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Have the White Sox "spent the money" that Rick Hahn promised?

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2 minutes ago, WhiteSoxFan1993 said:

While I agree with the sentiment you are trying to convey, your numbers look more extreme than they really are because you cherry picked 2011 as the highest salary year. A better comparison would be 5 year averages from 2008-12 with 2017-21.

That’s still going to be high or higher if you included 2006/07 all the way through 2012, since that’s when they were spending to defend a World Series title and were paying just the starting rotation alone roughly $50 million.

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34 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I’m trying to remain positive given how good the bulk of our roster is, but I do fear what happens at the deadline if our lack of depth finally leaves us exposed.  Right now we could add decent depth pieces just for money, but come July even decent rentals will cost a pretty penny and that will hurt an already weak farm system.  Just got to hope our players mostly stay healthy, which is asking a lot when you have injury prone guys like Eloy, Robert, Eaton, Madrigal, & Moncada in the lineup.  We also desperately need one of Cease or Kopech to step up, because we can’t survive two black holes at the back end of the rotation.

Next year the excuse will be the CBA uncertainty/potential strike and financial losses incurred in 2020-21due to Covid...will they really go out and boost the payroll into the $145-165 million range heading into that tsunami of an offseason?   
 

Maybe the MLBPA will be licking its wounds from lost salaries over these two seasons, but you’re looking at two entrenched sides that won’t easily give in, especially with the owners gaining the upper hand the last 5-7 years.

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If they're on the verge of giving Gio a 9 figure extension, then I would understand the penny pinching. Otherwise, it's disappointing. They had a chance to grab this division by the balls and they passed on that opportunity.

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59 minutes ago, Sarava said:

If they're on the verge of giving Gio a 9 figure extension, then I would understand the penny pinching. Otherwise, it's disappointing. They had a chance to grab this division by the balls and they passed on that opportunity.

That is just more and more unlikely to happen...it will be the John Danks excuse.   If he has another Top 5-10 AL Cy Young season, the risk/reward numerator goes higher and higher.  If he’d never had TJS in the past, then it might have been possible.  

Let’s just wait and see how many more major pitching injuries there are this year...potentially having three consecutive shortened seasons in a row, then finally ramping up to 180-200 innings again in 2023?   Sure, that’s playing things out pessimistically, but they have to do risk mitigation and look at all the worst-case scenarios.   What looks like three future aces in Cease, Kopech and Crochet can quickly become just 1 or even none.   That said, the big gamble right now is two out of the four (including Kelley long-term) make it, so they don’t have to give Giolito $120-130 million.

 

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The Sox payroll is about league average. What more do people want? JR is down to his last billion. What more can you ask for?

Edited by Dick Allen
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I don't think our team should be capped. We should be spending within reason to win our division championships. That is how you sustain success and get Chicago behind you. That is how you get long term large crowds, tv coverage and marketing opportunities.

I don't understand why we couldn't at least sign a solid pitcher to a one year deal. No reason to not try with Nelson Cruz either on a one year deal and let Vaughn come up if Cruz sucks or next season. These are low cost short commitment type moves that get you the division and a great shot in post season. I understand not going huge on Bauer and Springer (although I don't agree) because those are longer deals. But no excuse for penny pinching on one year deals for good players. 

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12 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Using their ridiculously low payrolls at peak rebuild to suggest they spent most of the Machado money is poor logic.  The reality is that money has not been spent at this point in time.  However, if they can extend Giolito & Lynn and possibly add a few years onto Anderson’s deal I’d probably change my tune.

Or, ya know, they could have just ponied up for a real RF or ace...but yah.  

It sucks, but this team is still really good and poised for greatness.  Just sucks to not see them take that extra step when right on the precipice. 

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9 hours ago, VAfan said:

I agree the contention window opened in 2020, and the Sox spent on major free agents - Grandal, Keuchel, Encarnacion - that they hadn't before, and committed much more to extend Jose Abreu than most fans thought wise. They also locked up two cornerstones in Robert and Moncada. 

This year they added Lynn. It's a one-year deal but gives them an inside track on extending him if it makes sense. They added Hendriks for several years. Eaton, meanwhile, is just a bridge player. But they are also bringing up Vaughn and Kopech and giving Collins a chance as backup catcher. 

The payroll is going to grow considerably as all the young guys move gain experience, and as their contracts call for. Take any of the studs they have on long term deals.

Moncada - 2021 $6.8M, 2025 $25M

Robert - 2021 $3.5M, 2025 $15M

Jimenez - 2021 $4.3M, 2025 $16.5M

Anderson - 2021 $7.25M, 2024 $14M

Just for these 4 guys, 2021 $21.85M, 2025 $70M (fudging b/c Tim Anderson signed only through 2024).

Add in potentially doing something about Giolito, who only receives 4.15M in 2021 and you have the potential to increase payroll with just 5 guys by $70M.

If looked at this way, you can see why the Sox weren't in on Springer or Bauer, especially on long term contracts. They have been willing to supplement the core with short term free agents - 3-4 years tops - who they desperately have to replace with younger players in their cost-controlled years. So Lynn and Keuchel are bridges to Cease and Kopech and Crochet becoming TOR starters. Eaton is a bridge to Cespedes and/or Colas (if we sign him). It's hard to believe Collins will ever be a front line catcher, but he has 3 years to learn under Grandal before the Sox have to decide. Vaughn will eventually take over for Abreu. 

We all think the Sox are a major market team and should act like one. But we all know the Sox play second fiddle to the Cubs financially, even when the Cubs are bad and the Sox are good. Chicago is likely never going to become a Sox town. Though another World Series title would help. 

So I don't fault the team for it's approach. They have financial limits. I might not like them, but I can understand them. I don't think they are just cheaping out. I just want them to spend the money they have wisely, and to develop the players they have to play their best, and to win games with good management. 

I'm excited about the prospects for this team and think we have a shot. I think we'll win the division by several games and are set up well for playoff baseball. But that's another post. 

Absolutely. Great post

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I realize this is yet another thread that has evolved into "fuck the cheap owner, I hope he dies."

I will stick to my stand of not being overly upset at how the White Sox spend their money until it comes down to retaining our own talent.    That's where I will be holding pitchforks and stones with the rest of you.  

I don't want to hear Rick Hahn and Reinsdorf cry poor when it's time to pay up for Lucas Giollito.   When it's time to re-extend Tim Anderson or any of the other young players we have that have broken out to stars at some point.   

If we have another bail out like in the 90s of losing our core in McDowell, Fernandez, Alvarez, Ventura all because we didn't want to pay  the market on our own guys,   I'm going to have a real big issue with that. 

 

 

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The support for the rebuild was overwhelming IMHO and I feel like we were promised (I supposed "We expected" might be more accurate) a significant increase in payroll during the competitive window.  

I understand the hesitance to make long term commitments  but I feel like we had room for 1 or 2 more large short term deals this offseason.   I imagine the unknowns of the pandemic might be a legitimate concern for ownership but my patience will run out after next offseason.  

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4 hours ago, SonofaRoache said:

I don't think our team should be capped. We should be spending within reason to win our division championships. That is how you sustain success and get Chicago behind you. That is how you get long term large crowds, tv coverage and marketing opportunities.

I don't understand why we couldn't at least sign a solid pitcher to a one year deal. No reason to not try with Nelson Cruz either on a one year deal and let Vaughn come up if Cruz sucks or next season. These are low cost short commitment type moves that get you the division and a great shot in post season. I understand not going huge on Bauer and Springer (although I don't agree) because those are longer deals. But no excuse for penny pinching on one year deals for good players. 

You don't sign Cruz because Vaughn is the guy this year, just like Robert and Madrigal were last year. You don't sign the 1 year pitcher to block Kopech. When you have young studs, you bring them up.  

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28 minutes ago, VAfan said:

You don't sign Cruz because Vaughn is the guy this year, just like Robert and Madrigal were last year. You don't sign the 1 year pitcher to block Kopech. When you have young studs, you bring them up.  

Robert and Nick were coming to a team not expected to win a title. We can't afford for Vaughn to come up and struggle this year as our DH. Next year would be okay because our offense would probably work the kinks out this year. If Robert and Moncada need some time to figure things out to start this season, you don't also want your DH figuring stuff out too. 

As far as Kopech goes, he will get his shot to compete in June. Adding an extra starter in the lower tier gives you a guy who can throw innings until Kopech is ready and replace him or Cease if they are struggling. Said pitcher would transition to the bullpen if Kopech and Cease are pitching well. 

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We’ve been led on by an incomplete sentence all along, this “The money will be spent” business.  

Spent on what?  Premium available talent on the open market?  Bryce Harper, Manny Machado, George Springer, and Trevor Bauer say “HELL NO!  Not the White Sox!  Not Jerry Reinsdorf!”.

Only the Indians, Pirates, Athletics, and Royals have the highest contracts those teams have ever given out less than the Sox’ “franchise record” $73 million given to Grandal last year.  

It would be one thing if Reinsdorf’s frugal methods over his four decades as owner resulted in, you know, all kinds of winning.  Championship after championship after championship.  Yet we all know it’s been anything but that.  Not one playoff series win in 39 of his 40 years at the helm.  

So it’s clear that at this time of a championship window of opportunity that winning isn’t the top priority the occasional Reinsdorf fluff piece would have us believe.  We just have to hope now that the young, cheap talent can overcome the lesser talent that has been brought into augment them.  In other words, hope the team can prevail in spite of the owner’s cheap ways.  

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19 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Which leads to the conclusion that overall salary increases for MLB players are not even close to rising at the inflation rate over the last decade, despite a historic ten year stock market return when the billionaire class is getting exponentially richer and player share as a proportion of total team revenues (at least until 2020) has been decreasing by 0.xx% per year over that time.

They’re rising at the top and bottom, but the “middle class” veteran players in their 30s are getting crushed.  One of the few areas where salaries have risen during that time is for higher leverage relievers...a consequence of the Royals’ run, Andrew Miller in the postseason and the emergence of dominant multiple inning guys.

All the while the Social Security recipients got their cost of living adjustment of 1.3% annually.  

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What it comes down to is when you are nowhere near the luxury tax and the owner is unwilling to spend an extra $18M (or so?) to seriously compete for a world series it’s a problem. 
 

I never expected Bauer but if we had Walker/Paxton + Brantley instead of Eaton I would have 0 complaints about the off season. 

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Just now, TheFutureIsNear said:

What it comes down to is when you are nowhere near the luxury tax and the owner is unwilling to spend an extra $18M (or so?) to seriously compete for a world series it’s a problem. 
 

I never expected Bauer but if we had Walker/Paxton + Brantley instead of Eaton I would have 0 complaints about the off season. 

Yep not having the money to finish off the offseason despite having an average payroll is a kick in the balls to the fan base. It’s not surprising though.

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12 hours ago, HOFHurt35 said:

I realize this is yet another thread that has evolved into "fuck the cheap owner, I hope he dies."

I will stick to my stand of not being overly upset at how the White Sox spend their money until it comes down to retaining our own talent.    That's where I will be holding pitchforks and stones with the rest of you.  

I don't want to hear Rick Hahn and Reinsdorf cry poor when it's time to pay up for Lucas Giollito.   When it's time to re-extend Tim Anderson or any of the other young players we have that have broken out to stars at some point.   

If we have another bail out like in the 90s of losing our core in McDowell, Fernandez, Alvarez, Ventura all because we didn't want to pay  the market on our own guys,   I'm going to have a real big issue with that. 

 

 

Agree 100%. Either pay a little extra now to fill some spots or retain your prime talent. But to refrain from spending now AND allowing our talent to exit in a few years would be inexcusable.

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Julio Teheran, Taijuan Walker, Jake Arrieta, James Paxton and Jake Odorizzi still are available.

 

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1 hour ago, ChetLemon77 said:

Agree 100%. Either pay a little extra now to fill some spots or retain your prime talent. But to refrain from spending now AND allowing our talent to exit in a few years would be inexcusable.

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19 hours ago, HOFHurt35 said:

I realize this is yet another thread that has evolved into "fuck the cheap owner, I hope he dies."

I will stick to my stand of not being overly upset at how the White Sox spend their money until it comes down to retaining our own talent.    That's where I will be holding pitchforks and stones with the rest of you.  

I don't want to hear Rick Hahn and Reinsdorf cry poor when it's time to pay up for Lucas Giollito.   When it's time to re-extend Tim Anderson or any of the other young players we have that have broken out to stars at some point.   

If we have another bail out like in the 90s of losing our core in McDowell, Fernandez, Alvarez, Ventura all because we didn't want to pay  the market on our own guys,   I'm going to have a real big issue with that. 

 

 

Well put

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On 2/4/2021 at 8:22 PM, RagahRagah said:

A part of me honestly believes they were never serious. 

At this point the suggestion JR wants second place every year is 100% feasible.

P.T. Barnum 2.0 wishes he could achieve 2nd place finishes.

He's failed miserably at even that over his way-too-long tenure.

But to his non-sportsmen investor$ he's a first-ballot HOF owner.

Edited by GradMc

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21 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

The Sox payroll is about league average. What more do people want? JR is down to his last billion. What more can you ask for?

He's a paper billionaire.

He'd have to sell off the Sox and the Bulls to come anyway near realizing that kind of money.

I want the next owners to be Cohen / Balmer wealthy.

The Sox could take over this town with the right ownership and a new venue smartly located in the downtown area to grab that tourist dollar that seems to find its way to Clark and Addison.

Reinsdorf is many things - a visionary he is not.

It's mind-boggling he didn't take Mayor Washington up on his offer to anchor the up and coming South Loop.

 

 

 

 .

 

Edited by GradMc
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3 hours ago, GradMc said:

I want the next owners to be Cohen / Balmer wealthy.

 

Justice would be his kids selling the team to Mark Cuban while his body is still warm.

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5 hours ago, GradMc said:

He's a paper billionaire.

He'd have to sell off the Sox and the Bulls to come anyway near realizing that kind of money.

I want the next owners to be Cohen / Balmer wealthy.

The Sox could take over this town with the right ownership and a new venue smartly located in the downtown area to grab that tourist dollar that seems to find its way to Clark and Addison.

Reinsdorf is many things - a visionary he is not.

It's mind-boggling he didn't take Mayor Washington up on his offer to anchor the up and coming South Loop

The lease at 35th & Shields is up at the end of the decade, but unlike the late ‘80s when the South Loop was an option, is there even any location in the “downtown area” these days where a new ballpark could even be built?  I have no idea.  But it’s certainly exciting to think of the possibilities.  

I can’t think a new and improved ballpark, one with more seating than just the 40,000 capacity of the current one, won’t be something the new owner, whoever that turns out to be, won’t be thinking about seriously.  

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