit balls that become doubles and triples we're going to get a pretty good player capable of 3+ WAR every year for a while. He needs to reign himself in on the bases and show he is the heady type of player everyone thought he was. That's one major adjustment he should be capable of making rather quickly. I'm hoping TLR makes him understand his role is to get on base, field well and run smart and that will be enough. He doesn't have to be more than he is. Edited January 7, 2021 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotHahn Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 Haven't heard anyone complain that Cespedes being too short at 5'9 but lots of complaining about Madrigal being 5'8. Anyone concerned about Cespedes size? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 3 minutes ago, NotHahn said: Haven't heard anyone complain that Cespedes being too short at 5'9 but lots of complaining about Madrigal being 5'8. Anyone concerned about Cespedes size? From what I can tell, Cespedes has a bigger frame and has already packed on a lot of muscle. This isn’t just about height as Madrigal is just a little guy all around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi8is Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 On 1/7/2021 at 7:27 AM, Perfect Vision said: In his first 29 career games last year Madrigal hit .340, and here we have a 6 page thread with people complaining about him. So bizarre. While hurt, nonetheless. I’m a huge Madrigal fan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi8is Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 42 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: Madrigal is just a little guy all around Watch it there bud... this is bordering on NSFW and insulting. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 On 1/7/2021 at 8:53 AM, fathom said: Yeah even I agree with this. Thirded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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