Addressing the OF shortage (Robert Injury Spinoff)

[South Side Hit Men]

8 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

I edited my post.  When you said they flushed $150M down the toilet, I figured you were referring to Grandal + Abreu.  You were referring to Grandal + Keuchel.  None of the names were mentioned, hence the confusion.  

Understood.

Abreu's deal is $50M for 3 years, Grandal ($73M) and Keuchel ($75.5M if he vests). They're both decent players, just tied up to too much payroll (30%) on a mid-market team, whereas if they spread the money broader, you're not at major risk for a mid-30s expected production drop off, or an injury.

Sox do better signing their internal players they know best, including Abreu, or their extensions to Eloy and Robert, or even going back to Konerko's post WS extension.

Also why I want them to not overcommit to veterans beyond the current deals (including Lynn), to allow them to sign Anderson/Lucas/Robert/Eloy for a reasonable (market, not discount, but not $200M-300M deal which the current ownership won't fund). A change in ownership before 2024 could prove a major bonanza in terms of having a solid team throughout the decade. 

Edited May 3, 2021 by South Side Hit Men

[JoeyCoralFanClub]

3 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Yes - World Series or bust in 2021!  Eloy hurt!? Who cares!?  Robert hurt!? No biggie!  Let's trade off a legitiamtely elite SP prospect for a guy who is paid market value for 4 months and will leave for nothing!  Brilliant!

Glad you aren't making decisions or the Sox would be cellar dwellers again by 2023.  

Garrett Crochet is years away from being an elite starting pitcher. He is way way more likely to come down with a forearm strain and end up on the shelf for 2 years like Kopech or Burdi. Hell Crochet is hurt as I'm typing this.

Getting Bryant for Crochet would be an absolute coup. Trading Crochet isn't going to make the Sox cellar dwellers by 2023. It is time to grab the American League and Al Central by the Balls. We sat through years of losing on purpose and garbage baseball.  No more excuses. The time to win is now!!!

 

["The Kids Can Play"]

5 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I actually wonder if Colorado would be interested in an injured Eloy. They might drool over his bat in Colorado. Could the Sox get back more than Tapia for him  or not even get Tapia for him since he's injured ? Can you imagine the speed of the Sox then ? Give up the power of Eloy for more speed and defense and hit tool ?

 

Rick Hahn would crazy to trade Eloy. Eloy is a generational talent that not only can produce 35-40 HR's & 100 plus RBI's a year as a .280-.300 hitter, but he is huge motivational and positive attitude player the team dugout needs. The Sox miss that energy and enthusiasm that Eloy brought to the team last year. Without Eloy the team doesn't seem to be having as much fun as last year. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

3 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

We are in year 1 of the window.  The window is an extended one IMO when looking at the roster and control - through at least 2026.  I get the urge to want to be good right away, but trading Crochet for a 4 month stop gap would be beyond stupid.  

Why wasn't last year the 1st year ? We made the playoffs. If the Sox did everything I suggested it's possible they go much deeper in the playoffs and have more money to use in the off season or at the trade deadline. I'm speaking of not wanting EE and giving Mercedes a chance last year . According to you last year wasn't the 1st year of the open window so why spend money on EE ? Then maybe you spend that EE money on a starting pitcher or try for another stater at the trade deadline when I also suggested that could be Lynn. So I am thinking last year had to be the 1st year otherwise no need to spend the money on EE .

I could also ask why spend the money on Grandal or Keuchel. I know the answer to that is they were given multiyear contracts but with both being older players isn't it best to maximize the 1st year of them being with the team since decline is likelier year after year ?

[ChiSox59]

5 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Understood.

Abreu's deal is $50M for 3 years, Grandal ($73M) and Keuchel ($75.5M if he vests). They're both decent players, just tied up to too much payroll (30%) on a mid-market team, whereas if they spread the money broader, you're not at major risk for a mid-30s expected production drop off, or an injury.

Sox do better signing their internal players they know best, including Abreu, or their extensions to Eloy and Robert, or even going back to Konerko's post WS extension.

Also why I want them to not overcommit to veterans beyond the current deals (including Lynn), to allow them to sign Anderson/Lucas/Robert/Eloy for a reasonable (market, not discount, but not $200M-300M deal which the current ownership won't fund). A change in ownership before 2024 could prove a major bonanza in terms of having a solid team throughout the decade. 

This thing was never going to work if the Sox weren't going to open up the checkbook a bit and get into that upper 25% of payrolls. I know you have your ownership bone to pick and I don't really care to get into a discussion about that.  Guys like Grandal and Keuchel are needed on legit WS contenders.  But if the Sox will never graduate to the big kid pool, the whole thing was never going to work anyway.  I was as disappointed as anyone in the last offseason and their lack of willingness to spend $.  But I am not convinced they won't eventually stretch into that top 25%.  We're still in the early stages of this thing.  But, despite having a pretty big gap between our opinions on most things Sox related, I do get where you're coming from.  Its frustrating.  But you can't have it both ways - b**** about not spending money, but when they sign two very well respected vets who filled major team needs, then complaining about the money they spent on them.  

[ChiSox59]

6 minutes ago, JoeyCoralFanClub said:

Garrett Crochet is years away from being an elite starting pitcher. He is way way more likely to come down with a forearm strain and end up on the shelf for 2 years like Kopech or Burdi. Hell Crochet is hurt as I'm typing this.

Getting Bryant for Crochet would be an absolute coup. Trading Crochet isn't going to make the Sox cellar dwellers by 2023. It is time to grab the American League and Al Central by the Balls. We sat through years of losing on purpose and garbage baseball.  No more excuses. The time to win is now!!!

 

Yeah, I and most everyone else here is going to disagree.  We all want to win, but trading off major long term pieces for half a season stop gaps ain't it.  We're all welcome to our opinions tho. Go Sox!  

[ChiSox59]

6 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Why wasn't last year the 1st year ? We made the playoffs. If the Sox did everything I suggested it's possible they go much deeper in the playoffs and have more money to use in the off season or at the trade deadline. I'm speaking of not wanting EE and giving Mercedes a chance last year . According to you last year wasn't the 1st year of the open window so why spend money on EE ? Then maybe you spend that EE money on a starting pitcher or try for another stater at the trade deadline when I also suggested that could be Lynn. So I am thinking last year had to be the 1st year otherwise no need to spend the money on EE .

I could also ask why spend the money on Grandal or Keuchel. I know the answer to that is they were given multiyear contracts but with both being older players isn't it best to maximize the 1st year of them being with the team since decline is likelier year after year ?

Sure you can call last year year 1 if you want.  Somewhat irrelevant to the discussion.  The point is, this thing is still very much in the early stages.  

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

50 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Sure you can call last year year 1 if you want.  Somewhat irrelevant to the discussion.  The point is, this thing is still very much in the early stages.  

I don't think it's that irrelevant when now some of you are talking about kicking the can to the future for a 2nd year in a row while Core players salaries keep rising and Giolito has 2 more years and we might have the best starting pitching we are going to have in the window right now. The differences in our opinions is that you see the window open for longer than I do. It's buying into what JR constantly is selling us that has never reaped rewards if we are talking about repeatedly making the playoffs.

Edited May 3, 2021 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[South Side Hit Men]

12 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

This thing was never going to work if the Sox weren't going to open up the checkbook a bit and get into that upper 25% of payrolls. I know you have your ownership bone to pick and I don't really care to get into a discussion about that.  Guys like Grandal and Keuchel are needed on legit WS contenders.  But if the Sox will never graduate to the big kid pool, the whole thing was never going to work anyway.  I was as disappointed as anyone in the last offseason and their lack of willingness to spend $.  But I am not convinced they won't eventually stretch into that top 25%.  We're still in the early stages of this thing.  But, despite having a pretty big gap between our opinions on most things Sox related, I do get where you're coming from.  Its frustrating.  But you can't have it both ways - b**** about not spending money, but when they sign two very well respected vets who filled major team needs, then complaining about the money they spent on them.  

I agree with this. If you look through my post history, my criticism of Jerry has been on the dysfunctional management, cronyism, his anti-player sentiment when he was powerful / controlled Selig, and interference in decisions three-four layers removed from his purview (White Sox Manager current and past). The team's budget is reasonable for the revenue they generate, when the team exceeds expectations and variable revenue increases, he has increased player payroll accordingly.

My criticism of Hahn is he knows the budget, but has shown throughout his entire tenure a poor ability to spend it wisely on external free agents, and also has a history of poor roster construction. Kenny won in 2005 by spreading thin FA money across several seeds, hitting big with Dye ($3M), Iguchi ($2.3M), AJ ($2.5M), Everett ($4M), and three core veterans to complement the staff Contreras & Garcia ($8M each) and El Duque ($3.5M). This is what I advocated both pre and post rebuild.

Hahn hasn't spent wisely for the most part on external free agents during the three stages of his tenure ("competing", spending unnecessarily during tanking, and then his big contracts during the "multiple championship window"). You won't ever find a single post from me advocating for Bauer or any $25M-$40M external FA under the current ownership, because it severely hamstrings your flexibility. Spending 30% of payroll on two guys with limited upside, and performance decline / concerns hitting their mid 30s is not a prudent use of a known budget. It's why the team is left with NRIs filling key depth positions, exacerbated by La Russa's proclivity to overuse veterans and devalue quality rookies.

[NWINFan]

51 minutes ago, ejm3 said:

Rick Hahn would crazy to trade Eloy. Eloy is a generational talent that not only can produce 35-40 HR's & 100 plus RBI's a year as a .280-.300 hitter, but he is huge motivational and positive attitude player the team dugout needs. The Sox miss that energy and enthusiasm that Eloy brought to the team last year. Without Eloy the team doesn't seem to be having as much fun as last year. 

I agree with this. Trading Eloy would be the dumbest thing the club could do. And while I can't exactly put my finger on it, I don't get good vibes from this team. The club just seems dead at times. Some of that is from the inconsistent offense. Some of it comes from plays like the Yoan-Tim miscommunication. Regardless, the White Sox don't look like a World Series contender right now. Maybe they can tread water until Robert and Eloy return, but something seems wrong. I don't know if a trade will help. Maybe firing Tony LaRussa would.

[ShoeLessRob]

Yelich would fit in, he is often injured also.

["The Kids Can Play"]

1 minute ago, NWINFan said:

I agree with this. Trading Eloy would be the dumbest thing the club could do. And while I can't exactly put my finger on it, I don't get good vibes from this team. The club just seems dead at times. Some of that is from the inconsistent offense. Some of it comes from plays like the Yoan-Tim miscommunication. Regardless, the White Sox don't look like a World Series contender right now. Maybe they can tread water until Robert and Eloy return, but something seems wrong. I don't know if a trade will help. Maybe firing Tony LaRussa would.

Couldn't agree more with you.

[Harry Chappas]

3 minutes ago, NWINFan said:

I agree with this. Trading Eloy would be the dumbest thing the club could do. And while I can't exactly put my finger on it, I don't get good vibes from this team. The club just seems dead at times. Some of that is from the inconsistent offense. Some of it comes from plays like the Yoan-Tim miscommunication. Regardless, the White Sox don't look like a World Series contender right now. Maybe they can tread water until Robert and Eloy return, but something seems wrong. I don't know if a trade will help. Maybe firing Tony LaRussa would.

I think this is across baseball.  Go look at every team's record not a lot of teams playing well.  Everyone seems to be at .500 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 minute ago, Harry Chappas said:

I think this is across baseball.  Go look at every team's record not a lot of teams playing well.  Everyone seems to be at .500 

That's one of the only things that gives me any hope that the Sox could survive losing Eloy and Robert and waiting till they return. The AL is weak this year which makes being a bit more committed to winning from management all the more important. Here's to hoping the Sox survive until we see if JR throw us a bone or what they do with Eloy after he returns. This should be a prime year to at least make it to the World Series. It would be massively disappointing to not even make the playoffs.

[ShoeLessRob]

11 minutes ago, NWINFan said:

I agree with this. Trading Eloy would be the dumbest thing the club could do. And while I can't exactly put my finger on it, I don't get good vibes from this team. The club just seems dead at times. Some of that is from the inconsistent offense. Some of it comes from plays like the Yoan-Tim miscommunication. Regardless, the White Sox don't look like a World Series contender right now. Maybe they can tread water until Robert and Eloy return, but something seems wrong. I don't know if a trade will help. Maybe firing Tony LaRussa would.

I feel like they bought into their own hype and believes they were going to the World Series. Reality kicked in within one month. 

[SonofaRoache]

11 minutes ago, Harry Chappas said:

I think this is across baseball.  Go look at every team's record not a lot of teams playing well.  Everyone seems to be at .500 

Teams will separate themselves between games 30 and 60. 

[Thad Bosley]

So we’ve moved from an off-season of crazy trade ideas for Kopech, Vaughn, and Madrigal to ones now of Eloy and Crochet.  Aye caromba!  What’s wrong with you people!  Always wanting to jettison our prime, elite young talent.  Stop!

just take a breath and look where we are at.  Yes, we lost Eloy, but for the moment, Yermin is filling the void he left.  Robert is out for however long he’ll be out, but you replace one elite part of his game, his defense, with the return of Engel.  If Engel can continue showing he’s at least average offensively, then why the need to go and trade a top prospect either for a rental (like Bryant) or some tier two level outfielders like the many suggested in this thread.  

Whats more important than anything for our team (and it was true even before the Robert injury) is for Jose, Yasmani, and Yoan to provide the level of offense expected from each.  If and when we get those three going, and combine that with what we are already seeing with TA, Mercedes, Nicky, and an improving Vaughn, we should have plenty of offense to win this division.  Heck, we are already at the top of the league in offense even with those three scuffling so far.  Imagine what happens when they start to return to their norms!

So a big HARD PASS on knee-jerk reactions to Robert’s injury by trading away any of our premium prospects or talent.  The challenges in front of the team can be solved internally with our own guys.  Revisit it again at the trade deadline if need be, but for now, dance with the ones who brung you!

 

Edited May 3, 2021 by Thad Bosley

[Jerksticks]

3 minutes ago, Thad Bosley said:

So we’ve moved from an off-season of crazy trade ideas for Kopech, Vaughn, and Madrigal to ones now of Eloy and Crochet.  Aye caromba!  What’s wrong with you people!  Always wanting to jettison our prime, elite young talent.  Stop!

just take a breath and look where we are at.  Yes, we lost Eloy, but for the moment, Yermin is filling the void he left.  Robert is out for however long he’ll be out, but you replace one elite part of his game, his defense, with the return of Engel.  If Engel can continue showing he’s at least average offensively, then why the need to go and trade a top prospect either for a rental (like Bryant) or some tier two level outfielders like the many suggested in this thread.  

Whats more important than anything for our team (and it was true even before the Robert injury) is for Jose, Yasmani, and Yoan to provide the level of offense expected from each.  If and when we get those three going, and combine that with what we are already seeing with TA, Mercedes, Nicky, and an improving Vaughn, we should have plenty of offense to win this division.  Heck, we are already at the top of the league in offense even with those three scuffling so far.  Imagine what happens when they start to return to their norms!

So a big HARD PASS on knee-jerk reactions to Robert’s injury by trading away any of our premium prospects or talent.  The challenges in front of the team can be solved internally with our own guys.  Revisit it again at the trade deadline if need be, but for now, dance with the ones who brung you!

 

Good for you dude.  Enjoy your big boy pants.  Well deserved

[Balta1701]

4 minutes ago, Thad Bosley said:

So we’ve moved from an off-season of crazy trade ideas for Kopech, Vaughn, and Madrigal to ones now of Eloy and Crochet.  Aye caromba!  What’s wrong with you people!  Always wanting to jettison our prime, elite young talent.  Stop!

just take a breath and look where we are at.  Yes, we lost Eloy, but for the moment, Yermin is filling the void he left.  Robert is out for however long he’ll be out, but you replace one elite part of his game, his defense, with the return of Engel.  If Engel can continue showing he’s at least average offensively, then why the need to go and trade a top prospect either for a rental (like Bryant) or some tier two level outfielders like the many suggested in this thread.  

Whats more important than anything for our team (and it was true even before the Robert injury) is for Jose, Yasmani, and Yoan to provide the level of offense expected from each.  If and when we get those three going, and combine that with what we are already seeing with TA, Mercedes, Nicky, and an improving Vaughn, we should have plenty of offense to win this division.  Heck, we are already at the top of the league in offense even with those three scuffling so far.  Imagine what happens when they start to return to their norms!

So a big HARD PASS on knee-jerk reactions to Robert’s injury by trading away any of our premium prospects or talent.  The challenges in front of the team can be solved internally with our own guys.  Revisit it again at the trade deadline if need be, but for now, dance with the ones who brung you!

 

You posted this after it was announced that Engel was out for another month.

[Thad Bosley]

3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

You posted this after it was announced that Engel was out for another month.

Sigh...and before I saw how long Robert will be out.  Changes everything for this season.  Still not a fan of trading our elite prospects, but this is a season we need to compete in, so now with the news on Robert and Engel, who knows what will need to be done.  

[Thad Bosley]

5 minutes ago, Jerksticks said:

Good for you dude.  Enjoy your big boy pants.  Well deserved

Quality.  

[caulfield12]

2 hours ago, ejm3 said:

Rick Hahn would crazy to trade Eloy. Eloy is a generational talent that not only can produce 35-40 HR's & 100 plus RBI's a year as a .280-.300 hitter, but he is huge motivational and positive attitude player the team dugout needs. The Sox miss that energy and enthusiasm that Eloy brought to the team last year. Without Eloy the team doesn't seem to be having as much fun as last year. 

Or TLR and a front office not aligned with ownership...?   Yermin, TA and Hendriks bring plenty of emotion.

[poppysox]

18 minutes ago, Thad Bosley said:

So we’ve moved from an off-season of crazy trade ideas for Kopech, Vaughn, and Madrigal to ones now of Eloy and Crochet.  Aye caromba!  What’s wrong with you people!  Always wanting to jettison our prime, elite young talent.  Stop!

just take a breath and look where we are at.  Yes, we lost Eloy, but for the moment, Yermin is filling the void he left.  Robert is out for however long he’ll be out, but you replace one elite part of his game, his defense, with the return of Engel.  If Engel can continue showing he’s at least average offensively, then why the need to go and trade a top prospect either for a rental (like Bryant) or some tier two level outfielders like the many suggested in this thread.  

Whats more important than anything for our team (and it was true even before the Robert injury) is for Jose, Yasmani, and Yoan to provide the level of offense expected from each.  If and when we get those three going, and combine that with what we are already seeing with TA, Mercedes, Nicky, and an improving Vaughn, we should have plenty of offense to win this division.  Heck, we are already at the top of the league in offense even with those three scuffling so far.  Imagine what happens when they start to return to their norms!

So a big HARD PASS on knee-jerk reactions to Robert’s injury by trading away any of our premium prospects or talent.  The challenges in front of the team can be solved internally with our own guys.  Revisit it again at the trade deadline if need be, but for now, dance with the ones who brung you!

 

I agree with you.   Hard to do but not throw the baby out with the bath water.

[South Side Hit Men]

8 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Or TLR and a front office not aligned with ownership...?   Yermin, TA and Hendriks bring plenty of emotion.

The FO and Manager are not aligned. 

The manager and team are not aligned.

The owner and FO were not aligned.

This is what dysfunction looks like.

[TheTruth05]

Really hope TLR doesn’t follow Frank on Twitter