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Today's Crazy Play as I Saw it

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, harkness99 said:

it looked like moncada thought about going back to the plate but then he saw the umpire signal safe.. so he was like okay im good.

so not really "end of story"

That's where I am at with it. It is the one play in baseball that is like blowing the whistle in an NFL game The Brewers made no attempt to go tag him. 

In fact while watching the game I mentioned to my wife he looked like he missed the plate, but I told her he must have got it since the umpire signaled safe. No need to go back and get it.

With as clearly the replay showed he missed home and as lengthy as that process took, all the things we are mentioning were most likely discussed. They probably had to look at the replay rules themselves. 

Edited by Dick Allen

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22 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

There are situations subject to appeal, that do not require a manager's challenge, or are even precluded from requesting a manager's challenge. Appealing to a 1B/3B umpire for a check swing / full swing, is one instance of a play which can be appealed, but cannot be subject to a manger's challenge (replay review request).

Hopefully the Sox use it as a lesson learned situation, both for players (make sure you touch home) and their manager/coaches (you can appeal a play and then institute a managers challenge). Could be in a situation far more important than a game in mid-July.

Like you said you can appeal a check swing but it cannot be challenged. Why would this be any different? Dumb rule.

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10 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Like you said you can appeal a check swing but it cannot be challenged. Why would this be any different? Dumb rule.

I don't even know why you have to appeal check swings, the 1st and 3rd base umpires should have to signal a swing if they thought he swung without an appeal.  

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56 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

So basically a loophole in the rule? Dumb

Yeah, that is apparently the exactly correct term. A team getting 90 seconds for their booth to look at a play before sending in a challenge to New York is definitely against the spirit of the pace of play rule. And a 90 second pause, followed by 10 minutes of discussion, followed by Moncada is out and Collins is up for reasons that weren’t explained at all…could not have been very pleasant for fans in the ballpark. The only people who had any idea what was going on in the whole park had to have tv or radio feed going.

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25 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

That's where I am at with it. It is the one play in baseball that is like blowing the whistle in an NFL game The Brewers made no attempt to go tag him. 

In fact while watching the game I mentioned to my wife he looked like he missed the plate, but I told her he must have got it since the umpire signaled safe. No need to go back and get it.

With as clearly the replay showed he missed home and as lengthy as that process took, all the things we are mentioning were most likely discussed. They probably had to look at the replay rules themselves. 

The way it seems to me is that there were two steps to the review. 

1. did he tag the plate the first time. No he did not. 

2. did he come back and tag the plate after missing it? No he didn’t, but the umpire told him not to by signaling safe. 

So how can you assume what Moncada’s behavior would have been had the ump not signaled safe? You can’t. 

The default ruling for an ump at the plate should apparently be that you don’t signal safe unless you are 100% certain, because if you signal safe and he missed the plate, you will almost always trigger this response because the player is trained to get out of the way when safe is called so that they don’t interfere with an ongoing play.

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3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Yeah, that is apparently the exactly correct term. A team getting 90 seconds for their booth to look at a play before sending in a challenge to New York is definitely against the spirit of the pace of play rule. And a 90 second pause, followed by 10 minutes of discussion, followed by Moncada is out and Collins is up for reasons that weren’t explained at all…could not have been very pleasant for fans in the ballpark. The only people who had any idea what was going on in the whole park had to have tv or radio feed going.

In this instance,  they clearly didn't need the extra time to view the play, however,  it is very possible they had no idea to even review it until someone on the TV crew mentioned it 

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32 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

That's where I am at with it. It is the one play in baseball that is like blowing the whistle in an NFL game

Pretty crazy that this play happened yesterday, because a similar situation happened in my softball game over the weekend. Man on second, one out. Line drive up the middle deflects off the pitcher and hits the runner. The ump immediately calls the runner out for being hit by a batted ball. The batter stops (thinking it’s a dead ball, because that’s what the ump incorrectly called), but then realizes the SS is picking up the ball, so he continues running and is out at first. Then the umps get together and put the runner back on second because you’re not out if the ball first deflects off a defender. So they got that part of the call right. However, I believe the batter should have been given first base. He stopped running at first because the umps screwed up and incorrectly called a dead ball. It made me think of an inadvertent whistle in football. 

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Especially in the age of replay, I would hope a runner would be absolutely sure he tagged home before walking away. I don't care what the call is. If there is any doubt, just go back and tag the plate again. 

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8 hours ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Yeah, I'm not buying this. Great teams beat good ones. Great teams execute their pitches. Great teams get hits when their teams need them. Great teams make the plays when they need to be made.

Missing the fucking plate with your foot is little leaguer shit. Bitching about the umps when the other team is royally kicking your ass is weak sauce. 

Wanna win? Make the fucking plays. Tag the plate. Don't fucking walk the yard. Get hits. Stop giving up homers every fucking game. Stop bitching at the umps. Stop letting good teams beat you.

Then there won't be any "Murphy's Law," or whatever other excuse we can gin up.

LOL That was just my explanation for what happened without blaming Moncada.  I think if we put ourselves in the same situation, since we all know so much, we probably react the same as Moncada ( if we had accidently missed home and wasn't really sure if we did).

I never said the Sox were a good team on the road. In fact I said the opposite , that they play like crap on the road against good teams. It's why I want reinforcements at the trade deadline. I just also threw in that it doesn't help to screw up and for the most part they made their own Murphy's Law luck.

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5 minutes ago, NWINFan said:

Especially in the age of replay, I would hope a runner would be absolutely sure he tagged home before walking away. I don't care what the call is. If there is any doubt, just go back and tag the plate again. 

It seems they have to, but this will create other problems. Guys are taught to get out of the way to avoid interfering with an ongoing play. If everyone comes back to tag home plate after sliding or running past it, it will not take long before someone is trying to do that and another runner or a defensive is coming in and trying to get to that same space.

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Moncada missed the plate end of story no matter how this is spin every moment on the field counts got to have your head on the game love me some Moncada but that's on the player

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8 minutes ago, NWINFan said:

Especially in the age of replay, I would hope a runner would be absolutely sure he tagged home before walking away. I don't care what the call is. If there is any doubt, just go back and tag the plate again. 

That's what I thought, and the on deck guy Collins was asleep at the wheel, acting like a spectator.

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Moncada would've easily made it back to the plate if the ump didn't signal him safe.  Once he signaled safe the play is over.  The ump messed up and, imo replay made the wrong call.

 

That being said, it's inexcusable to miss the plate.  He knew he missed it and should've taken the extra care to go back and touch regardless of the ump's call. 

I would've.    

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6 minutes ago, oldsox said:

That's what I thought, and the on deck guy Collins was asleep at the wheel, acting like a spectator.

I know Collins is a punching bag so any time you can take a shot, do so, but 2 things...first there is no way he had  time on that play to get around home from the on deck circle, and second, the umpire confirmed he hit home plate.

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

I know Collins is a punching bag so any time you can take a shot, do so, but 2 things...first there is no way he had  time on that play to get around home from the on deck circle, and second, the umpire confirmed he hit home plate.

When’s the last time the on-deck hitter was involved in a similar situation at home plate and successfully intervened in some way…besides the obligatory slide/don’t slide?

Seems like the kind of thing that happens just a handful of times across hundreds of games every season. 

Edited by caulfield12

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1 hour ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

The replay apologists (Benetti) say the reason for replay is to get the call right. Moncada clearly missed homeplate and replay got the call right but now those same people (Benetti) are crying about the process.  Can't have it both ways.  

It's so hard to touch home plate or go back and do it again. 

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

When’s the last time the on-deck hitter was involved in a similar situation at home plate and successfully intervened in some way…besides the obligatory slide/don’t slide?

Seems like the kind of thing that happens just a handful of times across hundreds of games every season. 

Right and those are plays where the guy has time to get to the plate, not some little roller to the pitcher. If the umpire didn't give the safe call, then he could give Collins some heat for not noticing  . Besides, the play was in front of Moncada, nothing for Collins to do.

Edited by Dick Allen

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2 hours ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

The replay apologists (Benetti) say the reason for replay is to get the call right. Moncada clearly missed homeplate and replay got the call right but now those same people (Benetti) are crying about the process.  Can't have it both ways.  

Normally, I'd agree. Two things make this different. One is the 20 second rule. The second is that the home plate ump gave the safe sign. Moncada saw that and assumed that meant he touched the plate. If the runner doesn't touch the plate on a play, the ump makes no sign--safe or out. This umpire's error, I believe, overrides what's seen on the replay. Benetti was perfect on his announcing of this play.

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10 minutes ago, pcq said:

It's so hard to touch home plate or go back and do it again. 

You have a point. Spikes are a lot more comfortable these days nut when I played, I definitely would be able to tell if I hit it or not when not sliding. The entire problem is the umpire confirmed he hit it, so time to get away. The Brewers didn't bother to tag him for the same reason. 

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2 minutes ago, buckweaver said:

I'm surprised the Sox didn't protest this game.

No longer allowed. Just rely on the ump's expertise and the Sox playoff focus. 

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3 minutes ago, buckweaver said:

I'm surprised the Sox didn't protest this game.

They had nothing to protest. I am sure most of the delay was searching replay rules. And this particular play probably is so rare it never was considered.  The umpires on the field and in the replay room knew this was a bit unfair because of the safe sign, and were probably trying to find a way around it. The replay was obvious. I bet that it gets written into the replay rules next season where once an umpire signals safe, whether or not he touched home is not reviewable. 

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Someone said it earlier, and I agree that signaling safe at home plate is the equivalent of an NFL ref blowing the whistle. The play is essentially dead at that point considering the player who “scored” goes to the dugout.

NFL refs blowing the whistle early happens waaaay to often, and often results in potential game changing plays not being allowed. This is similar. If Moncada hears or sees the safe call, there’s no reason for him to go back to touch the plate. 
Oh well,  let’s scrape out a win today and maybe pick up another game on the Guardians.

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Posted (edited)

I didn't realize it's no longer allowed. To me, it all comes down to the home plate ump giving the safe sign during the play...as many here have detailed. Right or wrong, it ended the play for Moncada...no way of knowing if he would have gone back to touch the plate. And how do you call him out if he was never tagged? (Admittedly, I don't recall whether he was tagged or not...but someone here said he wasn't, so I'm going with that). No matter, though...the safe call ended the play.

Edited by buckweaver

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1 minute ago, Middle Buffalo said:

Someone said it earlier, and I agree that signaling safe at home plate is the equivalent of an NFL ref blowing the whistle. The play is essentially dead at that point considering the player who “scored” goes to the dugout.

NFL refs blowing the whistle early happens waaaay to often, and often results in potential game changing plays not being allowed. This is similar. If Moncada hears or sees the safe call, there’s no reason for him to go back to touch the plate. 
Oh well,  let’s scrape out a win today and maybe pick up another game on the Guardians.

That's right and the fact is the Brewers didn't go tag him for the same reason. Seems a little unfair one side still has recourse 5 minutes later and one side does not.

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