Tony La Russa tied for 2nd in all time wins!

[Tnetennba]

1 minute ago, SCCWS said:

Tnetennba:  I don't think TLR should ever have been named manager after a 2nd DUI. But we are stuck with him.  However the team is performing really well so I am happy despite him. But I ask you, who is the last White Sox manager you like?  Ozzie, Robin and Ricky have all left the Sox with most posters glad they are gone. Most posters wish TLR was gone as well but at least the team's performance so far makes it more palatable.

I loved Ozzie until about 2008/9.  He was bad after and then burned the bridge on the way out so I have to separate out those two periods.  Robin was one of my favorite players growing up and I was happy with him for a year until it was quite obvious he didn’t have the chops for the job.  RR was likable but he was obviously a poor game manager.  TLR is also a poor game manager and also a shitty person IMO with all sorts of issues that seem to pop up randomly.  Him being bad now is just inescapable regardless of what he did in years past.  

[tray]

It is easy for an anonymous poster to question LaRussa's  character, but it makes me wonder about theirs.

 

 

 

[harkness99]

9 minutes ago, tray said:

It is easy for an anonymous poster to question LaRussa's  character, but it makes me wonder about theirs.

 

 

 

Yeah because I'm sure everyone you know that questions people's character only happens on the internet.....

 

DUI's are not the final word on someone's character - probably 95% of this board has been in a position where they could have gotten one.

However I would never expect in 2021 to get a high profile job with this hanging over me... 

I think in Larussa's older age he probably is a much easier going person, but most people aren't really complaining about that - it's that he manages the games like its 1989.

Edited June 6, 2021 by harkness99

[IWokeUpLikeThis]

Tony has been a meme two games in a row. First, the horrified backed-into-a-corner shot Friday. Then this iconic gif Saturday. Great to see him having so much fun in the clubhouse. 

 

[SCCWS]

52 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

I loved Ozzie until about 2008/9.  He was bad after and then burned the bridge on the way out so I have to separate out those two periods.  Robin was one of my favorite players growing up and I was happy with him for a year until it was quite obvious he didn’t have the chops for the job.  RR was likable but he was obviously a poor game manager.  TLR is also a poor game manager and also a shitty person IMO with all sorts of issues that seem to pop up randomly.  Him being bad now is just inescapable regardless of what he did in years past.  

So basically you don't like any of the last 3 managers . But at least TLR is winning so until that changes we are stuck w him.

[Tnetennba]

15 minutes ago, SCCWS said:

So basically you don't like any of the last 3 managers . But at least TLR is winning so until that changes we are stuck w him.

It is more nuanced than that.  Ozzie was good, even great, until he wasn't.  Robin wasn't good but the talent was poor and aging.  RR was actually pretty good overseeing the rebuild but once the talent matured it was clear he wasn't the right manager to lead them forward.  TLR is not the right manager either, and yes we are stuck with him, but he has great talent that wins despite him most of the time.  And there have been times they have lost because of him.  So its less about liking the manager himself and more about the job they are doing with the talent that they have.  And even with all of the talent TLR has he is still bad at this in 2021.  Which is my whole point.

[South Side Hit Men]

2 hours ago, ron883 said:

This is like if a washed up player finally hit his 600th homerun, but instead of congratulating the player, you just harp on the fact that he isn't a good player anymore. 

Tony La Russa intentionally walked said washed up player before he was DFA’d by Anaheim a few weeks later.

[tray]

8 hours ago, Tnetennba said:

It is more nuanced than that.

Fascinating.

 

 

[oldsox]

I wonder how good or how bad a manager Connie Mack was.  I was around for his last few years, but was too young to know anything.

[VAfan]

Everyone is saying TLR is now #2 all-time.

What they fail to point out is that John McGraw only managed segregated baseball, and Connie Mack only managed 4 seasons (out of 53) without complete segregation, and it was hardly integrated, as only Jackie Robinson and Larry Doby and maybe a few others were playing from 1947-50, Mack's last year. 

If you divide integrated baseball from segregated baseball, TLR has the same 2,764 wins, and he's way ahead of #2. 

Next up is Bobby Cox with 2,504.
Joe Torre with 2,326
Sparky Anderson 2,194
Walter Alston 2,040
Bruch Bochy 2.003

That's the list of managers who only managed integrated baseball who exceeded 2,000 wins. 

Dusty Baker at 1,923 is likely to get there before he's done. 

 

[South Side Hit Men]

17 minutes ago, VAfan said:

Everyone is saying TLR is now #2 all-time.

What they fail to point out is that John McGraw only managed segregated baseball, and Connie Mack only managed 4 seasons (out of 53) without complete segregation, and it was hardly integrated, as only Jackie Robinson and Larry Doby and maybe a few others were playing from 1947-50, Mack's last year. 

If you divide integrated baseball from segregated baseball, TLR has the same 2,764 wins, and he's way ahead of #2. 

Next up is Bobby Cox with 2,504.
Joe Torre with 2,326
Sparky Anderson 2,194
Walter Alston 2,040
Bruch Bochy 2.003

That's the list of managers who only managed integrated baseball who exceeded 2,000 wins. 

Dusty Baker at 1,923 is likely to get there before he's done. 

 

And on the flippity flip

Most managerial losses post Jackie Robinson

1. Tony La Russa 2,388 (.536)
2. Gene Mauch 2,037 (.483)
3. Bruce Bochy 2,029 (.497)
4. Bobby Cox 2,001 (.556)
5. Joe Torre 1,997 (.538)
6. Sparky Anderson 1,834 (.545)
7. Jim Leyland 1,728 (.506)
8. Lou Piniella 1,713 (.517)
9. Dusty Baker 1,693 (.532)
10. Walter Alston 1,613 (.558)

[IWokeUpLikeThis]

3 hours ago, oldsox said:

I wonder how good or how bad a manager Connie Mack was.  I was around for his last few years, but was too young to know anything.

I’ve always wondered what people said about him back the . His career is absolutely mystifying. 5 WS & 8 pennants but 17 last place finishes. 

Adding to the mystique is he looks like someone from a horror film.

Edited June 7, 2021 by IWokeUpLikeThis

[IWokeUpLikeThis]

52 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

And on the flippity flip

Most managerial losses post Jackie Robinson

1. Tony La Russa 2,388 (.536)
2. Gene Mauch 2,037 (.483)
3. Bruce Bochy 2,029 (.497)
4. Bobby Cox 2,001 (.556)
5. Joe Torre 1,997 (.538)
6. Sparky Anderson 1,834 (.545)
7. Jim Leyland 1,728 (.506)
8. Lou Piniella 1,713 (.517)
9. Dusty Baker 1,693 (.532)
10. Walter Alston 1,613 (.558)

Esteemed company to be in. Half those guys are already Hall of Famers. 

[Texsox]

Wins are a meaningless stat. They just lead to other meaningless stats like pennants and world series wins. 

[The Grinder]

On 6/6/2021 at 1:09 AM, South Side Hit Men said:

It's the primary reason he returned. It stuck in his craw that he sat second in all time losses for decades, while remaining third in wins after hanging it up.

His White Sox Managerial Record is the primary concern of most of us on SoxTalk.

White Sox Managerial Win Records:

1. Jimmy Dykes 899 (13 seasons .489) 
2. Al Lopez 840 (11 seasons .564) - American League Pennant Winner
3. Ozzie Guillen 678 (8 seasons .524) - World Series Winner
4. Tony La Russa 557 (9th season .511)

White Sox Managerial Winning Percentage Records:

1. Fielder Jones .592 - World Series Winner
2. Clark Griffith .581 - American League Champion (pre World Series Era)
3. Pants Rowland .578 - World Series Winner
4. Marty Manon .565
5. Al Lopez .564 - American League Pennant Winner
6. Gene Lamont .551
7. Paul Richards .529
8. Bob Lemon .525
9. Ozzie Guillen .524 - World Series Winner
10. Eddie Collins .521
11. Kid Gleason .519 - American League Pennant Winner
12. Jerry Manuel .515
13. Jeff Torborg .515
14. Billy Sullivan .514
15. Tony La Russa .511

White Sox Post Season Managerial Records:

1. Ozzie Guillen .750 - 1 World Series Championship (4-0 over the Houston Astros); 1 ALCS Championship; 1-1 Division Series Championships
2. Fielder Jones .667 - 1 World Series Championship (4-2 over the Chicago Cubs)
3. Pants Rowland .667 - 1 World Series Championship (4-2 over the New York Giants)
4. Kid Gleason .375 - 1 American League Pennant (Lost World Series 5-3 vs. the Cincinnati Reds)
5. Al Lopez .333 - 1 American League Pennant (Lost World Series 4-2 vs. the Los Angeles Dodgers)
6. Gene Lamont .333 - Lost American League Championship 4-2 to the Toronto Blue Jays
7. Ricky Renteria .333 - Lost Wild Card Round 2-1 vs. the Oakland Athletics
8. Tony La Russa .250 - Lost American League Championship Series 3-1 vs. the Baltimore Orioles
9. Jerry Manual .000 - Lost American League Division Series 3-0 vs. the Seattle Mariners

What no Terry Bevington? Must be an omission.....

[caulfield12]

3 hours ago, The Grinder said:

What no Terry Bevington? Must be an omission.....

 

.509, below TLR, and just...fittingly.

No postseasons 1995-1997.

[ron883]

16 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

And on the flippity flip

Most managerial losses post Jackie Robinson

1. Tony La Russa 2,388 (.536)
2. Gene Mauch 2,037 (.483)
3. Bruce Bochy 2,029 (.497)
4. Bobby Cox 2,001 (.556)
5. Joe Torre 1,997 (.538)
6. Sparky Anderson 1,834 (.545)
7. Jim Leyland 1,728 (.506)
8. Lou Piniella 1,713 (.517)
9. Dusty Baker 1,693 (.532)
10. Walter Alston 1,613 (.558)

It's pretty amazing that with all the stacked Yankees teams Joe Torre had, his win% is only .2% above TLR

[southsider2k5]

This is a great way of putting it.  Nice read.

https://theathletic.com/2635429/2021/06/06/fegan-what-im-looking-for-when-i-question-white-sox-manager-tony-la-russa/?source=dailyemail

[South Side Hit Men]

51 minutes ago, ron883 said:

It's pretty amazing that with all the stacked Yankees teams Joe Torre had, his win% is only .2% above TLR

"Clueless" Joe was stuck with a 134 game under .500 record managing the late 1970s / early 1980s Mets (286-420) to start his career. That's a big hole, even for Joe Pesci, to dig out.

Also, liked the Fegan article regarding the challenges he faces covering Tony, who looks at him as the only reporter asking probing questions. Has to get under Tony's skin that James know the rulebook better than him. Hopefully James will be covering a new White Sox manager in 2022.

Would say the best managers in my lifetime were Earl Weaver and Davey Johnson (who played for Earl), both far ahead of the curve in terms of strategy and intuitive knowledge of the proper strategy decades before their tactics were utilized widely. Davey Johnson is one of three managers in MLB history who took four different teams to the playoffs, with the Casey Stengel mentored Billy Martin and underappreciated Dusty Baker being the other two.

Tony could learn from Earl's pregame spoof (language advisory) regarding fleas on the bases and playing for home runs and big innings.

 

Edited June 7, 2021 by South Side Hit Men

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, South Side Hit Men said:

"Clueless" Joe was stuck with a 134 game under .500 record managing the late 1970s / early 1980s Mets (286-420) to start his career. That's a big hole, even for Joe Pesci, to dig out.

Also, liked the Fegan article regarding the challenges he faces covering Tony, who looks at him as the only reporter asking probing questions. Has to get under Tony's skin that James know the rulebook better than him. Hopefully James will be covering a new White Sox manager in 2022.

Would say the best managers in my lifetime were Earl Weaver and Davey Johnson (who played for Earl), both far ahead of the curve in terms of strategy and intuitive knowledge of the proper strategy decades before their tactics were utilized widely. Davey Johnson is one of three managers in MLB history who took four different teams to the playoffs, with the Casey Stengel mentored Billy Martin and underappreciated Dusty Baker being the other two.

Tony could learn from Earl's pregame spoof (language advisory) regarding fleas on the bases and playing for home runs and big innings.

 

And he had a pretty good record with those 1982-84 Braves teams...

Edited June 7, 2021 by caulfield12

[chitownsportsfan]

2 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

This is a great way of putting it.  Nice read.

https://theathletic.com/2635429/2021/06/06/fegan-what-im-looking-for-when-i-question-white-sox-manager-tony-la-russa/?source=dailyemail

Sometimes I think the manager is too close to the game. Yea, sure that was the score at the time and you had some decent speed aboard but also Detroit couldn't get an out, their pitching staff was rattled (it was Holland right?) and there are quite a few other ways the runners get moved up that don't involve giving away an out.

Just stop bunting so much, that's all we ask.  It's almost never smart.  Bottom of 9 in a tie game is pretty much the only time it's justified by the run expectancy.