Did We Go Cheap Not Signing Another Bat?

[Soxsi75]

6 minutes ago, poppysox said:

At least 7 years of winning!

A bit surprised you didn't respond when I responded to your quote. I fully appreciate your optimism, and I thought we were starting a pretty good baseball conversation and I really want your opinion. Two simple questions. Is our lineup better this year with Cruz in it or with Vaughn in it everyday? And is Minnesota's lineup right now better than ours? 

[poppysox]

20 hours ago, Wisebri224 said:

That isn’t how odds work.  That would be saying 4 guys at 25% chance of being good would guarantee 100% a good starter.  

I would say the odds are we will have 5 decent starters.🙂

[caulfield12]

49 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Oh I see what you did there...from 1920-1982 the White Sox went to the playoffs once and you can make the optimists look stupid for supporting a team that hasn't made the playoffs very often going back to 1906...hahaha.   It hasn't been a legendary franchise...but it's our team so I'm not sure WTF is your point outside of slamming some of the positive people??    White Sox had a playoff team last year and have added two of the top Cy Young candidates from 2020, a solid right fielder, a hall of fame manager, a hot shot pitching coach and will be adding three of top fifty prospects in all baseball to their core of good young players...and you and your ilk want to b**** non stop because we didn't go after some other teams garbage.   Honestly give me the water carriers over your cabal of urine carriers.           

Are you Paul Sullivan?

[poppysox]

1 minute ago, Soxsi75 said:

A bit surprised you didn't respond when I responded to your quote. I fully appreciate your optimism, and I thought we were starting a pretty good baseball conversation and I really want your opinion. Two simple questions. Is our lineup better this year with Cruz in it or with Vaughn in it everyday? And is Minnesota's lineup right now better than ours? 

I think we are better off having Vaughn in the lineup and the Cruz money held in reserve.  I will take our lineup over anyone.  Our lineup will be a nightmare for just about any pitcher to face.  Also, if the other team isn't leading after 7...forget it.

[poppysox]

4 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Since 2006, the Yankees have made the playoffs 11 times.

Since 2006, the Dodgers have made the playoffs 11 times.

Since 1906 the Chicago White Sox have made the playoffs 11 times. 

Practically the same thing, no idea why Sox fans would be upset that when one of those 11 times, after years and years of tanking and failure, the Sox wouldn't actually support the rare opportunity they have had to make the playoffs twice in a row... for the first time in team history. 

Between you, Poppy and VA fan you guys could supply the entire town of Flint with the fresh water that you carry for this organization.

You are lucky you have us.  This entire board would need anti-depressants.

[poppysox]

9 minutes ago, Soxsi75 said:

A bit surprised you didn't respond when I responded to your quote. I fully appreciate your optimism, and I thought we were starting a pretty good baseball conversation and I really want your opinion. Two simple questions. Is our lineup better this year with Cruz in it or with Vaughn in it everyday? And is Minnesota's lineup right now better than ours? 

Sorry!  I got busy fending off doom and gloom attacks.

[michelangelosmonkey]

7 minutes ago, Soxsi75 said:

You're right about just about all you said. Except the line you said that we shouldn't be upset that "we didn't go after some other teams garbage." Nelson Cruz isn't garbage. That was my argument of what they should have gone after to be stronger for THIS year. 

 

I was very loudly against EE last year.  EE has been a GREAT player for most of his career...but at some point you put the 38 year olds out to pasture.  Same with Cruz...Cruz is clearly not garage but at some point the steroid police are going to catch up to him and he will be EE 2.0.  Meanwhile I think you are underselling the potential for Vaughn...he is same age as Frank Thomas, similar background, similar hitting profile...high average, high OBP, Plus power...and at 23 Frank put up a 7+ WAR.   How do we know Vaughn can't be like that...ok Frank is a once in a generation hitter...but it's kind of been a generation.  The guys that should know watched Vaughn every day at the alternate site and are basically saying...nope we're good at DH.   AND I think you are too harsh on Collins...in 2018 led the whole minor leagues in walks, in 2019 he struggled in his first 30 MLB at bats...went down to AAA and finished with a .950 OPS at Charlotte and then came up late and put up nearly an .800 OPS in Sept/Oct (over .950 his last dozen games in 2019), and in spring training in 2020 he looked good at the plate.  His problem was we had two all star catchers all ready and a full time DH.   I think he can hit...I hope he can catch.   

[michelangelosmonkey]

9 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Are you Paul Sullivan?

No but I'm transitioning. 

[michelangelosmonkey]

9 minutes ago, poppysox said:

I think we are better off having Vaughn in the lineup and the Cruz money held in reserve.  I will take our lineup over anyone.  Our lineup will be a nightmare for just about any pitcher to face.  Also, if the other team isn't leading after 7...forget it.

I love the thought of having Vaughn, Eaton and Madrigal as 7-8-9.  Pitchers will go through first six guys all capable of hitting 30 home runs and then those last three guys will drive them crazy taking or following off pitches...getting on base 36% of the time.    This team is going to be so much fun.    

[Soxsi75]

1 minute ago, poppysox said:

I think we are better off having Vaughn in the lineup and the Cruz money held in reserve.  I will take our lineup over anyone.  Our lineup will be a nightmare for just about any pitcher to face.  Also, if the other team isn't leading after 7...forget it.

I certainly hope you're right. But we have nothing to go off of. Vaughn has never faced major league pitching. If Cruz were here, we could have worked him along slower. Now he doesn't have that luxury. He has to produce now. We can't have the "well, it's his rookie year, he needs time to adjust" scenario. I agree, I like this team too. And it's why I feel this way. I really felt that we had our foot on Minnesota's throat and if we could have signed Cruz and taken him away from them as well, we would have stomped our foot on their throats even harder. Now I feel like we let them off the hook by taking a "this'll be good enough" attitude. And because I like this team, I definitely feel that nothing short of winning the division is acceptable. If Minnesota wins the division and Cruz has another monster year to contribute to it, we should all be very angry. Don't really care about having that "money is reserve" if it doesn't help us win. 

[caulfield12]

19 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

I was very loudly against EE last year.  EE has been a GREAT player for most of his career...but at some point you put the 38 year olds out to pasture.  Same with Cruz...Cruz is clearly not garage but at some point the steroid police are going to catch up to him and he will be EE 2.0.  Meanwhile I think you are underselling the potential for Vaughn...he is same age as Frank Thomas, similar background, similar hitting profile...high average, high OBP, Plus power...and at 23 Frank put up a 7+ WAR.   How do we know Vaughn can't be like that...ok Frank is a once in a generation hitter...but it's kind of been a generation.  The guys that should know watched Vaughn every day at the alternate site and are basically saying...nope we're good at DH.   AND I think you are too harsh on Collins...in 2018 led the whole minor leagues in walks, in 2019 he struggled in his first 30 MLB at bats...went down to AAA and finished with a .950 OPS at Charlotte and then came up late and put up nearly an .800 OPS in Sept/Oct (over .950 his last dozen games in 2019), and in spring training in 2020 he looked good at the plate.  His problem was we had two all star catchers all ready and a full time DH.   I think he can hit...I hope he can catch.   

How many hitters on the entire Charlotte roster that received regular playing time were under .850?

I guess the key difference is Thomas just tore right through the Sox minor league system from the moment he was drafted...whereas it’s difficult to know what to make of last year development-wise for minor leaguers.  
 

Gordon Beckham and Luis Robert are the only two Sox rookie position players to come right out of the box guns blazing in quite some time (but both faded down the stretch.)  Tim Anderson held his own, too.   But that’s still a lot of pressure to put on a Collins or Vaughn if the team is struggling and there are significant injuries on either side of the roster.  

Now Vaughn’s certainly no Brian Anderson psychologically or in terms of work habits, but only those 1993-94 offenses were comparable to 2006, yet there still came a point in the season where Ozzie panicked and went to Mackowiak instead.   We can sit here today and say Vaughn only needs to be around 775 ops, because the rest of the hitters can carry the lineup.  But things don’t usually go as planned.

Edited February 8, 2021 by caulfield12

[michelangelosmonkey]

4 minutes ago, Soxsi75 said:

I certainly hope you're right. But we have nothing to go off of. Vaughn has never faced major league pitching. If Cruz were here, we could have worked him along slower. Now he doesn't have that luxury. He has to produce now. We can't have the "well, it's his rookie year, he needs time to adjust" scenario. I agree, I like this team too. And it's why I feel this way. I really felt that we had our foot on Minnesota's throat and if we could have signed Cruz and taken him away from them as well, we would have stomped our foot on their throats even harder. Now I feel like we let them off the hook by taking a "this'll be good enough" attitude. And because I like this team, I definitely feel that nothing short of winning the division is acceptable. If Minnesota wins the division and Cruz has another monster year to contribute to it, we should all be very angry. Don't really care about having that "money is reserve" if it doesn't help us win. 

He's turning 41 this year.   41.  You know how many players have had great years at 41?  I think the odds are better that Vaughn will be great at 23 than that Cruz will be great at 41....I also think the odds are pretty great Cruz gets hurt or gets caught doping (Because he must be doping).  While it's true that Vaughn doesn't have a MLB track record...neither did Frank...or a lot of hot shot young hitters.   I don't think there will be a ton of pressure on Vaughn because...everyone else on the team is a kid.   This is exactly the time to let him and Collins settle into those roles.  I even sort of think they should go to Jose and say...thanks for last year but your future is DH and give the glove to the kid.     

[Soxsi75]

33 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

I was very loudly against EE last year.  EE has been a GREAT player for most of his career...but at some point you put the 38 year olds out to pasture.  Same with Cruz...Cruz is clearly not garage but at some point the steroid police are going to catch up to him and he will be EE 2.0.  Meanwhile I think you are underselling the potential for Vaughn...he is same age as Frank Thomas, similar background, similar hitting profile...high average, high OBP, Plus power...and at 23 Frank put up a 7+ WAR.   How do we know Vaughn can't be like that...ok Frank is a once in a generation hitter...but it's kind of been a generation.  The guys that should know watched Vaughn every day at the alternate site and are basically saying...nope we're good at DH.   AND I think you are too harsh on Collins...in 2018 led the whole minor leagues in walks, in 2019 he struggled in his first 30 MLB at bats...went down to AAA and finished with a .950 OPS at Charlotte and then came up late and put up nearly an .800 OPS in Sept/Oct (over .950 his last dozen games in 2019), and in spring training in 2020 he looked good at the plate.  His problem was we had two all star catchers all ready and a full time DH.   I think he can hit...I hope he can catch.   

You could be right about the steroid police with Cruz.....but the difference I do see between him and EE is EE really appeared to have lost his bat speed. Cruz hasn't. If he hasn't because of steroids......time will answer that question. I hope I'm underestimating Vaughn. What makes me more skeptical is the very fact the only thing we are going off of is that alternate site you mentioned. That truly was nothing more than a simulation no matter how we look at it, and no matter how competitive they tried to make it, it cannot be the same thing as playing an actual game with actual live pitchers trying to get you out in real live game situations. Have to agree to disagree with Collins. Like I said, I'm not impressed with his drawing walks in the minors, which impressed the sabergeeks. You're right in your thinking that knowledge of the strike zone is very important and your comparison to Thomas having that is true. But of course you would agree that Thomas had more than that.  What's important is can Collins HIT major league pitching and he hasn't proven that at all, where as Thomas did right away. I would love to be wrong and for you to throw that one back in my face some day on here. And I know Cruz is 41. I never said I'd want to sign him long term. 

Edited February 8, 2021 by Soxsi75

[michelangelosmonkey]

2 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

How many hitters on the entire Charlotte roster that received regular playing time were under .850?

I guess the key difference is Thomas just tore right through the Sox minor league system from the moment he was drafted...whereas it’s difficult to know what to make of last year development-wise for minor leaguers.  
 

Gordon Beckham and Luis Robert are the only two Sox rookie position players to come right out of the box guns blazing in quite some time.  Anderson held his own, too.   But that’s a lot of pressure to put on a Collins or Vaughn if the team is struggling and there are significant injuries on either side of the roster.   Now Vaughn’s certainly no Brian Anderson psychologically or in terms of work habits, but only those 1993-94 offenses were comparable to 2006, yet there still came a point in the season where Ozzie panicked and went to Mackowiak instead.   We can sit here today and say Vaughn only needs to be around 775 ops, because the rest of the hitters can carry the lineup.  But things don’t usually go as planned.

You mean .950 at Charlotte for Collins?  One of the big dangers for hitters coming to the majors is their lack of knowledge of the strike zone.  Both Vaughn and Collins are supposed to be ++ at that. 

Yes Frank Thomas was drafted...played half a season at A, then half a season at AA and then was brought up.  Vaughn didn't have that chance because of COVID...but again the guys watching him everyday think he's special.   

And yes things don't go as planned...but sometimes...it's just our turn to get lucky. Sometimes #3 pick in the draft turns into Michael Jordan.   It's not crazy to think Vaughn could be special.

  

     

[VAfan]

It's time for the Sox to play Vaughn and Collins. 

Every player has to get their start sometime. Vaughn would have been better than EE LAST year. There's no reason to keep him down again, even for Nelson Cruz, who is a) too expensive, b) possibly a roider, c) 41, and d) unable to field a position. 

Collins has done everything asked of him in AAA. We aren't asking him to catch 160 games. He can catch 40 games, and DH until Vaughn arrives and then blend with Vaughn while he gets up to speed. We want another lefty bat. Well there is Zack Collins staring us all in the face. Why not recognize that he's already in the room? 

Also, someone above posted that Vaughn might hit 7th, followed by Eaton and Madrigal. If that's what Tony decides, okay. If it were me, I'd hit Roberts 7th, and Vaughn/Collins 6th, for two reasons. Vaughn and Collins will have likely have higher OBP than Robert, for him to drive them in with HRs. And Robert has the speed to steal and score on Eaton/Madrigal singles. Add in Anderson and it puts all the Sox speed together in the lineup with no one in between them to clog the bases. 

Lastly, I don't carry water for anyone. I'm just a fan of the Sox, and I'm back on this board because I'm excited about the team. If my team sucks, I don't gravitate to fan blogs to complain. I just do something else. But when my team is good and exciting, I like to write about it. 

[Bob Sacamano]

7 minutes ago, VAfan said:

It's time for the Sox to play Vaughn and Collins. 

Every player has to get their start sometime. Vaughn would have been better than EE LAST year. There's no reason to keep him down again, even for Nelson Cruz, who is a) too expensive, b) possibly a roider, c) 41, and d) unable to field a position. 

Collins has done everything asked of him in AAA. We aren't asking him to catch 160 games. He can catch 40 games, and DH until Vaughn arrives and then blend with Vaughn while he gets up to speed. We want another lefty bat. Well there is Zack Collins staring us all in the face. Why not recognize that he's already in the room? 

Also, someone above posted that Vaughn might hit 7th, followed by Eaton and Madrigal. If that's what Tony decides, okay. If it were me, I'd hit Roberts 7th, and Vaughn/Collins 6th, for two reasons. Vaughn and Collins will have likely have higher OBP than Robert, for him to drive them in with HRs. And Robert has the speed to steal and score on Eaton/Madrigal singles. Add in Anderson and it puts all the Sox speed together in the lineup with no one in between them to clog the bases. 

Lastly, I don't carry water for anyone. I'm just a fan of the Sox, and I'm back on this board because I'm excited about the team. If my team sucks, I don't gravitate to fan blogs to complain. I just do something else. But when my team is good and exciting, I like to write about it. 

Collins ahead of Robert? No.

[South Side Hit Men]

1 hour ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

And the Sox have gone to the playoffs 6 times, won the equivalent of 90 games 8 times and won a WS in JR's 32 year reign...we are above .500 in that time...we aren't the Yankees but not a laughingstock.   In fairness the rebuild has been REALLY hard.   7 years of losing an average of 92 games...the spirits flag...but the future is so bright.     

JR is entering his 41st season as owner, and there is a difference between pointing out their poor past performance and assessing future prospects. A fair assessment of these 40 years is the team had two legitimate World Series pitching staffs and lineups (1983 and 2005). No Bueno, especially when you were owned in the division most seasons by smaller market teams for 35 of the 40 years.

Their future does look brighter. As long as the team targets a starting pitching role for a healthy Crochet, they should have 3-4 solid young pitchers in 2022, not counting Lynn or Keuchel.

If Lynn is solid, you can consider extending (1 year preferable, 1 + team option and buy it would be my max based on age). Can also replace Keuchel with a better / younger option after 2022 if he doesn’t vest.

If they can sustain their improvement in domestic drafts, significantly improve player development (Katz, Cairo, Hasler, Menechino, Narron and the promotion of Getz) and continue with Marco Paddy’s solid Cuban Connection, they can sustain a legitimate WS competitive window beyond 2023/2024.