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GREEDY

A Nick Madrigal Sized Sample

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Vulture said:

I wouldn’t think speed would be impacted much by sample size

It absolutely could the way the measure it. You’re not going to have people looking faster than they are, but they could definitely track slower

Edited by mqr
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Yeah, I regret posting that, the sample size is way too small.

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I have been low on Madrigal for a while, so keep my bias in mind, but I just don't think his approach will allow him to be successful given his physical limitations. He has one elite skill and that is getting the bat on the ball. The problem is that he hits the pitches that the pitchers want him to hit. His chase contact percentage is 81% in his small sample of 134 plate appearances vs a league average of 59%. That is a great category to be elite in when you're down 0-2 with 1 out and a guy on third, but most of the time you're just throwing away at bats.

If his fielding or speed were elite he'd be a fine everyday second baseman, but they arent. My hope with him is that adjust his approach so that he doesn't put so much emphasis on not striking out. He knows that he can always make contact when the situation calls for it, so why not sell out a bit with less than two strikes?  His hands are certainly quick enough to do damage if he added some loft to his swing.

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Baseball fans seem to have forgotten the human elements of things, obviously pertaining to baseball.

Write someone off as quick as possible. 

Most players take a while to learn, adjust, calm themselves and develop. People who expect prospects to come up and be machines right off the get-go are so tiresome.

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3 minutes ago, RagahRagah said:

Baseball fans seem to have forgotten the human elements of things, obviously pertaining to baseball.

Write someone off as quick as possible. 

Most players take a while to learn, adjust, calm themselves and develop. People who expect prospects to come up and be machines right off the get-go are so tiresome.

No. White Sox fans are following the standard the franchise agreed to.

 

what part of that says “we mean playing in October 2023, of course?”

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So I keep reading he is just not strong enough. Considering the White Sox do have a weight room and players are on a program, is there even the slightest possibility the guy gets stronger as time goes on? 

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18 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

So I keep reading he is just not strong enough. Considering the White Sox do have a weight room and players are on a program, is there even the slightest possibility the guy gets stronger as time goes on? 

Of course not!  And, if he does, he’ll invariably be slower than the Flying Molina Brothers.

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Posted (edited)
57 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

No. White Sox fans are following the standard the franchise agreed to.

 

what part of that says “we mean playing in October 2023, of course?”

You didn't absorb a single thing I said. That has fuck all to do with Nick Madrigal as a player individually. Or Robert for that matter.

People are people, not machines. They have anxiety, worries, pressure. They generally take time to adapt to new things, especially at a professional level. Prospects rarely come up and immediately look great, let alone look like their ceilings.

Your response is akin to that of a meathead boomer.

Edited by RagahRagah
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10 minutes ago, RagahRagah said:

You didn't absorb a single thing I said. That has fuck all to do with Nick Madrigal as a player individually. Or Robert for that matter.

People are people, not machines. They have anxiety, worries, pressure. They generally take time to adapt to new things, especially at a professional level. Prospects rarely come up and immediately look great, let alone look like their ceilings.

Your response is akin to that of a meathead boomer.

If Nick Madrigal is not ready to be a solid member of a playoff team, that’s totally ok. If your team insists they are a playoff team, then they better have plenty of depth to cover things if prospects come up and struggle, or they can’t afford to have the prospect filling that role. In that case, should have been traded in the offseason to a team where the expectations this season are lower, or had someone signed where he can have additional time to work in the minors.

This is the standard the White Sox insisted they were setting. “We will show good fundamentals on our way to a playoff birth” is in their opening day message. They did not say “in 2023 after more guys develop”.

Edit: no idea why moving text around also changed the font size.

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If the first 150 plate appearances tell the story, Soxtalk would have Yermin and no one else on the roster. Eloy was crap. Moncada, crap. I vividly remember someone telling me about TA's weak exit velos. Abreu has been hated. No one wants Eaton. Robert can't hit. Vaughn needed to be traded before he ever stepped to the plate. Grandal is a waste of money. 

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4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

If Nick Madrigal is not ready to be a solid member of a playoff team, that’s totally ok. If your team insists they are a playoff team, then they better have plenty of depth to cover things if prospects come up and struggle, or they can’t afford to have the prospect filling that role. In that case, should have been traded in the offseason to a team where the expectations this season are lower, or had someone signed where he can have additional time to work in the minors.

This is the standard the White Sox insisted they were setting. “We will show good fundamentals on our way to a playoff birth” is in their opening day message. They did not say “in 2023 after more guys develop”.

Edit: no idea why moving text around also changed the font size.

Let’s hope we get the “berth” instead.

This is the danger with promoting all these high level college guys like Rodon, Fulmer, Beckham, Madrigal, Vaughn and Crochet so quickly to fill in gaps or holes in the big league roster they don’t want to spend on or would prefer not to.

It obviously worked well with Sale, but that’s the once in a generation exception who can handle it from the get go. 

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1 hour ago, Dick Allen said:

So I keep reading he is just not strong enough. Considering the White Sox do have a weight room and players are on a program, is there even the slightest possibility the guy gets stronger as time goes on? 

His hands and wrists are too weak.  Sure he could add some strength there but it won't be nearly enough to produce any significant power.  He is what he is. A low impact player.  

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8 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

His hands and wrists are too weak.  Sure he could add some strength there but it won't be nearly enough to produce any significant power.  He is what he is. A low impact player.  

The game also seems too fast for Lil Nicky especially on defense.  Kelenic was sitting right there for the Sox taking but they decided to take the "safe" pick instead. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

If Nick Madrigal is not ready to be a solid member of a playoff team, that’s totally ok. If your team insists they are a playoff team, then they better have plenty of depth to cover things if prospects come up and struggle, or they can’t afford to have the prospect filling that role. In that case, should have been traded in the offseason to a team where the expectations this season are lower, or had someone signed where he can have additional time to work in the minors.

This is the standard the White Sox insisted they were setting. “We will show good fundamentals on our way to a playoff birth” is in their opening day message. They did not say “in 2023 after more guys develop”.

Edit: no idea why moving text around also changed the font size.

You're not wrong. But a team being that caliber should not rest heavily on 1 or 2 specific guys. Tim and Eloy got injured. That's not the fault of Madrigal and Robert. If anyone is to blame it's the team for not providing depth. 

The rules on players don't change simply because the organization said something that quite frankly is obligatory whether it is true or not. What else are they gonna say?

Nick and Robert are likely going to need some time to reach their potentials. It shouldn't be shocking. Doesnt matter what the team says about their "window."

Edited by RagahRagah
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5 minutes ago, RagahRagah said:

You're not wrong. But a team being that caliber should not rest heavily on 1 or 2 specific guys. Tim and Eloy got injured. That's not the fault of Madrigal and Robert. If anyone is to blame it's the team for bot providing depth. 

The rules on players don't change simply because the organization said something that quite frankly is obligatory whether it is true or not. What else are they gonna say?

Nick and Robert are likely going to need some time to reach their potentials. It shouldn't be shocking. Doesnt matter what the team says about their "window."

It sure does matter when they are trading for guys with 1 year of control and signing big expensive contracts for relief pitchers. These things put you over the top right now, at the expense of future years. It’s not just a slogan.

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I think he will be a good defender eventually. What the prospect guys got wrong was the power. At age 24 he probably won't add much power and probably will be like 5-6 Homer guy. 

Longenhagen thought he will be a 15-20 Homer guy eventually and that is quite unlikely now. 

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His primary problem at the plate is making weak contact on bad pitches. He's small and he expands his zone way more than he should. Hopefully his approach matures, he starts looking middle in and actually puts some muscle into the swing. He should take one solid wack each AB before going into slap mode. 

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2 minutes ago, mac9001 said:

His primary problem at the plate is making weak contact on bad pitches. He's small and he expands his zone way more than he should. Hopefully his approach matures, he starts looking middle in and actually puts some muscle into the swing. He should take one solid wack each AB before going into slap mode. 

I don't think his approach is ever likely to change, and TBH I doubt if he does make changes in that they will wind up improving things. 

The key for him remains defense and baserunning. If he's a really good defender and baserunner, then that approach at the plate is acceptable. 

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1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

If he's a really good defender and baserunner, then that approach at the plate is acceptable. 

Acceptable for an average baseball player or Acceptable for the #4 overall pick in the draft?  

I think expectations are driving some of the concerns.  

I personally feel like he has to be at the very least an above average second basemen for the pick to not be a colossal failure.  And at this point absolutely everything we have seen tells me unless there is virtually no reasonable path to that for Nick.  

 

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1 minute ago, GREEDY said:

Acceptable for an average baseball player or Acceptable for the #4 overall pick in the draft?  

I think expectations are driving some of the concerns.  

I personally feel like he has to be at the very least an above average second basemen for the pick to not be a colossal failure.  And at this point absolutely everything we have seen tells me unless there is virtually no reasonable path to that for Nick.  

 

Acceptable for a #4 overall pick. I will take a solid baseball starter who is really good on defense for that pick. 

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24 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Acceptable for a #4 overall pick. I will take a solid baseball starter who is really good on defense for that pick. 

In recent history the only halfway decent #4 overall picks have been Kyle Schwarber, Dylan Bundy, and Kevin Gausman. Zero star players drafted since Ryan Zimmerman and that was 16 years ago. So if Madrigal is even a slightly above average player, he will be the best #4 overall since Zimmerman. Yes, we can always wish we had someone that was better, but David Eckstein was a better player than Schwarbs, Bundy, and Gausman. If that's what we end up with, I can live with that. 

What I am hoping we get out of Madrigal is someone we don't worry about. Someone with good defense who we can have confidence will keep the inning going in tight situations. That being said...he better start looking better defensively later this year.

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14 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Acceptable for a #4 overall pick. I will take a solid baseball starter who is really good on defense for that pick. 

I feel like that is in hindsight.

Kolton Wong was a 3.5 win player the last 2 seasons and received 2/18 for his two prime years.  Cesar Hernandez was great last year and got 1/6 for his age 30 season.

The position is very soft.  We used a golden ticket and used 6.5 million in bonus money to draft Madrigal.  Our fanbase's excitement for having a gritty, American gamer to cheer for during a time where the club was collecting swing and miss position players w/ upside clouded our judgement and still continues to do so.  Nick sounds like a player we want to watch and cheer for.  That unfortunately does not make him good at baseball.

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1 minute ago, GREEDY said:

I feel like that is in hindsight.

Kolton Wong was a 3.5 win player the last 2 seasons and received 2/18 for his two prime years.  Cesar Hernandez was great last year and got 1/6 for his age 30 season.

The position is very soft.  We used a golden ticket and used 6.5 million in bonus money to draft Madrigal.  Our fanbase's excitement for having a gritty, American gamer to cheer for during a time where the club was collecting swing and miss position players w/ upside clouded our judgement and still continues to do so.  Nick sounds like a player we want to watch and cheer for.  That unfortunately does not make him good at baseball.

Here's the trick with Nick Madrigal - he was supposed to be very high floor. Meaning, yeah he might not put up a 5 win season for us, but he's coming from a major college program, he's a 4 year player there, he should get drafted, fly through the minor leagues, be up in the big leagues, and be a solid baseball player right from the start.

So a guy like Moncada may put up a 5 win season in year 3, a 5 win season in year 5, and 20 WAR with the White Sox during his first 6 seasons overall, but Madrigal should be a 3 WAR player almost every year and wind up with 18 WAR for the White Sox during his first 6 seasons because he contributes right away and, aside from injuries, never has a year that is just bad. Especially given that the White Sox were hoping to start competing soon - getting a guy with their 2018 draft pick who can step in right away and should be an above average big league player every year would have been extremely valuable.

This is why I've been harping on Madrigal since last fall - he wasn't supposed to arrive and need tons of seasoning, especially on defense and with baserunning. That he's been so bad at those spots to start is incredibly disconcerting. 

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3 minutes ago, Markbilliards said:

In recent history the only halfway decent #4 overall picks have been Kyle Schwarber, Dylan Bundy, and Kevin Gausman.

I think comparing any of the pitchers taken is apples to oranges.  Completely different value and upside components to choosing a pitcher as opposed to a college second basemen.

 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

It sure does matter when they are trading for guys with 1 year of control and signing big expensive contracts for relief pitchers. These things put you over the top right now, at the expense of future years. It’s not just a slogan.

That was MY argument, lol. I was harsh on the Lynn trade because they weren't optimizing what they were getting. I agree with you.

However, that is a separate issue from Madrigal and Robert. You wanna blame the office for that? ...Ok. Fine. But Madrigal getting the hate he is getting and being expected to be great right away and not experience growing pains and anxiety is silly, and that ignorance is all too commonplace now. The anger is misplaced.

Edited by RagahRagah
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