Sox Acquire Kimbrel; Madrigal, Heuer to Cubs

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, oldsox said:

I can't help wondering if Hahn traded Madrigal partly because of the two infielders he got at the top of this draft, thiinkng that one of them will be ready in 2 years or so?

I really don’t think they’re banking on two HS draft picks that profile as 3B to be the answer at 2B in two years.

[Dick Allen]

2 hours ago, Sleepy Harold said:

Lime(Line) Hendriks

Greg Kembral. This guy is awesome.

[Balta1701]

I don’t know if anyone has said this one but I haven’t seen this yet. One other benefit? It’s LaRussa proof.

There’s no more “hey I have to see if Evan Marshall can handle the 8th inning against Trout and Rendon” or “I can’t pitch Kopech today in the 8th what if I need a long reliever 2 days from now” or “sure Bummer needs work but I might need him in the 8th so I have to save him” or “I have to use Hendriks as the runner in the 10th.” We won’t lose a tie game in the 9th because LaRussa is saving his closer for a save situation because he can still have one to collect the stat. 

This clears out like half of the items in my WTF was LaRussa thinking list. I’m sure it’s still possible for him to blow a game with Ruiz on the mound in the 8th for reasons no human will get, but over this season ending LaRussa bullpen confusion losses would be like 3 or 4 more wins easily. Maybe more.

[Dick Allen]

5 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I don’t know if anyone has said this one but I haven’t seen this yet. One other benefit? It’s LaRussa proof.

There’s no more “hey I have to see if Evan Marshall can handle the 8th inning against Trout and Rendon” or “I can’t pitch Kopech today in the 8th what if I need a long reliever 2 days from now” or “sure Bummer needs work but I might need him in the 8th so I have to save him” or “I have to use Hendriks as the runner in the 10th.” We won’t lose a tie game in the 9th because LaRussa is saving his closer for a save situation because he can still have one to collect the stat. 

This clears out like half of the items in my WTF was LaRussa thinking list. I’m sure it’s still possible for him to blow a game with Ruiz on the mound in the 8th for reasons no human will get, but over this season ending LaRussa bullpen confusion losses would be like 3 or 4 more wins easily. Maybe more.

And also ends the 6 out save, although it’s been successful, it will probably aid Hendriks as the games pile up.

[ThatBallHitDeep_WAYBack]

2nd base is the most replaceable position on the field.  Hell, even Mike Moustakas' vending machine body can play 2nd. 

 

2023 MLB 2nd Base FA's - Ketel Marte (club option {trade?}) & Adam Frazier -- Cesar Hernandez ({also FA} will hold the fort the next 1.5 years).  

 

Until Nick "Disabled List" Madrigal plays 140 games plus annually, Sox win this trade all day long.

Edited July 31, 2021 by ThatBallHitDeep_WAYBack

[GREEDY]

If Kimbrel stays dominant through the playoffs I predict his value on the open market would be similar to Hendricks 4/55.  Maybe a tad less.  So on a 1/16 deal there is real value there.  

With only maybe a dozen teams shopping at the deadline for relief help and many clubs already way over the luxury tax threshold, it seems reasonable that there should be equal to or more of a market for an elite reliever next offseason.

I personally think it is unlikely the Sox will keep two relievers making 30 million dollars on the roster next season, I predict the Sox get a similar or better return for Kimbrel than they paid yesterday.  The biggest risk to this deal is the chance that Kimbrel struggles or gets hurt and damages his value.  

[Balta1701]

35 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

And also ends the 6 out save, although it’s been successful, it will probably aid Hendriks as the games pile up.

I actually like those somewhat since Hendriks is used to pitching 80+ innings a year and he’s on pace for fewer than 70. We paid for the arm, use it - and Tony doesn’t.

If I counted correctly, the White Sox bullpen is 14-6 at home and 6-13 on the road. How many of those losses on the road happened because LaRussa was saving Hendriks for a save situation- which only comes in a close game on the road if your bullpen holds in the late inning? A tie game at home in the 9th he will use Hendriks because there’s no save to be recorded. So this could really help with the weakness the Sox have in road games.

[The Beast]

34 minutes ago, ThatBallHitDeep_WAYBack said:

2nd base is the most replaceable position on the field.  Hell, even Mike Moustakas' vending machine body can play 2nd. 

 

2023 MLB 2nd Base FA's - Ketel Marte (club option {trade?}) & Adam Frazier -- Cesar Hernandez ({also FA} will hold the fort the next 1.5 years).  

 

Until Nick "Disabled List" Madrigal plays 140 games plus annually, Sox win this trade all day long.

That’s sort of where I’m at too. Over the years they have had so many second basemen, Durham, Graffanino, Iguchi, Harris, etc. it seems like such an easy position to replace. My concern is mostly the team control they gave up and that he becomes a star with the Cubs, but in the small sample size I’ve seen, I don’t see that yet. I’m also not a fan of Kimbrel’s age, but it’s no cause for concern. Hopefully he pitches well and doesn’t get lit up in the first outing like Tepera (or as Guillen says Tempura).

[GermanSoxFan]

While 2B is not the hardest position to field a decent player at, Madrigal makes close to the league minimum. He gives you the option to go get a real right fielder, not the shitshow that we have seen there and will continue to see the rest of the year.

 

I still don’t think acquiring Kimbrel was a good move if it involves giving away 15 future WAR fpr a reliever that is not on a bargain deal in any shpe or form. I wish the Sox had addressed the RF situation with their available resources  and gotten a decent reliever like Rodriguez instead.

 

I just hate paying a premium for something as fickle as relief pitching. Paying huge prices(money or prospects) for relievers almost never works out.

[35thstreetswarm]

12 minutes ago, GermanSoxFan said:

While 2B is not the hardest position to field a decent player at, Madrigal makes close to the league minimum. He gives you the option to go get a real right fielder, not the shitshow that we have seen there and will continue to see the rest of the year.

 

I still don’t think acquiring Kimbrel was a good move if it involves giving away 15 future WAR fpr a reliever that is not on a bargain deal in any shpe or form. I wish the Sox had addressed the RF situation with their available resources  and gotten a decent reliever like Rodriguez instead.

 

I just hate paying a premium for something as fickle as relief pitching. Paying huge prices(money or prospects) for relievers almost never works out.

To be fair, the shit show isn’t really our attempts to fill RF, it’s our attempts to fill RF —while filling CF, plus (sometimes) LF, plus 2b— because of injuries. With our full roster (ie Eloy and Robert back, and now 2b filled) Engel (or likely a platoon) slots in nicely at RF, providing stellar defense, speed and a little pop. I mean I’d love an all-star talent at every position but it’s not strictly necessary.  You could argue that with our lineup a new RF is more of a luxury than a back-end reliever.

But I agree with your overall point.

[ShoeLessRob]

20 minutes ago, GermanSoxFan said:

While 2B is not the hardest position to field a decent player at, Madrigal makes close to the league minimum. He gives you the option to go get a real right fielder, not the shitshow that we have seen there and will continue to see the rest of the year.

 

I still don’t think acquiring Kimbrel was a good move if it involves giving away 15 future WAR fpr a reliever that is not on a bargain deal in any shpe or form. I wish the Sox had addressed the RF situation with their available resources  and gotten a decent reliever like Rodriguez instead.

 

I just hate paying a premium for something as fickle as relief pitching. Paying huge prices(money or prospects) for relievers almost never works out.

💯

[South Side Hit Men]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

I don’t know if anyone has said this one but I haven’t seen this yet. One other benefit? It’s LaRussa proof.

There’s no more “hey I have to see if Evan Marshall can handle the 8th inning against Trout and Rendon” or “I can’t pitch Kopech today in the 8th what if I need a long reliever 2 days from now” or “sure Bummer needs work but I might need him in the 8th so I have to save him” or “I have to use Hendriks as the runner in the 10th.” We won’t lose a tie game in the 9th because LaRussa is saving his closer for a save situation because he can still have one to collect the stat. 

This clears out like half of the items in my WTF was LaRussa thinking list. I’m sure it’s still possible for him to blow a game with Ruiz on the mound in the 8th for reasons no human will get, but over this season ending LaRussa bullpen confusion losses would be like 3 or 4 more wins easily. Maybe more.

I like Hahn and Williams going for it with Kimbrel, especially if it opens up Kopech to start or move to long relief so he can start next season with minor/no limitations. He isn't a starter beyond a few months if he hits 60 or so innings this year.

Kimbrel or Liam? Liam or Kimbrel? Well played Rick and Kenny!

 

[Chicago White Sox]

Assuming travel days between home & road games, we should be able cover the 7th to 9th innings pretty much every night in October with three guys sporting xwOBA’s of 95, 98, & 100 respectively.  That’s absolute insanity and gives us a competitive advantage over pretty much any other team in the playoffs.

[caulfield12]

12 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Assuming travel days between home & road games, we should be able cover the 7th to 9th innings pretty much every night in October with three guys sporting xwOBA’s of 95, 98, & 100 respectively.  That’s absolute insanity and gives us a competitive advantage over pretty much any other team in the playoffs.

If if if Rodon doesn’t continue to regress.

Then you might be forced to go Lynn, Giolito, Kopech…which means they have to bump up Kopech to at least 3 and then 4 inning stints at a time.

[ptatc]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

I actually like those somewhat since Hendriks is used to pitching 80+ innings a year and he’s on pace for fewer than 70. We paid for the arm, use it - and Tony doesn’t.

If I counted correctly, the White Sox bullpen is 14-6 at home and 6-13 on the road. How many of those losses on the road happened because LaRussa was saving Hendriks for a save situation- which only comes in a close game on the road if your bullpen holds in the late inning? A tie game at home in the 9th he will use Hendriks because there’s no save to be recorded. So this could really help with the weakness the Sox have in road games.

With the innings, remember that last year was a down year for all pitchers. Even though they have done it in the past, we have no clue if that decrease last year will tire them out earlier this year. I know Katz said he is not going to treat his pitchers differently this year but it may be wise to pitch all of them under their norms to be sure they are rested and effective for the post season. Treat them carefully as it is looking like they are the strength if this team. If the pitchers wear down for the post season this team will be toast.

[HOFHurt35]

50 minutes ago, GermanSoxFan said:

While 2B is not the hardest position to field a decent player at, Madrigal makes close to the league minimum. He gives you the option to go get a real right fielder, not the shitshow that we have seen there and will continue to see the rest of the year.

 

I still don’t think acquiring Kimbrel was a good move if it involves giving away 15 future WAR fpr a reliever that is not on a bargain deal in any shpe or form. I wish the Sox had addressed the RF situation with their available resources  and gotten a decent reliever like Rodriguez instead.

 

I just hate paying a premium for something as fickle as relief pitching. Paying huge prices(money or prospects) for relievers almost never works out.

The goal is to win this year's World Series.

[kitekrazy]

1 hour ago, The Beast said:

That’s sort of where I’

• Quote

m at too. Over the years they have had so many second basemen, Durham, Graffanino, Iguchi, Harris, etc. it seems like such an easy position to replace. My concern is mostly the team control they gave up and that he becomes a star with the Cubs, but in the small sample size I’ve seen, I don’t see that yet. I’m also not a fan of Kimbrel’s age, but it’s no cause for concern. Hopefully he pitches well and doesn’t get lit up in the first outing like Tepera (or as Guillen says Tempura).

It really wasn't for them this year. 

[Balta1701]

5 minutes ago, kitekrazy said:

It really wasn't for them this year. 

Really? Had they wanted to the could have had Escobar for a bag of balls back in June. They waited and something better became available, but if that race had closed to 1 game, they could have filled it easily.

[kitekrazy]

27 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Really? Had they wanted to the could have had Escobar for a bag of balls back in June. They waited and something better became available, but if that race had closed to 1 game, they could have filled it easily.

Let's pretend like we all have this insider information.

[Chick Mercedes]

2 hours ago, GREEDY said:

If Kimbrel stays dominant through the playoffs I predict his value on the open market would be similar to Hendricks 4/55.  Maybe a tad less.  So on a 1/16 deal there is real value there.  

With only maybe a dozen teams shopping at the deadline for relief help and many clubs already way over the luxury tax threshold, it seems reasonable that there should be equal to or more of a market for an elite reliever next offseason.

I personally think it is unlikely the Sox will keep two relievers making 30 million dollars on the roster next season, I predict the Sox get a similar or better return for Kimbrel than they paid yesterday.  The biggest risk to this deal is the chance that Kimbrel struggles or gets hurt and damages his value.  

I agree. but there will be a discussion over which closer to trade. My prediction is that ultimately we will parlay Madrigal into a solution in right field, or add to the farm system to help recoup Madrigal’s loss. But at the same time I do lean against the Madrigal deal just because it seems like running into a brick wall in the  World Series at best. But getting us there is defensible, again if we can recoup some of the loss of long term talent.

[caulfield12]

10 minutes ago, Chick Mercedes said:

I agree. but there will be a discussion over which closer to trade. My prediction is that ultimately we will parlay Madrigal into a solution in right field, or add to the farm system to help recoup Madrigal’s loss. But at the same time I do lean against the Madrigal deal just because it seems like running into a brick wall in the  World Series at best. But getting us there is defensible, again if we can recoup some of the loss of long term talent.

But that would typically mean replacing a cheap younger player at second with a pricier veteran FA for RF…now if you argued Kimbrel was going to be traded for one (an OFer) in the offseason, that would make more sense.

 

Edited July 31, 2021 by caulfield12

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Was there ever any indication that the Cubs ate any money in the Kimbrel trade ? If the Sox are paying the whole contract and they gave up Madrigal and Heuer  there's definitely the Crosstown Rivalry tax here.

[chitownsportsfan]

2 hours ago, GermanSoxFan said:

While 2B is not the hardest position to field a decent player at, Madrigal makes close to the league minimum. He gives you the option to go get a real right fielder, not the shitshow that we have seen there and will continue to see the rest of the year.

 

I still don’t think acquiring Kimbrel was a good move if it involves giving away 15 future WAR fpr a reliever that is not on a bargain deal in any shpe or form. I wish the Sox had addressed the RF situation with their available resources  and gotten a decent reliever like Rodriguez instead.

 

I just hate paying a premium for something as fickle as relief pitching. Paying huge prices(money or prospects) for relievers almost never works out.

I’d put the over under at 10 for Madrigal career WAR.  He snapped his hamstring that’s bad.  Not many guys come back from that without issues.  That said he is young and I am rooting for him because I hate seeing injuries derail a career.

this is a flags fly forever move from Hahn I respect and appreciate that. 

[SCCWS]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

But that would typically mean replacing a cheap younger player at second with a pricier veteran FA for RF…now if you argued Kimbrel was going to be traded for one (an OFer) in the offseason, that would make more sense.

 

If Burger has value and  is blocked from 3B and Vaughn is not a RF solution, maybe Burger for an OF is another option.  Just me but Kimbrel may be better than Hendricks ( contract  aside). I was very surprised and happy Boston didn't offer a better package for Kimbrel than the WS did. 

[southsider2k5]

I don't know where the Cubs and Sox valued players,  but if I am the Cubs, I would have rather had Burger than Madrigal.