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The Andrew Vaughn LF Thread

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9 minutes ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

We are not doing this so we can get Collins bat in the lineup.  We are doing it so we can keep both Vaughn and Eloy long term. This isn't that hard to figure out

Vaughn can't play first base anymore or something?

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8 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Yes, love Men at Work.

Should definitely have a lively conversation for as long as this lasts. La Russa's Carlton Fisk in Left Field plan lasted 31 games before Hawk rightly put his foot down and said enough is enough. Not sure if that number is too high for the under/over on this "experiment".

Just putting way to much on a 22 year old kid. it's hard enough to adjust to ML pitching straight from A ball. Add trying to learn a position on the fly with a significant risk of injury with no OF experience. Don't agree with the idea of getting cute with Hahn's pathetic roster depth and construction, stacked with seven players qualified to only field three positions (C 1B DH), and no OFers in the minors after years of tanking and drafting high. 

Suck it up, have Tony go into Jerry's office with the jaws of life to pry open Reinsdorf's wallet, or suck it up with the shitty roster depth and the limited actual OFers Hahn assembled until Engel returns, and then you have two platoon guys manning the corners at least until the trade deadline. You also better hope Adam Eaton, another player who doesn't know his physical limitations, can stay healthy for a good portion of the season. If this was Ricky Renteria's cockamamie plan, this board would go ape shit over it.

You have the Fisk experiment completely wrong.  It was 100% Harrelson's idea, LaRussa was completely opposed.  It was a major part of the feud that led to LaRussa's firing. 

I do agree that Vaughn should not be our left fielder.

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It is asking a lot for a guy who hasn't played above A ball to debut in the major leagues at a new position.  Hopefully they can somehow acquire a legit OF quickly, and move Vaughn back to DH/1B.

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1 minute ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Played in LF frequently in Schaumburg? What? At most I read he took "some reps" in LF. His primary work was at 1st base since he was a first baseman. He also took "some reps" at third base. He's not a third baseman.

You are tying up my argument in semantics.  No one knows precisely how much he played LF in Schaumburg but we know with certainty that they were trying to get him into the lineup and were trying him at LF and as he was there all day in Schaumburg for months I suspect every day for months they had him do some LF work.    The real point is LF is one of the least valuable defensive positions in baseball and the one in the outfield where you can hide a bad arm. The Red Sox managed two World Series with a terrible fielding LF.   I suspect Vaughn will be a bad LF but so was Eloy.   It seems the real choice you make is Collins bat verses Leury's glove...which will add more value.   Nothing is certain but I'd bet on Collins bat.  

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8 minutes ago, ThirdGen said:

You have the Fisk experiment completely wrong.  It was 100% Harrelson's idea, LaRussa was completely opposed.  It was a major part of the feud that led to LaRussa's firing. 

I do agree that Vaughn should not be our left fielder.

Carlton Fisk was 38 years old when they tried him in LF after spending 20 years squatting.   As unathletic as Vaughn may be, he's 23 with fresh legs.  It is a suboptimal solution but...Eloy is gone, Engel is gone all and of our OF prospects lost 2020 to the Covid.  In trying times you try things out.        

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So Vaughn in LF means a Collins/Lucroy or Collins Mercedes platoon at DH. The question then becomes, does that DH platoon give you more offensive added value over Engel/Garcia than Engel/Garcia give you in added defensive value over Vaughn in LF.

When you add in Robert's ability to cover a bit for a sub-par LF, I think it does.

There is also the option of splitting the difference, having Collins DH and Vaughn in LF vs RHP, but Garcia in LF and Vaughn DH vs RHP.

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3 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Carlton Fisk was 38 years old when they tried him in LF after spending 20 years squatting.   As unathletic as Vaughn may be, he's 23 with fresh legs.  It is a suboptimal solution but...Eloy is gone, Engel is gone all and of our OF prospects lost 2020 to the Covid.  In trying times you try things out.        

Vaughn definitely has a better chance than Fisk did. Fisk was completely opposed to the move, Vaughn has reason to be agreeable.  And he can definitely move better and adjust better at 23 than Fisk could at 38.  I just think everyone is underestimating how difficult the OF is.   Reading the ball against the high sky in Arizona is different than a night game at GRF, different than a day game in overcast weather, different than in a dome.  The correct first step, correct routes, its the difference between outs and extra base hits.  And most MLB OF's spend years in the minors or college learning that.  We're giving this guy a week.  When he also needs to focus on hitting MLB pitching with limited MiLB experience.  He is being set up for failure.  And he is every bit as likely to run into a wall (including the dangerous low walls at GRF in foul ground) as Eloy was.  The only advantage is he is too short and probably doesn't have the vertical leap to get hung up on any outfield walls like Eloy did.

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I think the platoon at DH should be Vaughn and collins. 

Against RHP: 

Collins DH and Vaughn LF

 

Against LHP: 

Vaughn DH and whoever RHB/switch batter in LF (maybe leury and later Engel) 

Collins has improved but is still better used against RHP and thus against LHP you get Vaughns glove out of the Of. 

 

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52 minutes ago, SCCWS said:

Who would be considered our best AAA/AA outfield prospect?   Any options there?

Like as in major league ready?  Probably Luis Gonzalez.  Obviously Nick Williams is another option theoretically. 

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19 minutes ago, WhiteSoxFan1993 said:

So Vaughn in LF means a Collins/Lucroy or Collins Mercedes platoon at DH. The question then becomes, does that DH platoon give you more offensive added value over Engel/Garcia than Engel/Garcia give you in added defensive value over Vaughn in LF.

When you add in Robert's ability to cover a bit for a sub-par LF, I think it does.

There is also the option of splitting the difference, having Collins DH and Vaughn in LF vs RHP, but Garcia in LF and Vaughn DH vs RHP.

Leury & Engel both hit LHP well, so you probably rock both of them (when healthy) in the corners against LHP and go with Vaughn in LF and Collins at DH against RHP.  Lucroy should never be part of the DH plans IMO.

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30 minutes ago, ThirdGen said:

Vaughn definitely has a better chance than Fisk did. Fisk was completely opposed to the move, Vaughn has reason to be agreeable.  And he can definitely move better and adjust better at 23 than Fisk could at 38.  I just think everyone is underestimating how difficult the OF is.   Reading the ball against the high sky in Arizona is different than a night game at GRF, different than a day game in overcast weather, different than in a dome.  The correct first step, correct routes, its the difference between outs and extra base hits.  And most MLB OF's spend years in the minors or college learning that.  We're giving this guy a week.  When he also needs to focus on hitting MLB pitching with limited MiLB experience.  He is being set up for failure.  And he is every bit as likely to run into a wall (including the dangerous low walls at GRF in foul ground) as Eloy was.  The only advantage is he is too short and probably doesn't have the vertical leap to get hung up on any outfield walls like Eloy did.

He's a pro ballplayer he will be fine.  The fainting couch is getting a good workout this spring from Sox fans tho.

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Just now, chitownsportsfan said:

He's a pro ballplayer he will be fine.  The fainting couch is getting a good workout this spring from Sox fans tho.

Eloy is also a pro ballplayer.  He will also be fine.  After surgery and a six month recovery, that is.

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1 hour ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

I'm not sure I follow...are you saying this is the long term switch of Vaughn to LF and Eloy to DH?   I think this is really the thing that will make Collins our long term C.  He will prove to be such a valuable left handed bat at DH this year and a passable C that it will be penciled in as full time catcher by...2023?      

Absolutely. That's the goal.

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1 hour ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Vaughn can't play first base anymore or something?

Vaughn will go to first when Abreu's contract is up.  Just has to last 2 years

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1 minute ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

Vaughn will go to first when Abreu's contract is up.  Just has to last 2 years

Why would anyone think the Sox will move on from Abreu when his deal is over?

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3 minutes ago, fathom said:

Why would anyone think the Sox will move on from Abreu when his deal is over?

Because you have Eloy and Vaughn in positions that don't work long term (if we are looking for long term success).  

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1 hour ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

You are tying up my argument in semantics.  No one knows precisely how much he played LF in Schaumburg but we know with certainty that they were trying to get him into the lineup and were trying him at LF and as he was there all day in Schaumburg for months I suspect every day for months they had him do some LF work.    The real point is LF is one of the least valuable defensive positions in baseball and the one in the outfield where you can hide a bad arm. The Red Sox managed two World Series with a terrible fielding LF.   I suspect Vaughn will be a bad LF but so was Eloy.   It seems the real choice you make is Collins bat verses Leury's glove...which will add more value.   Nothing is certain but I'd bet on Collins bat.  

It's not semantics. You literally said he played left field frequently; something that there is zero proof of.

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40 minutes ago, fathom said:

Why would anyone think the Sox will move on from Abreu when his deal is over?

 

37 minutes ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

Because you have Eloy and Vaughn in positions that don't work long term (if we are looking for long term success).  

 

With a new CBA and the volatility of rosters, I'm not even going to try and speculate what the roster looks like two years from now.

Our OF might be Colas-Robert-Cespedes with Eloy DHing and Vaughn at first, with Collins catching. Or one of (or both) of Colas/Cespedes bust, Eloy improves his defense (via some sort of magic), Abreu keeps mashing and stays at DH. Maybe Vaughn puts in crazy work and becomes a LF. Hell, they could expand the rosters in the new CBA.

There's a lot of ways Abreu could be on the roster in 2023.

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2 hours ago, Tony said:

I don't know how old you are, but based on your last 20 posts....you sound like an 8 year old who didn't get his way. 

Yes, Eloy shouldn't have done what he did. Yes, he put this team is a precarious position. But shit happens. Corey Crawford broke his foot at a concert. Bill Gramatica tore his ACL celebrating. Kendry Morales broke his leg jumping on home plate after hitting a grand slam. None of them make what Eloy did right, but shit happens. 

And everyone is in agreement if the Sox don't make the playoffs this year, with or without Eloy, it would be a massive disappointment. So....what are we going to do about it right now? The season hasn't even started yet. 

The moral of the story? 

5KXN.gif

Hey look man. No reason to get personal here.  Yeah......I know shit happens. Injuries are most certainly a part of baseball and all sports. But you know what? What's ironic is every example you gave are all examples of self inflicted idiocy. Just like what Eloy did. So to have your year potentially destroyed over something that stupid..... And giving other examples of athletes doing something stupid doesn't make this OK.  And truthfully, whether it's good to hear or not, everything I said, right now as of today, it's factually true. Sorry if pointing out what the White Sox have done over the course of the last five years makes me a "dickwad."  Hey look, you're right. The season hasn't started yet. And if everything turns out OK and we make the playoffs anyway despite this, I'll be the first to admit I'm wrong.  Feel free to right me in October and throw it in my face.  But if we don't BECAUSE of this?  

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10 minutes ago, Quin said:

 

 

With a new CBA and the volatility of rosters, I'm not even going to try and speculate what the roster looks like two years from now.

Our OF might be Colas-Robert-Cespedes with Eloy DHing and Vaughn at first, with Collins catching. Or one of (or both) of Colas/Cespedes bust, Eloy improves his (via some sort of magic), Abreu keeps mashing and stays at DH. Maybe Vaughn puts in crazy work and becomes a LF. Hell, they could expand the rosters in the new CBA.

There's a lot of ways Abreu could be on the roster in 2023.

Very good common sense approach and any of them could be traded.

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9 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Very good common sense approach and any of them could be traded.

I should probably clarify in my wording before it bites me in the ass: Obviously people can speculate and should, but ruling out Abreu in 2023, especially with our front office, shouldn't be a foregone conclusion.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Manny Ramirez was a terrible LF...from 2003-2007 averaging -1.7 dWAR.  For reference Eloy in 2019 was a -1.4.   Manny did NOT make every catch every LF should make...in spite of his terrible defense the Bsox managed to get to the playoffs in four of those five years and won two WS.   We are not doomed.   Vaughn played in LF frequently in Schaumburg last year. He's 23.  We aren't asking him to split them atom...and honestly with Robert in CF he catches everything anyway.   It is terrible that Eloy got hurt but every team goes through injuries...expect more...it's how we manage around them and I am intrigued by Vaughn LF/Collins DH mix way more than I am about a Leury Garcia LF/Vaugn DH.    

If Vaughn hit's like Ramirez then I see your point. If not, we're comparing apples to oranges. But I'll at least agree that I'm more intrigued by the VaughnLF/Collins DH than LeuryLF/Vaughn DH.

 

Edited by Soxsi75
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1 hour ago, Quin said:

There's a lot of ways Abreu could be on the roster in 2023.

Only one of them is good, and that's Eloy improving enough to keep him in RF. Otherwise, the only way there's room for Abreu on the roster is that at least one of Eloy and Vaughn is injured or much worse than expected.

I suppose there's a tiny chance that Abreu is so good that he gets another contract and some team makes a crazy trade offer for Vaughn that the Sox can't turn down.

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8 minutes ago, WhiteSoxFan1993 said:

Only one of them is good, and that's Eloy improving enough to keep him in RF. Otherwise, the only way there's room for Abreu on the roster is that at least one of Eloy and Vaughn is injured or much worse than expected.

I suppose there's a tiny chance that Abreu is so good that he gets another contract and some team makes a crazy trade offer for Vaughn that the Sox can't turn down.

With Eloy’s arm, RF would be a minor miracle.

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5 hours ago, ThirdGen said:

You have the Fisk experiment completely wrong.  It was 100% Harrelson's idea, LaRussa was completely opposed.  It was a major part of the feud that led to LaRussa's firing. 

I do agree that Vaughn should not be our left fielder.

No, you are not remembering what happened 35 years ago.

This was La Russa's scheme, Harrelson signed off on it, asked Tony to pull the plug when it wasn't working. Tony dug in, went to Jerry and kept Fisk in LF for another week plus until finally conceding it was a complete debacle and shifting Fisk back to Catcher.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1986-06-22-8602140807-story.html

 

Quote

Concurrent with this success was the return of Carlton Fisk to his catching position. The transfer of Fisk to left field was LaRussa`s idea, with the blessings of LaRussa`s coaches. Harrelson also approved. Three weeks into the season, Harrelson began having doubts.

In early May, Harrelson summoned Herman Franks to Chicago, the same Herman Franks who managed the San Francisco Giants and the Cubs. Franks, a knowledgeable and plain-speaking veteran with more than 50 years in baseball, was hired recently by the Sox as a part-time scout. Although suffering with the gout, Franks packed a small bag and made the trip from his home in Salt Lake City.

''Watch us and tell me what`s wrong,'' Harrelson said.

Franks watched for two games, and in his usual brusque manner, announced, ''Get Fisk the hell out of left field!''

Harrelson conveyed the message to LaRussa, but he wasn`t ready to concede. It wasn`t until a week later, a day or two after the O`Hare press conference, that Fisk picked up a catcher`s mitt.

 

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