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The TLR Manager Thread

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8 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

The offense was garbage and the bullpen was bad, but Tony definitely played a large part in Friday’s loss at a minimum.

Im not sure if it was Leyland or Madden that said the manager determins  a handful or a few handfuls of games at best in a season. But TLR  has not seemingly helped the team yet at all. Hes got to pick them up somewhere, sometime.

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8 minutes ago, Chick Mercedes said:

Im not sure if it was Leyland or Madden that said the manager determins  a handful or a few handfuls of games at best in a season. But TLR  has not seemingly helped the team yet at all. Hes got to pick them up somewhere, sometime.

Other than PHing Vaughn today against Chapman...

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Other than PHing Vaughn today against Chapman...

Pretty elementary. I think you weigh the positive outcomes against the negatives and look at game saving  balances ultimately. The worst manager of all time has never had 100% of moves blow up on his face. But on balance?  You be the judge.

Edited by Chick Mercedes
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, IWokeUpLikeThis said:

The untold part of the story is Jerry Krause was...right. Dennis Rodman played 23 and 12 games the next 2 years and retired. His career was effectively over but no one knew. Scottie Pippen went down 5 PPG the next year, and 7 PPG the next 2 years. Blowing it up did Jordan a favor ensuring he went out on top because that team was not sniffing another ring after ‘98.

Krause flunked the rebuild, but he earned that opportunity. 

Disagree on the premise of the Bulls not winning again. Just look at the win totals the last season and project the disaster falloff if your theory is correct.  Doubtful they were going anywhere south unless Jordan’s finger was falling off. The rebuild did show how overrated Krause was though. He did good enough and  rode the GOAT. Not a rare feat of strength.

Edited by Chick Mercedes

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Tony said:

Here is my issue. I don’t disagree with the logic from LaRussa here. The problem is when the first two got on...maybe make an adjustment. Bummer isn’t getting it done at that point. But instead no matter what the result, Hendricks was getting Judge, no matter what Bummer did . 

I'm reading all the arguing back and forth about how TLR used the BP and it seems rather odd to me in some way . Once again we saw Marshall and Ruiz,  Bummer and Hendriks. This is one time I'm not upset with how TLR used Bummer and Hendriks .  Yeah Bummer gave up the hit and the stolen base. But if you want to say Hendriks should've started the inning or Bummer taken out after a hit it's basically either hindsight or splitting hairs. Either could've been done but it wasn't but not because TLR is stupid.

Even after the hit you would think Bummer being LH would be able to hold the runner better than Hendriks so not bringing Hendriks in then wasn't a bad decision. Not holding the runner was the worst part and I would like to think that the catcher, pitching coach or manager might stress that since it's the potential winning run.  Once the stolen base happened , you have to walk the next guy and if you want a DP yea, you leave Bummer in. I don't have a problem with Hendriks being brought in when he was. Nothing worked out with your set up guy and closer, both of whom were supposed to be among the best in those spots all year. I highly doubt Hendriks cares that much when he's brought in. The guy wants to pitch as much as he can. But anyway that's my take but I had a bigger point to make and one that no one here ever mentions but it's food for thought so here we go.

How much is TLR handicapped that 2 of our best relievers are under strict pitching guidelines ? For instance Kopech is on an innings limit and is used in multiple inning roles such as spot starter and middle relief requiring more than an inning usually. So he basically isn't used as a 7th inning guy or even an every other day type reliever . That role has been going to guys who have been been bad, Heuer, Marshall,Foster and  Ruiz a lot.

They are also babying Crochet along. He's pitched less innings than any other of the main guys in the BP even though he gets the best results .

So like I said food for thought. Not trying to stick up for TLR , just trying my best to be an unbiased observer and remove the emotion from it all. When you can't use our 2 best guys in late inning situations  it makes managing the BP way harder and also why a reliever or 2 should be priority one at the trade deadline or as soon as possible because things are not going to change with Kopech and Crochet.

Edited by CaliSoxFanViaSWside
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26 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I'm reading all the arguing back and forth about how TLR used the BP and it seems rather odd to me in some way . Once again we saw Marshall and Ruiz,  Bummer and Hendriks. This is one time I'm not upset with how TLR used Bummer and Hendriks .  Yeah Bummer gave up the hit and the stolen base. But if you want to say Hendriks should've started the inning or Bummer taken out after a hit it's basically either hindsight or splitting hairs. Either could've been done but it wasn't but not because TLR is stupid.

Even after the hit you would think Bummer being LH would be able to hold the runner better than Hendriks so not bringing Hendriks in then wasn't a bad decision. Not holding the runner was the worst part and I would like to think that the catcher, pitching coach or manager might stress that since it's the potential winning run.  Once the stolen base happened , you have to walk the next guy and if you want a DP yea, you leave Bummer in. I don't have a problem with Hendriks being brought in when he was. Nothing worked out with your set up guy and closer, both of whom were supposed to be among the best in those spots all year. I highly doubt Hendriks cares that much when he's brought in. The guy wants to pitch as much as he can. But anyway that's my take but I had a bigger point to make and one that no one here ever mentions but it's food for thought so here we go.

How much is TLR handicapped that 2 of our best relievers are under strict pitching guidelines ? For instance Kopech is on an innings limit and is used in multiple inning roles such as spot starter and middle relief requiring more than an inning usually. So he basically isn't used as a 7th inning guy or even an every other day type reliever . That roll has been going to guys who have been been bad, Heuer, Marshall,Foster and  Ruiz a lot.

They are also babying Crochet along. He's pitched less innings than any other of the main guys in the BP even though he gets the best results .

So like I said food for thought. Not trying to stick up for TLR , just trying my best to be an unbiased observer and remove the emotion from it all. When you can't use our 2 best guys in late inning situations  it makes managing the BP way harder and also why a reliever or 2 should be priority one at the trade deadline or as soon as possible because things are not going to change with Kopech and Crochet.

While I disagree with a few things here, this is a perfectly reasonable, well-thought out post. So well done. 

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Posted (edited)
50 minutes ago, Tony said:

While I disagree with a few things here, this is a perfectly reasonable, well-thought out post. So well done. 

Thanks. I think when most envisioned the Sox BP being great a lot of it had to do with 4 arms in the late innings, Kopech, Crochet, Bummer and Hendriks but because of innings limits and the desire to have them both (Kopech and Crochet ) available and healthy late in the season and for the playoffs for larger roles, they've had to rely on the other 4 guys I mentioned. Ruiz hasn't been terrible but Heuer, Foster and Marshall have. No one real envisioned them all being bad but the potential was always there since the nature of relief pitching is so volatile.

So you take away Kopech and Crochet for late inning roles or even roles of pitching every other day and this is the result. You get guys being asked to pitch more than 1 inning and every other day. It's not so much theat TLR doesn't know his relievers , it's that they are being used in ways that they have been forced into by the unavailability of Kopech and Crochet. It really shouldn't be a big surprise to anyone that they can't handle the way they are being used and that the Sox are suffering so many late inning losses.

Despite all that 2 of the 3 losses went wire to wire so it's not like this injury decimated  or our worst BP arms getting longer and expanded roles team got clobbered. TLR actually has some big problems with all that to manage through.  I don't think he's a good manager anymore and he's made a lot of mistakes . There's only one thing holding this team together and that's the starting pitching and when that falters even a little the Sox are on shaky ground because the hitting, BP, defense and manager can't cover for it

Edited by CaliSoxFanViaSWside
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2 hours ago, JoeyCoralFanClub said:

There is some blame for Friday I guess. 

You also aren't going to win many series when your leadoff man goes 2 for 11 and when your sluggers are grounding into multiple double plays.

The position players definitely didn’t bring it this series.

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2 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Thanks. I think when most envisioned the Sox BP being great a lot of it had to do with 4 arms in the late innings, Kopech, Crochet, Bummer and Hendriks but because of innings limits and the desire to have them both (Kopech and Crochet ) available and healthy late in the season and for the playoffs for larger roles, they've had to rely on the other 4 guys I mentioned. Ruiz hasn't been terrible but Heuer, Foster and Marshall have. No one real envisioned them all being bad but the potential was always there since the nature of relief pitching is so volatile.

So you take away Kopech and Crochet for late inning roles or even roles of pitching every other day and this is the result. You get guys being asked to pitch more than 1 inning and every other day. It's not so much theat TLR doesn't know his relievers , it's that they are being used in ways that they have been forced into by the unavailability of Kopech and Crochet. It really shouldn't be a big surprise to anyone that they can't handle the way they are being used and that the Sox are suffering so many late inning losses.

Despite all that 2 of the 3 losses went wire to wire so it's not like this injury decimated  or our worst BP arms getting longer and expanded roles team got clobbered. TLR actually has some big problems with all that to manage through.  I don't think he's a good manager anymore and he's made a lot of mistakes . There's only one thing holding this team together and that's the starting pitching and when that falters even a little the Sox are on shaky ground because the hitting, BP, defense and manager can't cover for it

Well, the second paragraph really doesn't describe this series at all. You say that the availability of Kopech and Crochet is forcing guys into multi-inning roles - but take a look at the voyage this series and how it turned into losses and that doesn't show up. Rather, it all hangs on LaRussa.

Bummer pitched today on normal rest for a starter - he last pitched last Tuesday. Heuer pitched today on the same rest. Hendricks pitched today on 3 days rest - he threw an inning on Wednesday. Now really, with that context, was it the unavailability of relievers forcing guys into these roles? At least on Friday, they were literally all available, but LaRussa was saving Bummer, Hendricks, and Heuer for what, the 13th inning? Marshall for 2 innings was totally LaRussa's choice. 

Furthermore, and this one's rather big - LaRussa went to Foster on Saturday with the Yankees up 3 and Foster got 3 outs in 7 batters and the lead doubled. Fine, maybe the White Sox weren't hitting Gerrit Cole, and it didn't matter whether the lead was 1 run, 3 runs, or 6 runs, so bringing in Foster and waving the white flag wasn't worth getting bent out of shape about. But then who else did they use once the game was out of reach, in a 7 run game in the 8th inning? Crochet. So, what exactly forced the White Sox into using all their relievers today and then having to plan for how to have a pitcher available in the 10th? Part Keuchel being blah, but part the fact that LaRussa wasted Crochet in the bottom of the 8th inning of a 7 run game the day before, after he had already waived the white flag in the game by pitching Foster, so they couldn't call Crochet out for 2 innings on Sunday if they had needed him.

So is it the restrictions on Kopech and Crochet that are causing odd usages, or is it LaRussa himself? At least this series, LaRussa. 

One other point. In 2019, Liam Hendriks pitched 85 innings As of right now, Hendriks is on pace to pitch 65 innings. The only one on pace for more than 68 innings out of the White Sox's bullpen is Kopech. So, could he, one of their better relievers still, be available for more? Frankly, darn right, and that could very well make this bullpen better. 

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2 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

The position players definitely didn’t bring it this series.

I still think that TLR should be calling for more hit and runs. Sox are hitting many ground balls and into many double plays.  Hit and runs also also open more holes in the infield.  Double plays are rally killers.

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6 hours ago, mmmmmbeeer said:

He's completely oblivious to criticism.  Unless our beat reporters say something specific, he has no clue.  I'm being serious....I don't think he reads the sports pages, social media, sportscasts, nothing.  He's come out and said as much.

Agree. Hahn needs to have a chat with TLR and bring in him up to reality with constructive criticism and feedback.  Something needs to change.

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On 5/21/2021 at 10:21 PM, Quin said:

So what is that, 5 losses we can pin on Tony that a competent manager (maybe a replacement level manager?) would not have?

Just read an article from NBC sports, saying the White Sox should have hired Alex Cora instead of TLR. Cora has done a much better job with RedSox this season with less talent.  He is more attuned to the younger players and to the Latin Sox stars. I agree.

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On 5/21/2021 at 11:06 PM, fathom said:

With Timmy slowing down big time and Mercedes not hitting like a future HOF, Tony’s choices will be even more in the spotlight.  Really wish Hahn and company get proactive and give the lineup a boost.

One of the biggest boosts would be to have TLR resign or retire.

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On 5/21/2021 at 11:12 PM, Blackout Friday said:

Good thing Heuer was there in case he got in trouble lol. How is he so bad at this?

TLR has been managing for a ghost 10th inning that never arrives and we get walked off in the 9th.

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Just now, hankchifan said:

One of the biggest boosts would be to have TLR resign or retire.

Do we even know how long his contract is for? Still to this day I can't seem to find that info.

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29 minutes ago, hankchifan said:

Agree. Hahn needs to have a chat with TLR and bring in him up to reality with constructive criticism and feedback.  Something needs to change.

Why in God's name would LaRussa, a HoFer baseball person and second all-time in managerial wins (almost) listen to Rick Hahn?

It's like the scouts in MONEYBALL (Grady Fuson) listening to Jonah Hill/DePodesta at that awkward/uncomfortable table in the conference room.

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1 minute ago, caulfield12 said:

Why in God's name would LaRussa, a HoFer baseball person and second all-time in managerial wins (almost) listen to Rick Hahn?

It's like the scouts in MONEYBALL (Grady Fuson) listening to Jonah Hill/DePodesta at that awkward/uncomfortable table in the conference room.

So much catastrophe in allowing this old, out of touch drunk to be the manager. 

Ironically, the amount of guilt JR should have over destroying his own team's chemistry, integrity, function and credibility should far outweigh his guilt for firing Tony so many years ago.

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, YourWhatHurts said:

If "Ricky's boys don't quit," what do Tony's boys do?

Based on several player tweets last week, they largely tune Tony out / ignore him. The problem is he makes the lineup and calls upon the bullpen.

Im hoping he steps down after passing John McGraw for the number two spot in early Summer.

8 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I'm reading all the arguing back and forth about how TLR used the BP and it seems rather odd to me in some way . Once again we saw Marshall and Ruiz,  Bummer and Hendriks. This is one time I'm not upset with how TLR used Bummer and Hendriks .  Yeah Bummer gave up the hit and the stolen base. But if you want to say Hendriks should've started the inning or Bummer taken out after a hit it's basically either hindsight or splitting hairs. Either could've been done but it wasn't but not because TLR is stupid.

Even after the hit you would think Bummer being LH would be able to hold the runner better than Hendriks so not bringing Hendriks in then wasn't a bad decision. Not holding the runner was the worst part and I would like to think that the catcher, pitching coach or manager might stress that since it's the potential winning run.  Once the stolen base happened , you have to walk the next guy and if you want a DP yea, you leave Bummer in. I don't have a problem with Hendriks being brought in when he was. Nothing worked out with your set up guy and closer, both of whom were supposed to be among the best in those spots all year. I highly doubt Hendriks cares that much when he's brought in. The guy wants to pitch as much as he can. But anyway that's my take but I had a bigger point to make and one that no one here ever mentions but it's food for thought so here we go.

How much is TLR handicapped that 2 of our best relievers are under strict pitching guidelines ? For instance Kopech is on an innings limit and is used in multiple inning roles such as spot starter and middle relief requiring more than an inning usually. So he basically isn't used as a 7th inning guy or even an every other day type reliever . That role has been going to guys who have been been bad, Heuer, Marshall,Foster and  Ruiz a lot.

They are also babying Crochet along. He's pitched less innings than any other of the main guys in the BP even though he gets the best results .

So like I said food for thought. Not trying to stick up for TLR , just trying my best to be an unbiased observer and remove the emotion from it all. When you can't use our 2 best guys in late inning situations  it makes managing the BP way harder and also why a reliever or 2 should be priority one at the trade deadline or as soon as possible because things are not going to change with Kopech and Crochet.

I agree with the assessment the bullpen has two significant handcuffs (Kopech and Crochet) in terms of availability. This is exacerbated when they pull Kopech out of the bullpen to start, which has already happened twice. 

There should be a ninth reliever and four man bench (Bye Jake), but one can only speculate what, if any, say Hahn has with Tony there. At least with Ricky, there was ongoing dialogue and manager accountability, including FO involvement in the lineup and pitching plan for each playoff game.

Edited by South Side Hit Men

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That would be just wonderful if TLR stepped down this summer.  Unfortunately I am of the opinion that getting TLR out of the Sox manager's office is a lot like extracting a raccoon from an outbuilding.  And just asking him to get out and stay away from your playoffs is like just asking a raccoon to do the same.

I certainly hope this TLR shit doesn't spread to 2022.  But even if it doesn't I still have no confidence in the Sox hiring the appropriate replacement.

Obviously the ideal scenario here is that these hamstrung players can win a title with a monkey on their backs and then TLR will be happy to take the credit for it and walk away.  Prolly not.

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So I figured out what I want to do with yesterday's game in the list. It fits in the list, but it isn't bolded because there's not an obvious, catastrophic decision, and "Aaron Bummer should be able to get an out against the bottom of the Yankee order" is not an obviously impossible standard. But at the same time, you can see how the decisions on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday all cascaded together to contribute to another L.

1-Apr    Failing to make review time window, Leury starts opening day, no pinch hitter for him late.
3-Apr    Bullpen Usage - Bummer never used, Marshall allowed to blow game in the 9th.
4-Apr    Bullpen usage - Hendriks not used in the 9th, Ruiz and Foster blow it.
    *Several times could have PH for Leury or Hamilton, not done
7-Apr    Bullpen usage - Foster comes in with Bummer and Hendriks needing work, gives up 5 runs. 
11-Apr    Couple of poorly thought out bunts, pinch running for Mercedes early left no backup Ofs
13-Apr    Williams hits 5th, Lamb hits 7th, Mercedes benched against Bieber. Could have kept Hendriks out to start the 10th.
27-Apr    Attempts to kill Lucas Giolito. "We were looking for a single there." Insists postgame that he was awake.
5-May    Messes up double-switch, runs team out of 10th inning, rulebook read to him by reporter.
17-May    The Yermin Mercedes incident.
21-May    Bullpen Usage. Day after offday, only Hendricks pitched on Wednesday so nearly entire bullpen available. Left Marshall out for 9th inning against Yankee 3-4-5 after already pitching in the 8th did not pull him even when runners got on. Did not shift anyone up the middle against Judge, who singled through the spot where a shift should have been.
23-May    Bullpen Usage - Crochet used in mopup duty in 7 run game day before, so unavailable. Hendriks and Bummer on extra long rest, so rust possible. LaRussa keeps Bummer out for the 9th to save Hendricks for 10th, Bummer loads bases before Hendriks comes in. Hendriks walks in winning run.
    
    Bolded are games where managerial decisions are particularly high leverage in a loss. All items on the list cannot be assumed to be wins with a better manager, these are only high leverage mistakes that contributed to a loss.
 

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8 hours ago, RagahRagah said:

Do we even know how long his contract is for? Still to this day I can't seem to find that info.

I also feel like there was no official announcement on the length haha

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2 minutes ago, manbearpuig said:

I also feel like there was no official announcement on the length haha

The whole thing is a handshake between the dorf and old drinky.  They do whatever they want and don't need exact terms for anything.  And for all the rest of us, it's none of our business.

Contracts are only for people you can fire.

 

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Not even going to read some garbage out of Boston about how sorry we should be for not hiring their cheater who was banned from the game for a year.  You can keep your cheater and think you have some toy we should be envious over. 

I really hate the idea that the only options were TLR and one of the cheater group of Hinch/Cora/Beltran.   If the Sox would ever follow a proper hiring process they would find several qualified candidates outside of that group.

Just look at the talent on the team.  Fill out the Xs and O's, keep some control over the clubhouse, talk to the media, and just let the players play. 

Obviously the "championship experience" prerequisite is unnecessary based on the fact that TLR can't even manage a game in April.  Also the one title any of us ever saw in our lives came from a guy in his second year who had minimal coaching experience as a third base coach only.

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11 minutes ago, YourWhatHurts said:

Not even going to read some garbage out of Boston about how sorry we should be for not hiring their cheater who was banned from the game for a year.  You can keep your cheater and think you have some toy we should be envious over. 

I really hate the idea that the only options were TLR and one of the cheater group of Hinch/Cora/Beltran.   If the Sox would ever follow a proper hiring process they would find several qualified candidates outside of that group.

Just look at the talent on the team.  Fill out the Xs and O's, keep some control over the clubhouse, talk to the media, and just let the players play. 

Obviously the "championship experience" prerequisite is unnecessary based on the fact that TLR can't even manage a game in April.  Also the one title any of us ever saw in our lives came from a guy in his second year who had minimal coaching experience as a third base coach only.

To be fair, TLR should probably be included in the cheater category.  The idea that he knew nothing about the steroid stuff going on in his own locker room is ridiculous, and would undermine any claims of his competency anyway.  There are also the Jack McDowell allegations of scoreboard cheating going on with the Sox under Tony.

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