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Does TLR need to light up the umpires more?

Does TLR need to light up the umpires more?  

38 members have voted

  1. 1. Does TLR need to light up the umpires more?

    • No
    • Yes, but it will not earn the Sox more strike calls
    • Yes, this will cause the umpires to call more borderline strikes for Sox pitchers


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Posted (edited)

This topic came up during the game today. The umpire blew 2 big strike calls while Burr was pitching. Burr got robbed of 2 strikeouts. Ethan Katz got thrown out for complaining from the dugout. TLR talked with the ump, but didn't get thrown out. 

Some people in the game thread were angry that Tony wasn't defending his guy much. Some even thought that if Tony would complain to the umpires more, the Sox would get more borderline strike calls. Do you think Tony needs to lay into the umpires more, and possibly get thrown out of some games while defending the team? 

Edited by ron883

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There was an article last year interviewing college football officials, and they named Urban Meyer as the coach who argues least, going on to say they’d go through entire games without interaction. 

People could name good and bad coaches who argue or don’t argue with officials. I don’t think there’s any impact with MLB umpires.

What makes an actual impact is the catcher’s ability behind the plate. ron posted this earlier:

https://www.soxmachine.com/2021/07/02/unfavorable-strike-zones-have-been-costly-to-the-white-sox/

Based on umpire scorecards, the Sox are +0.25 runs when Grandal is catching and -10 runs when Collins is catching. This points to Collins being SO bad, that the Sox get docked that many calls when he is catching (as little as he does). It's most definitely a Collins issue. Tony bitching wouldn't change that. 

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All that said, I am surprised Tony doesn’t argue with umpires as didn’t he get into numerous confrontations with the Cardinals, or is that just my imagination? 

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32 minutes ago, IWokeUpLikeThis said:

All that said, I am surprised Tony doesn’t argue with umpires as didn’t he get into numerous confrontations with the Cardinals, or is that just my imagination? 

Yes and no. He is 5th on the all time ejections list, but he managed twice + as long as most of the others on the list. He was quick to challenge various media members to physical and verbal confrontations over the years, well at least those he thought he could take. For instance, there were no reports he went after Don Drysdale for calling him a "little dago" during a Sox broadcast. He was also involved in a bunch of petty unwritten rules and beanball wars that the prissy Cardinals are well known for. 

The key factor in terms of standing up for his players and staff is do they feel he has their backs? After the Yermin incident, all players who publicly commented sided with Yermin for playing to win over Tony's playing for the unwritten rules. Not sure if his age/health conditions/status allow him to do much of anything these days, beyond attempting to yell at Yermin to take pitches. Just one of the drawbacks of having a manager which time and the game passed by a very long time ago. He definitely won't challenge Amos Alonzo Stagg in the longevity department.

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Posted (edited)

so imagine you are officiating a sport - a close call happens and you call it team As way - in your head you are like "that was close i might have got that wrong" No one on team B really says anything too much about it. 

other scenerio - close call might have got that wrong and it goes Team A's way.  Team B is irrate and a little chaos ensues from the bench. You as the official has to defend the call and the situation gets a bit out of hand. putting the spotlight on your call and causing stress on you and the other officials.

In which scenario do you think team B is likely to get a favorable call the next time?

 

Now you could say an official wouldn't give into being pressured by the coaches or be spiteful or whatever... and that might happen, but overall I don't see you can conclude the the scenario with the official getting no pressure from the coach is going to increase the chances of getting the call next time.

You ever watched basketball and how more than often they will try to "Even out" the number of foul calls - eventhough often times it shouldn't be even? officials are human and will often make the mistake of adjusting calls in order to be fair rather than what may be the correct call.  

Anyone who ever told you you get nothing in life from bitching didnt know what they were talking about.  More people than not want to avoid conflict and stress. When you are an official and shit is going south it often makes you look like a bad official.  How many times when we see arguing in games do we here something like "well this official has lost control of the game."

 

It's also about standing up for your players and your team, even if it will have no effect on the calls, as many people have pointed out.

 

it may not always make a difference - but

 

Does anyone think doing nothing and saying nothing is really the right response?

 

 

Edited by harkness99
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Tony should get a little hotter. It isn't going to hurt, and may get the Sox a call or 2 down the road. Obviously we don't know what he is saying from the dugout, but he rarely makes an appearance on the field, even though there has been several times it had been, as has getting ejected, been warranted. Katz got thrown out saying it was not up. This isn't Little League. Tony used to throw bases. Granted, at his advanced age, he may throw out his back if he tried, but his team has been screwed by bad balls and strikes calls more than most. Get tossed, see if it helps.

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It shouldn't take his pitching coach getting tossed for TLR to say something to the umps after consequential blown calls.

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Hallion missed the same pitches for the Tigers, so I doubt it would’ve made a difference.

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Managers rarely get ejected now because of instant replay corrects bad calls. Replay can't change strike/ball calls but arguing them is an automatic ejection. So don't expect Tony to get into too many heated arguments

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I remember Earl Weaver and Billy Martin turning their hats backwards so they could rub noses with the ump.

I thought they were the "All-Star Wrestling" managers in baseball. Seemed fake and everybody knew it, but loved it anyway.

I think Tony handled it just fine. Asked his questions, made some statements.

Play ball.

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I'm honestly surprised so many people think bitching at the umpires will result in more strike calls. 

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7 hours ago, ron883 said:

I'm honestly surprised so many people think bitching at the umpires will result in more strike calls. 

Bitching? 

No.

But coming out and asking him to explain his zone may result in a call or two down the road.  

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Tony is just too old at this point to do so. I'm not even saying that as a joke, I'm not sure if that's good for his blood pressure at this point. Hell, Lou Pinella had to tone it down alot in his last season because of that and he was 10 years younger than La Russa is now. 

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26 minutes ago, black jack said:

Bitching? 

No.

But coming out and asking him to explain his zone may result in a call or two down the road.  

What's different about the manager doing that and the catcher turning around to ask about a call? Catchers do it all the time. 

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33 minutes ago, SoxAce said:

Tony is just too old at this point to do so. I'm not even saying that as a joke, I'm not sure if that's good for his blood pressure at this point. Hell, Lou Pinella had to tone it down alot in his last season because of that and he was 10 years younger than La Russa is now. 

i figured this was the case.

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39 minutes ago, SoxAce said:

Tony is just too old at this point to do so. I'm not even saying that as a joke, I'm not sure if that's good for his blood pressure at this point. Hell, Lou Pinella had to tone it down alot in his last season because of that and he was 10 years younger than La Russa is now. 

If you aren't physically able to get into it with an umpire to defend your players, then you have no business being a major league manager and whomever hired you has no business owning a major league team.

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1 hour ago, WhiteSoxFan1993 said:

If you aren't physically able to get into it with an umpire to defend your players, then you have no business being a major league manager and whomever hired you has no business owning a major league team.

Tons of coaches have had success without “physically getting into it”. There are other ways to get your point across, like having an adult conversation. 

And we don’t even know if he’s not physically able. That’s an assumption. 

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3 hours ago, ron883 said:

What's different about the manager doing that and the catcher turning around to ask about a call? Catchers do it all the time. 

With Yas, yes that would probably work, but TLR has a bit more pull than Collins.

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Alright folks, Tony got thrown out of the game. Now we can see if him ripping into umpires will have a noticeable effect on the strikes. I'm honestly surprised how many people voted yes. 

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Posted (edited)

The game yesterday was lost by the time Tony and Tim were tossed.

Let’s see how the umpiring unfolds the rest of this series before jumping to any conclusions regarding the effectiveness of these protests.

I expect the umpire score cards to improve today and tomorrow.

Edited by South Side Hit Men

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I wonder/imagine umpires get reviewed and do their own review after something like last night happens.  I wonder how often either side approaches the other and admits error?

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Seems many yrs ago there was about 3 players from a team get ejected over a terrible blown call and IIRC their logic was that this would make sports news and the umpire would get exposed as blowing the call 

can umps get demoted to AAA if they are deemed incompetent?

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