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Eminor3rd

Munenori Kawasaki on why he loves Mark Buehrle

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Posted (edited)

Buehrle is just the man. How can you not like that guy?

Edited by ron883

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Most pitchers could take a cue from Buehrle and pitch at twice their current pace IMO.  They over-think the process.

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6 hours ago, Dominikk85 said:

Kawasaki is an extremely hilarious dude

 

Watch some snippets here 

Imatitating Bautista homerun celebration

On mastering English language 

 

 

Another classic 😂

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Here's a question to think about: if MB pitched in Cy Young's era, how many games would have won?  How many CGs?  What kind of lifetime ERA?  This is a guy who IMO gets into the HOF in a lot of other eras.  For the modern era, he's still borderline deserving IMO, and beyond that, I think it's tougher for a guy with Buehrle's talent to pitch his way to FA and accumulate that kind of MLB service time than it is for a player like Frank to get into the Hall.  And also, what a deceptively excellent natural athlete Buehrle was as well.  Never looked the part, but defensively he showed it several times.  And his control was also proof of that exceptional athletic ability.

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10 minutes ago, YourWhatHurts said:

Here's a question to think about: if MB pitched in Cy Young's era, how many games would have won?  How many CGs?  What kind of lifetime ERA?  This is a guy who IMO gets into the HOF in a lot of other eras.  For the modern era, he's still borderline deserving IMO, and beyond that, I think it's tougher for a guy with Buehrle's talent to pitch his way to FA and accumulate that kind of MLB service time than it is for a player like Frank to get into the Hall.  And also, what a deceptively excellent natural athlete Buehrle was as well.  Never looked the part, but defensively he showed it several times.  And his control was also proof of that exceptional athletic ability.

If Adam Engel played in Ty Cobb's era, would he be a HOFer?

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15 hours ago, Eminor3rd said:

 

Nice find. Thanks for sharing. Explains why MB was such a great fielding pitcher too. Did he ever win a gold glove? Can't remember.

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Fun fact: the last 9-inning MLB game to finish in under 2 hours was started by Mark Buehrle and Chris Sale.

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6 minutes ago, YourWhatHurts said:

No.

I bet he would be

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16 minutes ago, ron883 said:

I bet he would be

Why?

A much harder baseball, much bigger fields with more foul territory to yield flyball putouts, fences much farther back so HRs much more difficult, and still RHPs throwing the ball.  Adam Engel is an easy no. He's so far been a platoon player with power but not massive power who can crush diminished stuff inside of a smaller ballpark without much foul grounds, but as a guy with a lot of K and flyballs in his game, I'm not sure why anyone would think he'd be some great bet for success.  I mean there are probably a lot of guys in today's game who won't make the HOF in the modern era who maybe could have in an earlier time, but Adam Engel definitely isn't the kind of player that makes that list.

Did you put thought into that?   Are you trying to make the statement that today's athletes and players are so much better that basically all of the legends of the past should be viewed as something like bench players or AAAA types in comparison?

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9 minutes ago, YourWhatHurts said:

Why?

A much harder baseball, much bigger fields with more foul territory to yield flyball putouts, fences much farther back so HRs much more difficult, and still RHPs throwing the ball.  Adam Engel is an easy no. He's so far been a platoon player with power but not massive power who can crush diminished stuff inside of a smaller ballpark without much foul grounds, but as a guy with a lot of K and flyballs in his game, I'm not sure why anyone would think he'd be some great bet for success.  I mean there are probably a lot of guys in today's game who won't make the HOF in the modern era who maybe could have in an earlier time, but Adam Engel definitely isn't the kind of player that makes that list.

Did you put thought into that?   Are you trying to make the statement that today's athletes and players are so much better that basically all of the legends of the past should be viewed as something like bench players or AAAA types in comparison?

Walter Johnson's fastball was measured at 91.36 MPH in a laboratory in 1917. He was the best of the best. I'm guessing hitting 90 mph was rare back then, and 85 mph was the norm. Adam Engel would crush that type of stuff. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, YourWhatHurts said:

Why?

A much harder baseball, much bigger fields with more foul territory to yield flyball putouts, fences much farther back so HRs much more difficult, and still RHPs throwing the ball.  Adam Engel is an easy no. He's so far been a platoon player with power but not massive power who can crush diminished stuff inside of a smaller ballpark without much foul grounds, but as a guy with a lot of K and flyballs in his game, I'm not sure why anyone would think he'd be some great bet for success.  I mean there are probably a lot of guys in today's game who won't make the HOF in the modern era who maybe could have in an earlier time, but Adam Engel definitely isn't the kind of player that makes that list.

Did you put thought into that?   Are you trying to make the statement that today's athletes and players are so much better that basically all of the legends of the past should be viewed as something like bench players or AAAA types in comparison?

Oh come on man, Engel would easily be a star. He would be in better physical shape than anyone on the field by a LONGSHOT. The average fastball was probably in the 70s. These guys worked in factories in the offseason. There was basically no such thing as "training" in any meaningful context related to athleticism. The extent to which all of these guys abused alcohol DURING the season may, if anything, be understated. Not only was the league not even racially integrated, but nothing even remotely close to the network of youth baseball training existed in any form whatsoever. The talent pool form which these guys were selected was maybe 10% of what it is now. The level of biomechanical knowledge that the average random High School coach possesses today would be practically science fiction then. Was nutrition and diet planning even a thing? The LIFE EXPECTANCY of people was probably at least 10-20 years shorter on average. They were selling cocaine a corner stores. It wasn't totally clear that the moon wasn't actually made of cheese.

None of this is to take anything away from those old-timey players -- everyone should be judged in the context in which they exist, it's only fair. But you put anyone from the early part of the century in today's game, it would astonishing if they could even crack a 40-man roster. 

There's a reason why athletic records continue to be broken. Progress is made, and the gains pile up quite a bit over several generations.

Now, you take a Ty Cobb and make him born in the year 2000 and give him access to elite baseball training from age 12, maybe he's still a Hall of Famer. You take Adam Engel and make him born in 1890 and work on a farm in upstate New York until he's 24 and then have him take a train to the city to join a baseball club and figure out how to make a living while barely literate, and maybe he's still a scrub.

Edited by Eminor3rd
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2 hours ago, ScooterMcGee said:

Nice find. Thanks for sharing. Explains why MB was such a great fielding pitcher too. Did he ever win a gold glove? Can't remember.

Yeah, I believe he won multiple gold gloves, actually.

He really was a treasure. Super fun to watch.

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13 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said:

Oh come on man, Engel would easily be a star. He would be in better physical shape than anyone on the field by a LONGSHOT. The average fastball was probably in the 70s. These guys worked in factories in the offseason. There was basically no such thing as "training" in any meaningful context related to athleticism. The extent to which all of these guys abused alcohol DURING the season may, if anything, be understated. Not only was the league not even racially integrated, but nothing even remotely close to the network of youth baseball training existed in any form whatsoever. The talent pool form which these guys were selected was maybe 10% of what it is now. The level of biomechanical knowledge that the average random High School coach possesses today would be practically science fiction then. Was nutrition and diet planning even a thing? The LIFE EXPECTANCY of people was probably at least 10-20 years shorter on average. They were selling cocaine a corner stores. It wasn't totally clear that the moon wasn't actually made of cheese.

None of this is to take anything away from those old-timey players -- everyone should be judged in the context in which they exist, it's only fair. But you put anyone from the early part of the century in today's game, it would astonishing if they could even crack a 40-man roster. 

There's a reason why athletic records continue to be broken. Progress is made, and the gains pile up quite a bit over several generations.

Now, you take a Ty Cobb and make him born in the year 2000 and give him access to elite baseball training from age 12, maybe he's still a Hall of Famer. You take Adam Engel and make him born in 1890 and work on a farm in upstate New York until he's 24 and then have him take a train to the city to join a baseball club and figure out how to make a living while barely literate, and maybe he's still a scrub.

If Engel played in the same parks with the same bats and same baseballs, he would be a mediocre player.  And if Adam Engel in high school tried to play at the MLB level he never would have made the cut, and rather than be developed in a very long and detailed process, probably would have gone on to work in a factory or in some mine somewhere.

If the Adam Engel of 2021 could get into a time machine, go back to 1917, play in a game the same way as every one else, then at the end of the game get back in the time machine, go home, eat 2021 food, take 2021 supplements, train on 2021 equipment with 2021 trainers, etc., and repeat this process for an entire season, I still don't think he's a great player.  

You guys are really overestimating Adam's strength and physical capability and underestimating the weight and constitution of the old balls and the size of the old stadiums they used to play in.  Go try to hit spitballer or knuckleballer or sinkerballer throwing something that's probably closer to a fishing weight than the balls of today, without these new bats that make everything go father, with all the added challenges of extra OF space and extra foul territory.

I mean come on.  It's not called "the dead ball era" because players weren't strong.  And in terms of physical conditioning, Adam Engel is probably in the top 10% or so of the league as it is, and guess what, he's a still platoon player now.  People were strong back then, too.  He doesn't have elite HR power or bat speed now, and he still wouldn't then.

IMO (to make ron883 happy) I think Yermin could maybe be a star back then, with the time machine scenario I laid out for Engel.

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3 hours ago, YourWhatHurts said:

Why?

A much harder baseball, much bigger fields with more foul territory to yield flyball putouts, fences much farther back so HRs much more difficult, and still RHPs throwing the ball.  Adam Engel is an easy no. He's so far been a platoon player with power but not massive power who can crush diminished stuff inside of a smaller ballpark without much foul grounds, but as a guy with a lot of K and flyballs in his game, I'm not sure why anyone would think he'd be some great bet for success.  I mean there are probably a lot of guys in today's game who won't make the HOF in the modern era who maybe could have in an earlier time, but Adam Engel definitely isn't the kind of player that makes that list.

Did you put thought into that?   Are you trying to make the statement that today's athletes and players are so much better that basically all of the legends of the past should be viewed as something like bench players or AAAA types in comparison?

Engel or any other current mlb bench player would probably extremely dominate if time machined to 1910 simply because pitchers threw like 83 instead of 95, it is like facing division 3 college pitching (and most pro players would probably hit 400 at the d3 level). 

However of course he also wouldn't be as good if he grew up with 1910 training methods and nutrition and if he had to work full time in the off season like many players at the time did. 

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1 hour ago, YourWhatHurts said:

If Engel played in the same parks with the same bats and same baseballs, he would be a mediocre player.  And if Adam Engel in high school tried to play at the MLB level he never would have made the cut, and rather than be developed in a very long and detailed process, probably would have gone on to work in a factory or in some mine somewhere.

If the Adam Engel of 2021 could get into a time machine, go back to 1917, play in a game the same way as every one else, then at the end of the game get back in the time machine, go home, eat 2021 food, take 2021 supplements, train on 2021 equipment with 2021 trainers, etc., and repeat this process for an entire season, I still don't think he's a great player.  

You guys are really overestimating Adam's strength and physical capability and underestimating the weight and constitution of the old balls and the size of the old stadiums they used to play in.  Go try to hit spitballer or knuckleballer or sinkerballer throwing something that's probably closer to a fishing weight than the balls of today, without these new bats that make everything go father, with all the added challenges of extra OF space and extra foul territory.

I mean come on.  It's not called "the dead ball era" because players weren't strong.  And in terms of physical conditioning, Adam Engel is probably in the top 10% or so of the league as it is, and guess what, he's a still platoon player now.  People were strong back then, too.  He doesn't have elite HR power or bat speed now, and he still wouldn't then.

IMO (to make ron883 happy) I think Yermin could maybe be a star back then, with the time machine scenario I laid out for Engel.

But all of those disadvantages you listed apply equally to every player in that era, while NONE of the training and physical advantages that Engel has would apply to anyone EXCEPT him. Also, his best tool is his footspeed -- extra OF space would be to his advantage compared to an average player on BOTH sides of the ball. He'd have well above average defensive range like he does even today, and if you're arguing he'd hit fewer homeruns, well then he'd hit more doubles and triples because there'd would be more balls that fall in the OF.

We can agree to disagree, but if I'm underestimated the physical differences in the park and the balls, I think you are underestimating the unbelievable difference in training methods (both in terms of athletic training and baseball skills training). Those guys may have been strong for their era, but even a regimen of manual labor is not going to hold a candle to state-of-the-art modern strength and conditioning training and diet. I also think you're underestimating the crucible of being able to hit a 95+ mph pitch, and specifically what it says about the talent of even a fringe 2021 Major Leaguer like Engel.

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16 minutes ago, Dominikk85 said:

Engel or any other current mlb bench player would probably extremely dominate if time machined to 1910 simply because pitchers threw like 83 instead of 95, it is like facing division 3 college pitching (and most pro players would probably hit 400 at the d3 level). 

However of course he also wouldn't be as good if he grew up with 1910 training methods and nutrition and if he had to work full time in the off season like many players at the time did. 

Right -- I can totally believe that guys like Cobb were way more TALENTED than Engel, meaning all things being equal Engel would be a scrub. But all things are VERY much not equal.

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3 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said:

Right -- I can totally believe that guys like Cobb were way more TALENTED than Engel, meaning all things being equal Engel would be a scrub. But all things are VERY much not equal.

Wasn’t one of the things about Cobb that he actually tried to professionalize baseball and actually, like, tried hard and trained? 
 

Definitely a dude that would have benefitted from modern training/salary

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Time Traveler Adam Engel probably obliterates the record books in ways that you only see in MLB: The Show.

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