RagahRagah Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 7 minutes ago, VAfan said: What will not happen? Brantley? I definitely don't expect it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VAfan Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 BTW - I think the Sox are a bit short of where they could be with another strategic addition. And I also think the Sox are not done adding to this team. But I'm also reminded of the 2005 club. Who thought that team was ready to win the World Series??? - Frank Thomas was hurt and played in only a handful of games. - Jose Contreras, who became our staff ace, was coming off a season with a 5.5 ERA - Jon Garland was coming off a 12-11 4.89 ERA season - We went through 3 closers, with the first 2 not even appearing in the postseason - We finished 9th in runs scored in the AL, where we had finished 3rd in the previous year. But our pitching went from 11th in ERA to first, from 4.91 to 3.61. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VAfan Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 4 minutes ago, RagahRagah said: I definitely don't expect it. I don't "expect" Brantley either, because there will be bidders for him, especially if the NL keeps the DH. I just think: A. The Sox would love Brantley if they can get him for their price. B. Brantley would make more of a difference than a mediocre starter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagahRagah Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 18 minutes ago, VAfan said: I don't "expect" Brantley either, because there will be bidders for him, especially if the NL keeps the DH. I just think: A. The Sox would love Brantley if they can get him for their price. B. Brantley would make more of a difference than a mediocre starter. Absolutely right on with B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, Flash said: I tend to agree. My guess is everyone from JR to TLR and RH/KW believe we can win it all. They are smart enough to know we need another starter. The marginal difference in said starters contribution could very well make all the difference. The lack of obvious FA difference-makers (after Bauer), combined with revenue uncertainty due to COVID requires creativity but I don't believe the FO will let a couple $ million prevent them from bringing in a good fit. If that were the case, why would they spring $54M for Hendriks? They sprung for Hendriks because he is the best option to win games we should win heading into the 9th. With our BP and hitting we should be leading a lot of games heading into the 7th inning. We need to win as many of those as possible to cover for any lack of starting pitcher on the back end of the rotation. That is why they got Hendriks so him and the rest of the pen can win winnable games and in games we are behind get us some late inning come from behind wins. They are smart enough to know we need another starter but cheap enough to say we can win a lot more games with a great BP than we can with the back end starters still available in Free Agency. Almost all other FA starting pitchers could give you the same results no matter what they cost. Finding the right one might purely be a matter of luck rather than how much you pay one of them. Tanaka, Ordorizzi or Paxton may not be any more likely to provide better results than, Richards, Walker, Leake, Fiers, Samardzija, Teheran etc. If they don't end up trading for SP then my suggestion is sign the guy with the best chance of staying healthy all year. We may already have that guy in Lopez Edited January 17, 2021 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 6 hours ago, VAfan said: I think the Sox are going "all in" in their own way. It's just that "all in" to the Sox is not what it is to the fan base, who is happy to spend unlimited amounts of money because it isn't ours. Hendricks is an all in move. Lynn is an all-in move, even if we extend him for a couple years. Eaton is even an all-in move if you don't have the money for Springer because the other OF on the market can't really play RF, and because he's not so expensive you couldn't also get Hendricks. Kluber would be been the ultimate all-in move if they could have kept him from going to the Yankees, because if he's returned to 2014-2018 form he could top our rotation, and because it would deprive the Yankees of the starting pitching they would need to beat us. Tony LaRussa was definitely an all-in move, because you don't accept the risk he poses if you don't think his experience can get you to the WS. I happen to think the Sox are a couple of moves short of being "all-in" for this year, to give themselves the best shot at the playoffs and WS. But I'm not privy to their financials or what they can do. How much more can the Sox spend to truly be "all-in"? That's the question. My personal remaining wish list was Kluber, who could be a bigger steal for $11M than Lance Lynn is for $8M. And Michael Brantley, who should be available for less than his $16M salary from the last 2 years. I would give him the $13M we had allocated for Encarnacion's option. What the Sox shouldn't do is spend money on mediocre pitching just to have another starter. Whomever they look to add needs to be an upgrade over the alternative. For example, if the Sox are going to sign a DH/LF or DH who plays some other position, they need to be a solid upgrade over Vaughn's rookie year. Similarly, if the Sox are going to spend real money to sign another starting pitcher, they need to be a solid upgrade over Cease/Kopech/Lopez when you factor in the potential improvements those pitchers might make under our new pitching coach. They really should be someone you would consider starting in a playoff game. At this point, with Kluber gone and Bauer being the only FA pitcher left who would give us a World Series boost, I would probably focus on adding a bat like Brantley's, because that would give us the biggest upgrade. Very well thought out and expressed opinions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 8 hours ago, RagahRagah said: How do you disagree? It's desperate, pathetic and bush league. Not to mention foolish and a waste of good money. Hell, they weren't even good players. Because is was worth the shot to try to get Machado. The money is inconsequential. You say Bush league, I say good attempt to upgrade the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 6 minutes ago, ptatc said: Because is was worth the shot to try to get Machado. The money is inconsequential. You say Bush league, I say good attempt to upgrade the team. “The money wasted on those guys was inconsequential” White Sox: “loses the guy they tried to acquire over money”. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 6 hours ago, RagahRagah said: Yet this will not happen. I fully expect this offseason to ultimately fall in line with the typical FO failures we are used to. You consider the past few off seasons failures? You do have interesting expectations. Acquiring Giolito, Keuchal, Lynn, Grandal, Moncada, Jimenez, Robert, Cease and Hendriks. Extending really good contracts to Abreu, Moncada, Jimenez and Robert. They've built a pretty good team. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: “The money wasted on those guys was inconsequential” White Sox: “loses the guy they tried to acquire over money”. Each season has its own budget. I'm going to guess that 13 million a few seasons ago really didn't impact much after the revenue drop last year. They always have a budget. Extrapolating it from a few years ago is a useless exercise. You could say they saved that money on the really good contracts they signed sale, quintana and Eaton to that allowed them to acquire much of the talent currently on the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagahRagah Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 4 hours ago, ptatc said: Because is was worth the shot to try to get Machado. The money is inconsequential. You say Bush league, I say good attempt to upgrade the team. That's just ridiculous. We ended up with 2 shit players we wasted money on and looked like desperate idiots in the process. The money could have just gone towards the offer. It was pathetic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagahRagah Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 (edited) 5 hours ago, ptatc said: You consider the past few off seasons failures? You do have interesting expectations. Acquiring Giolito, Keuchal, Lynn, Grandal, Moncada, Jimenez, Robert, Cease and Hendriks. Extending really good contracts to Abreu, Moncada, Jimenez and Robert. They've built a pretty good team. The "past few" seasons were not this one. This one has been treated as an all in season. The Lynn trade was an all in move. Yet apparently we are not going all in. Having a "pretty good team" is entirely irrelevant to the point here. We were a pretty good team without the trade.. Trading for Lynn is a win now move yet we are apparently not going to spend enough on our other needs to solidify that notion. Which makes the trade a waste. It would be different if he had multiple years left. It's not hard to understand. Edited January 17, 2021 by RagahRagah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 12 hours ago, VAfan said: BTW - I think the Sox are a bit short of where they could be with another strategic addition. And I also think the Sox are not done adding to this team. But I'm also reminded of the 2005 club. Who thought that team was ready to win the World Series??? - Frank Thomas was hurt and played in only a handful of games. - Jose Contreras, who became our staff ace, was coming off a season with a 5.5 ERA - Jon Garland was coming off a 12-11 4.89 ERA season - We went through 3 closers, with the first 2 not even appearing in the postseason - We finished 9th in runs scored in the AL, where we had finished 3rd in the previous year. But our pitching went from 11th in ERA to first, from 4.91 to 3.61. Funny how great pitching can hide a multitude of sins. 🙂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 58 minutes ago, RagahRagah said: That's just ridiculous. We ended up with 2 shit players we wasted money on and looked like desperate idiots in the process. The money could have just gone towards the offer. It was pathetic. Just because it didn't work doesn't mean it wasn't worth the shot. I agree it didn't work bit it wasn't a long term issue as the players were gone the next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 57 minutes ago, RagahRagah said: The "past few" seasons were not this one. This one has been treated as an all in season. The Lynn trade was an all in move. Yet apparently we are not going all in. Having a "pretty good team" is entirely irrelevant to the point here. We were a pretty good team without the trade.. Trading for Lynn is a win now move yet we are apparently not going to spend enough on our other needs to solidify that notion. Which makes the trade a waste. It would be different if he had multiple years left. It's not hard to understand. It is not an all in season. Its a season where the are taking a shot but also continuing to develop players for the future. Robert and Madrigal are going to have growing pains and Cease will hopefully continue to grow as well as Vaughn, kopech, crochet and steiver all of whom are close to the MLB. Besides you said another failure that we are used to from thr FO. I just pointed out that I'm not used to failure from the FO as they've had some offseasons recently that I wouldn't call failures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 17 minutes ago, poppysox said: Funny how great pitching can hide a multitude of sins. 🙂 No doubt. Which is why I prefer not to trade away the stating pitching in the minors. It has the potential to be very good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted January 17, 2021 Author Share Posted January 17, 2021 1 hour ago, RagahRagah said: The "past few" seasons were not this one. This one has been treated as an all in season. The Lynn trade was an all in move. Yet apparently we are not going all in. Having a "pretty good team" is entirely irrelevant to the point here. We were a pretty good team without the trade.. Trading for Lynn is a win now move yet we are apparently not going to spend enough on our other needs to solidify that notion. Which makes the trade a waste. It would be different if he had multiple years left. It's not hard to understand. The Lynn trade wasn’t an all-in move given where Dunning was in the pecking order. It definitely shifted future value into the 2021 season, but we still have Giolito plus Kopech, Cease, & Crochet as potential high-end arms ahead of him in our long-term plans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 Just now, ptatc said: No doubt. Which is why I prefer not to trade away the stating pitching in the minors. It has the potential to be very good. I agree. You don't see me suggesting these trades for our young guns. I'm trying to be all in on Katz and his ability to get through to them. I even have some hope of Lopez finding the magic potion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagahRagah Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 8 minutes ago, ptatc said: Just because it didn't work doesn't mean it wasn't worth the shot. I agree it didn't work bit it wasn't a long term issue as the players were gone the next year. It wasn't worth the shot. Because it was pathetic and bush league. The Sox knew what he wanted and instead tried to be cute. Sorry, there is no defending something so foolish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagahRagah Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 Just now, Chicago White Sox said: The Lynn trade wasn’t an all-in move given where Dunning was in the pecking order. It definitely shifted future value into the 2021 season, but we still have Giolito plus Kopech, Cease, & Crochet as potential high-end arms ahead of him in our long-term plans. Lynn is supposed to move the needle, and he very well might. It's a one year deal and he is 34 years old. It's definitely an all in move, I don't see how that's even an argument. If it's not an all in move, then you keep Dunning, who had control and was developing well. There's no logical way around that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagahRagah Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 6 minutes ago, ptatc said: It is not an all in season. Its a season where the are taking a shot but also continuing to develop players for the future. Robert and Madrigal are going to have growing pains and Cease will hopefully continue to grow as well as Vaughn, kopech, crochet and steiver all of whom are close to the MLB. Besides you said another failure that we are used to from thr FO. I just pointed out that I'm not used to failure from the FO as they've had some offseasons recently that I wouldn't call failures. If it's not an all in season, then you don't trade a potential quality starter who is developing that could just pitch that year for one year of a 34 year old. I am not sure why this has to be repeated constantly and it is getting tiresome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 2 minutes ago, RagahRagah said: If it's not an all in season, then you don't trade a potential quality starter who is developing that could just pitch that year for one year of a 34 year old. I am not sure why this has to be repeated constantly and it is getting tiresome. Yes you do. They tradided one if their promising starters, probably their 4th best one, to improve their chances thus year. If they trade multiple prospects and start to empty the farm, that is all in. Trading Dunning who I liked and is a good prospect is not all in. He is not Verlander and scherzer or even a kopexh, Crochet or Kelly for a ceiling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted January 17, 2021 Author Share Posted January 17, 2021 4 minutes ago, RagahRagah said: Lynn is supposed to move the needle, and he very well might. It's a one year deal and he is 34 years old. It's definitely an all in move, I don't see how that's even an argument. If it's not an all in move, then you keep Dunning, who had control and was developing well. There's no logical way around that. We’re arguing semantics here, but I would consider trading important core pieces like Cease, Kopech, Crochet, or Vaughn to be an all-in move. I love Dunning but he is simply not that caliber of prospect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted January 17, 2021 Author Share Posted January 17, 2021 Just now, ptatc said: Yes you do. They tradided one if their promising starters, probably their 4th best one, to improve their chances thus year. If they trade multiple prospects and start to empty the farm, that is all in. Trading Dunning who I liked and is a good prospect is not all in. He is not Verlander and scherzer or even a kopexh, Crochet or Kelly for a ceiling. Agree with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 6 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: Agree with this. Even with the awful typing skills? Yeeesh that is a bad one. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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