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NFL 2021 offseason thread

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Alright I'm pro-Trask now.

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Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, Chisoxfn said:

In some ways I actually feel bad for Nagy - it feels like he almost pretty quickly recognized that Mitch wasn't his guy - now he's had to basically be asked which scrapheap would you prefer.  You could say he had a choice - but its not like his choices were that great.  He has had his own issues - but I still think he's a pretty decent overall head coach and I don't know yet whether I could say he's good or terrible at developing QB's.  I know Mitch was okay - and I don't know that Mitch would ever be more than that.  I also know Nagy was pretty involved in Mahomes early development - not sure what if any impact his involvement had vs. Andy Reid or just Mahomes being amazing. I'm sure most of it is Mahomes being amazing but I can't discount that.  

Pace has really done no favors for Nagy - he's had no line and minimal weapons most years. I don't know how much Nagy has been on board with all the moves or what - they seem pretty aligned - but I don't know that Nagy really could have told Pace much different on Mitch (at least not until the year he fell down).  

I disagree. The guy doesn't know his personnel. At some point, you pound your fist, say we need an OL a lot more than we need Robert Quinn. He was hired in large part because he really liked Mitch. Maybe Mitch was going to suck no matter what. But he never wavered until this year and he is the reason Foles is on the roster. Foles was a waste of not just money, but a draft pick as well. His offense is not good. Seems like a nice guy, but IMO, the guy is an assistant coach.

A guy who really knew what he was doing would make it clear to Ryan Pace he isn't the smartest guy in the room. It is really appalling George McCaskey is wasting another year with these clowns. 

Edited by Dick Allen
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Damien Williams was a very logical depth signing for Bears at RB.  

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, Chisoxfn said:

Damien Williams was a very logical depth signing for Bears at RB.  

For sure.  The interesting thing about our off-season is that I actually really like all the smaller signings we've made.  Bringing back Edwards Jr, Bush, and Ifedi.  Jones is good MLB depth. Williams at RB.  Blackmon at DL. Wilkinson as a swing OT with some starting experience.  Those are quality depth signings, but they don't really matter until the QB position is fixed.  And these signings would go over a lot better if we hadn't had to release Fuller to sign Dalton. 

This is off topic, but I still can't get over Robert Quinn being on the roster - it was an odd signing at the time and a real risk given Quinn has had stretches of bad play in the past and he was on the wrong side of 30.  Think about how much this roster could have been improved without his contract on the books.  That money should have been earmarked to upgrade OT last year or this year.  It just bugs me that our weakest position in 2019 was totally neglected in the 2020 off-season except for bringing in a new OL coach (even though Harry Hiestand is generally known as one of the better OL coaches in football).  We had cap space at the time and a real opportunity to bring in, say, Jack Conklin for less money than we paid Quinn.  Think how much better off our OL would be heading into next year.

Edited by dasox24
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4 hours ago, Chisoxfn said:

In some ways I actually feel bad for Nagy - it feels like he almost pretty quickly recognized that Mitch wasn't his guy - now he's had to basically be asked which scrapheap would you prefer.  You could say he had a choice - but its not like his choices were that great.  He has had his own issues - but I still think he's a pretty decent overall head coach and I don't know yet whether I could say he's good or terrible at developing QB's.  I know Mitch was okay - and I don't know that Mitch would ever be more than that.  I also know Nagy was pretty involved in Mahomes early development - not sure what if any impact his involvement had vs. Andy Reid or just Mahomes being amazing. I'm sure most of it is Mahomes being amazing but I can't discount that.  

Pace has really done no favors for Nagy - he's had no line and minimal weapons most years. I don't know how much Nagy has been on board with all the moves or what - they seem pretty aligned - but I don't know that Nagy really could have told Pace much different on Mitch (at least not until the year he fell down).  

Wasn’t it Nagy who wanted Foles?

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What does Antonio Brown fetch in free agency? Rus, who has applauded recent Seahawks moves btw, wants the Seahawks to sign him. Would it be worthwhile to try and further drive a wedge between them.....if there's really even a wedge there. 

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Chisoxfn said:

but I still think he's a pretty decent overall head coach and I don't know yet whether I could say he's good or terrible at developing QB's.   

Pace has really done no favors for Nagy - he's had no line and minimal weapons most years. 

I disagree with you on Nagy. Its true he has SOME positive attributes that help to make a good head coach. (He has a positive outlook, hes a good communicator, and his teams play for him & support him.)

But Nagy has MORE attributes that lead him to be pretty mediocre: he seems disinterested in supervising other coaches, his teams are generally soft and lack toughness, his teams lack the fit & finish of championship teams, he's too accommodating and permissive as a task master, his play designs are often too cute, and in general, he really just wants to be an unsupervised OC, instead of the CEO of everything that occurs on-field.

 

As for Pace, he also has some positive attributes: he's positive in the media, he's not afraid to be aggressive in pursuing a player, & he has a good eye for DEFENSIVE players, especially in the middle rounds of a draft.

But, he also lacks the understanding of roster economics, he fails at asset allocation, he gives up draft picks like a $10 whore, he constantly has to re-acquire positions where he just acquired a player previously, he can't think tactically or strategically, and he fails to seek help in areas that he's lacking understanding.

 

Honestly, the best thing for the BEARS would be to fire both of them. The best thing for Nagy himself and Pace himself, is for them to get fired. That way, maybe they can learn from their mistakes, & get better at their craft. Hell, Belichick got fired, and he's pretty much the greatest football mind of our generation.

 

In my mind, both Nagy and Pace are too high in the team structure, given their skill sets and knowledge bases. Pace should be a scouting director, not a GM. Nagy should either be a position coach or OC, not a head coach.

Edited by Two-Gun Pete

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2 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Wasn’t it Nagy who wanted Foles?

I don’t think someone said - hey we can trade up for a qb - I think he had a lot of bad options and said Foles was the best of those bad options. At the time - Dalton was not yet available so I don’t know that they had a lot of other choices. I can’t think of any good qb moves that happened last offseason. 

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10 hours ago, Chisoxfn said:

I think Trask has a pretty good floor - he will be a long time back-up in this league.  Mills intrigues...for whatever reason never saw it with Mond.  Too much mediocre play on film.  

Like you - I just take any of the top 5 and hope they pan out.  I figure there is so much luck that goes into it that margin of error is high anyway.  

Just my opinion, but I don't think that Trask makes it to the Bears 2nd round pick. I think he's a prime candidate for a team to trade up to the 30-32 spots in the 1st round so the team gets the 5th year option. 

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8 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Just my opinion, but I don't think that Trask makes it to the Bears 2nd round pick. I think he's a prime candidate for a team to trade up to the 30-32 spots in the 1st round so the team gets the 5th year option. 

You might be right - but I don't see it. I think after the top 5 - it could actually be that Trask falls even further.  I think the teams that want to move up - will do so for the other 5.  Also with the depth at oline and wideout I'm going to guess it gets harder for teams to priortize QB (Those that care will have gotten it and the rest are more looking at back-ups/flyers).  

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11 hours ago, Chisoxfn said:

I don’t think someone said - hey we can trade up for a qb - I think he had a lot of bad options and said Foles was the best of those bad options. At the time - Dalton was not yet available so I don’t know that they had a lot of other choices. I can’t think of any good qb moves that happened last offseason. 

Then go with Mitch as your guy until Dalton becomes available.  It was not like it was breaking news he would be released from Cincinnati  They failed on the Foles evaluation and then overpaid dearly, in draft pick and cash, for a smoking pile of crap.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Harry Chappas said:

Then go with Mitch as your guy until Dalton becomes available.  It was not like it was breaking news he would be released from Cincinnati  They failed on the Foles evaluation and then overpaid dearly, in draft pick and cash, for a smoking pile of crap.

 

 

This is definitely my thing. I just don't believe the difference between foles or dalton and "worst case scenario" justifies the bears actions. Had they not traded for Foles, or not signed Dalton, what would be available in a month or two seems very comparable to those situations. I don't think Mariota takes the paycut if he knows the bears are out there waiting for a QB.

It was horribly obvious that Dalton and Newton would get cut if there was no trade partner. And now, all signs pointing to Jets taking Wilson. I can't believe they'd keep Darnold. Is Darnold worse than Dalton - definitely/maybe. But he's not so much better he changes bears trajectory in any way.

Other QBs possible to be dislodged post draft/june 1st:

- Bridgewater (though I could see him being a bridge no pun intended)

- Tua (unlikely)

- Gardner Minshew

- Nick Mullens/Jimmy G

- Alex Smith

All probably worse than Dalton to degrees that don't matter because Dalton isn't very good. But all could be much cheaper through various means, and that $5.5-$6 million could have been super handy to, say, re-sign Allen robinson or Kyle fuller.

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Good Bears news. Dick Stockton is retiring. We will never have to listen to him butcher a Bears game again.

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Active streaks of teams not having a 4,000-yard passer:
 

  • Buffalo, Indianapolis, Houston, Kansas City, Las Vegas, Los Angeles Chargers, Tampa Bay, Atlanta, Green Bay, Minnesota, Detroit, Seattle - 0
  • New England, Dallas, Philadelphia, Los Angeles Rams - 1
  • Pittsburgh, New York Giants - 2
  • Washington, New Orleans - 3
  • Baltimore, Cincinnati, Arizona - 4
  • Miami, Jacksonville - 5
  • Denver - 6
  • Carolina - 9
  • San Francisco - 20
  • Tennessee - 29
  • Cleveland - 40
  • New York Jets - 53
  • Chicago - 101

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Niners just got the 3rd pick - Dolphins get 12th pick, 3rd round pick + 2 more 1st round picks. Phins have a TON of draft capital.  Wonder who grabs Jimmy G.  

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Posted (edited)

 

Edited by Jack Parkman

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Phins than move up with Eagles for 6th overall pick + pick #156 - giving up the #12 they just got from the Niners + pick #123 - 2022 1st round pick.  Not sure what the Phins are targeting - but presume they want best available non QB or close to it.  

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Basically if you want a QB at this point - you need to pay more than the Niners did with the Jets - who might be the only team on the fence.  Other than Jets - pretty clear top 4 picks are going to be QB's - which means you have pick 5/6 as the non QB picks.  

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I love this, the more trades the better.

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It will be interesting who the Niners are targeting. I wonder if it is Mac Jones or if they have basically zeroed in on 3 guys and said - hey we are good with any of them.  Would Pace give up the same package + Mack (or someone else) to get up to #2 and would that be enough?  I have no idea.  Feels like the market is set for almost any of the available options.  

And any odds that the Bears have a QB fall to them (of the top 5) - have to be ZERO.  

Note: I shouldn't post this - cause I no no one agrees with me on it. But this is just more proof that the last thing anyone should ever hold against Pace is the fact that he gave up a day 3 pick or whatever it was to move up 1 pick to get the QB he had #1 on his list.  If you have an issue - it is that he had the WRONG QB #1 on the list - not that he had the conviction to give up a 3rd rounder or whatever it was to secure that. I don't care whomever says he negotiated against himself or whatever it is - QB is way too important not to get that guy you have conviction for (if the conviction is that much > than the others).  

Would anyone be saying anything if it was Mahomes he gave up that pick for? No - everyone would be going Lynch - WHAT WERE YOU THINKING.  The Niners seem to get it - they know they are going nowhere with Jimmy G and took another shot. They aren't in that different of a position than the Bears.  They had there breakout year - than regressed massively (Jimmy G wasn't who they thought he was / they dealt with injuries).  They have a younger D than the Bears - but still - same boat - mediocre QB and now they mortgaged a lot of draft capital to try and get that guy. If it works - no one complains - if it doesn't - the whole front office will be gone and someone else will be and will try again (and by that point - they'll have their picks back).  

But a miss with that trade-up will basically set the franchise back 4-5 years (given how much into the future they have borrowed). A hit and they are money. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Chisoxfn said:

Note: I shouldn't post this - cause I no no one agrees with me on it. But this is just more proof that the last thing anyone should ever hold against Pace is the fact 1. that he gave up a day 3 pick or whatever it was to move up 1 pick to get the QB he had #1 on his list.  If you have an issue - it is that he had the WRONG QB #1 on the list - not that he had the conviction to give up a 3rd rounder or whatever it was to secure that.

 

2. I don't care whomever says he negotiated against himself or whatever it is 

3. But a miss with that trade-up will basically set the franchise back 4-5 years (given how much into the future they have borrowed). A hit and they are money. 

1. It was TWO 3rd round picks and a 4th. A decent front office should be able to find AT LEAST ONE starter for the roster, if not two out of that group of picks given away, and perhaps a special teams player. Especially picks that were HIGH in the draft, as the BEARS' were that year.

When a team accumulates such mistakes [as Pace's front office has], it leads to salary cap hell, and productive players given away for nothing.

 

2. Well, you should care about this. It shows that Pace can neither think tactically, nor strategically. It also makes him the sucker of the entire league, which weakens his future negotiating ability with enemy front offices and player agents. When a GM is too stoopid to understand the situation at hand, AND he negotiates against himself, every other GM and player agent will try to rip him off. Over time, it increases the cost of doing business for the team that is unfortunate to have him working for them. 

 

3. Pace played D-Line in college, so it makes sense that he knows defensive talent fairly well. Pace also worked for a New Orleans team that had a HOF QB in its roster, so he never ever had to bother with looking for a QB. What is further damaging to the BEARS and to Pace's reputation is that he was so stoopid and egotistical, that he failed to listen to others and to seek help in making an unfamiliar decision. It is widely reported that he did NOT consult the rest of the room when he honed in on Trubisky. 

A true leader utilizes the talent of the people around him, in order to come up with the best possible solution to a problem. Pace knew NOTHING about scouting QBs, yet STILL went his own way, and negotiated against himself, and crapped his pants. There is actually nothing admirable about the Trubisky pick, nor any of the process that went into it.

I knew back then that Pace would be a failure of a GM, and have waited ever since 2017 for him to be fired. It is inevitable at this point. And YES, stoopidly cutting Cutler when there was no other option available, AND giving Mike Glennon $45MM to suck out loud, AND trading up to get Trubisky, AND trading away a pick for the right to overpay Foles, AND overpaying for Dalton are all unforced errors. And yes, you're right: The BEARS have been set back 4-5 years or more.

Edited by Two-Gun Pete

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I won’t say I was thrilled with pace giving up that much to move up when it was likely he could get his guy anyways, BUT totally agree that a good GM goes and gets his guy.  Problem is his guy didn’t pan out, even then Pace said his tenure depends on that working out.  So good for Pace to get his guy, but when it doesn’t workout and you are still failing to get your guy, then we should have moved on.

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3 hours ago, bigruss said:

I won’t say I was thrilled with pace giving up that much to move up when it was likely he could get his guy anyways, BUT totally agree that a good GM goes and gets his guy.  Problem is his guy didn’t pan out, even then Pace said his tenure depends on that working out.  So good for Pace to get his guy, but when it doesn’t workout and you are still failing to get your guy, then we should have moved on.

That’s been my entire premise as well. 

I like that Pace went all in for his QB. That’s the type of GM I want. But....when you go all-in at the poker table and it doesn’t work out...you have to leave the table. The issue is George and Ted keep giving Ryan more chips to play with. 

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If the Bears don’t find a way to trade up in the draft for a QB, which is admittedly looking harder by the second, then it might be two years before we find a possible long-term option.  Next year’s team shouldn’t be good, but will they be bad enough for a top 5 selection?  I really doubt it.  And assuming the 2022 class isn’t nearly as deep, it should be much harder to move up if there are only a couple high end options.  Point is, keeping Pace & Nagy around is simply delaying the need to tank for a high end QB prospect and we’re going to be stuck in purgatory until that happens.  I know many here don’t want them taking a shot at another QB prospect, but IMO we’re just spinning in circles until we get that spot fixed once and for all.

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