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Sox Acquire Kimbrel; Madrigal, Heuer to Cubs

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4 hours ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

He can take his empty batting avg to an empty team.  It's a match made in heaven.  

Madrigal has a higher wRC+ than Tim Anderson and until a week ago it was higher than Jose Abreu's as well. The Sox lineup is filled with hitters that fall in the ~110-120 wRC+ range and no one struggles to see why most of those guys are valuable, but for some reason with Madrigal people fixate on the lack of power when the end result for him is still a well above-average hitter.

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2 hours ago, TheTruth05 said:

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😂

I mean....he's probably right?  

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10 hours ago, oldsox said:

Heuer goes to Cubs and start throwing strikes. With Sox, he thought strike zone was a foot outside.  Still love the trades, however.

Pressure or lack of it is a real thing. 

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1 hour ago, poppysox said:

Pressure or lack of it is a real thing. 

What about his stats in 2020?

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10 hours ago, WhiteSoxFan1993 said:

I think there's still another shoe to drop on the Kimbrel trade. I think some team out there will really want a closer upgrade in the off season and make a good trade offer for him. Kimbrel could turn into that good left-handed bat that would fit nicely in the lineup.

Im not so sure that Kimbrel gets moved. The Sox will definitely pick up the option, because at the very least they could get someone to pay the whole contract and a prospect or two for him.

But closers are rarely moved in the off-season, because teams are usually unwilling to give up major assets for a closer until they know they are contenders. If they truly need one, they can usually get one for just money at that point. 

The Sox can have Kimbrel for the first half of the season and still be able to get as much if not more at the deadline. At that point, maybe the Sox decide to recoup some of the farm system losses. But I would bet good money the Sox will be competing for another title next year. If Kopech goes to the rotation, theyll be in the market for a late-inning guy anyway. 

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16 hours ago, Harry Chappas said:

It's a lot easier to pitch when there are zero expectations

I dont know if this is a bit tongue and cheek, but I agree with you. Heuer's sinker/fastball is somewhat broken. His heat map is pretty much just a solid red dot in the middle of the plate. The changeup and slider play for sure.

The Cubs went after Heuer because they can fix him on the fly at the big league level in the way the Sox can't afford to do right now. One or two bullpen losses could mean losing HFA.

The Cubs also believe in their ability to fix bullpen pitchers like they did with Chafin and Tepera. For all the things the Cubs have done wrong in 2021, they have had an elite bullpen for most of the year. 

Point is, even if Heuer does well with the Cubs it does not mean that he wouldve been able to do it for the 2021 White Sox. 

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Said several times to get Colome for free. I hope Madrigal and Codi H. have great careers

 

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22 minutes ago, zisk said:

Said several times to get Colome for free. I hope Madrigal and Codi H. have great careers

 

Huh?

Dude literally sucked so badly in the first month with the Twins that he had to be removed from the Closers role.  The ERA has gone down but a lot of that was use in low leverage situations.  I supposed maybe he was magic in a White Sox uniform but we would be crapping our collective pants in May when Bummer or Kopech were inserted in the Closers role.  

I actually was for signing Colome last year but I was wrong.   I will say Colome is truly a White Sox legend.  Was lights out for us and then imploded for the Twins.  Can't get much better than that.

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In addition, and there was an article about this last year, I don't think Colome's success for us was simply smoke and mirrors.  Dude has been a consistent closer for awhile.  But his success is largely reliant on him being able to spot his cutter.  When he can't do that, he's going to get hit really hard.  He couldn't do that through the first part of this year.

Edited by Colome's Hat
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4 hours ago, Colome's Hat said:

Huh?

Dude literally sucked so badly in the first month with the Twins that he had to be removed from the Closers role.  The ERA has gone down but a lot of that was use in low leverage situations.  I supposed maybe he was magic in a White Sox uniform but we would be crapping our collective pants in May when Bummer or Kopech were inserted in the Closers role.  

I actually was for signing Colome last year but I was wrong.   I will say Colome is truly a White Sox legend.  Was lights out for us and then imploded for the Twins.  Can't get much better than that.

Check my July post. Colome was healthy again. 8-9 good outings in a row. Could have got him for a song. Maybe even a short medley.

Instead the Sox did what they did. Waste of talent. Waste of money. Heuer even up for Kimbrall, maybe.

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8 minutes ago, zisk said:

Check my July post. Colome was healthy again. 8-9 good outings in a row. Could have got him for a song. Maybe even a short medley.

Instead the Sox did what they did. Waste of talent. Waste of money. Heuer even up for Kimbrall, maybe.

Minnesota isn't as desperate to sell of anyone/anytime like Cleveland, There were no reported discussions or rumors that the Twins would have considered giving Colome to help the  White Sox.

The Twins had a ton of guys they could have dumped just to save money, https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2021/07/the-twins-looming-deadline-decisions.html

They wound up limiting trades to Cruz (40 years old/final year in contract), Happ (who has sucked all year and was about to be dropped from their already depleted rotation), and Berrios (solely because Berriors had zero interest in an extension with the team).

They were stubborn and wouldn't give up Buxton for any of the packages offered, or trade pending Free Agents Pineda or Simmons, Cleveland, Washington and Ricketts' Cubs were the three teams desperate to shed any salary they could at the deadline. The Twins weren't.

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20 hours ago, FriendlyNorthsider said:

I dont know if this is a bit tongue and cheek, but I agree with you. Heuer's sinker/fastball is somewhat broken. His heat map is pretty much just a solid red dot in the middle of the plate. The changeup and slider play for sure.

The Cubs went after Heuer because they can fix him on the fly at the big league level in the way the Sox can't afford to do right now. One or two bullpen losses could mean losing HFA.

The Cubs also believe in their ability to fix bullpen pitchers like they did with Chafin and Tepera. For all the things the Cubs have done wrong in 2021, they have had an elite bullpen for most of the year. 

Point is, even if Heuer does well with the Cubs it does not mean that he wouldve been able to do it for the 2021 White Sox. 

It was a great trade for Cubs. Heuer has great arm and is going to put up quite a few low cost above average seasons out of the pen. Sox need Kimbrel to hit and they clearly paid a premium for limited innings. In terms of war traded - could see Sox getting 2-4 war from Kimbrel vs Cubs getting 15-20 war during periods of control. That is a great deal for a team in accumulation phase and both guys can help next year so if you want a quick retool it plays well. 

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On 8/10/2021 at 1:31 PM, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

As I have said prior, paying extra to have him next year is just a waste of prospect/player capital because you could have just signed a top reliever next year and paid him less money and gotten 95% of the productivity that Kimbrel would give you, and I'll argue until I'm blue in the face that there is no guarantee that Kimbrel is absolutely dominant next year; all without giving up Madrigal/Codi.

And this is kinda where I was at the TDL as well. I thought it necessary to add a high leverage RP/someone with closing experience to backup Hendriks.

However, I would have preferred a lower cost option than Kimbrel; I was actually hoping for Yimi Garcia. The trashstros got him for a AAAA pitcher and a AAA OFer outside their top 30 prospects who will require Rule 5 protection.

So, one has to ask, is it better to be +Kimbrel, + Kimbrel's salary/contract, but - Heuer and - Madrigal, or

Would it have been better to get Garcia/his contract for say, ReyLo and Adolfo (closest analogue to what the trashstros gave up I can think of right now), but still have Madrigal and Heuer?

 

While I'm happy that the BP was improved by adding Kimbrel, I think I would have preferred to take on Garcia, and still have the other assets as well. 

We'll have to see.

Edited by Two-Gun Pete

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2 hours ago, zisk said:

Check my July post. Colome was healthy again. 8-9 good outings in a row. Could have got him for a song. Maybe even a short medley.

Instead the Sox did what they did. Waste of talent. Waste of money. Heuer even up for Kimbrall, maybe.

Madrigal was the 1st guy, not the 2nd.

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Can we go back and build a package around Madrigal for Corbin Burnes? Wasn’t that a rumour at one point.

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3 hours ago, zisk said:

Check my July post. Colome was healthy again. 8-9 good outings in a row. Could have got him for a song. Maybe even a short medley.

Instead the Sox did what they did. Waste of talent. Waste of money. Heuer even up for Kimbrall, maybe.

Was Colome ever hurt?  He has had 8-9 good outings in a row but again, he was in incredibly low leverage situations.  He has returned to closing out of necessity because their other options are hurt.  I think we would have a all panicked if Colome was the big acquisition.  I actually was thinking about maybe if they should grab him as a hope and a prayer option.  But give me Kimbrall over him.

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6 hours ago, ShoeLessRob said:

Can we go back and build a package around Madrigal for Corbin Burnes? Wasn’t that a rumour at one point.

Whether it was real or not it was definitely out in the ether.

https://www.reddit.com/r/whitesox/comments/l0vjb6/corbin_burnes_to_white_sox_heard_it_here_first/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb

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The trade was done whether you like it or not. The simple question is will Kimbrel be more useful in helping the WS win a World Series this season or next than Madrigal and Heuer? If the answer is yes then it was a trade that was productive even if Madrigal proves to be as good as he looked. 

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22 minutes ago, Chimpton said:

The trade was done whether you like it or not. The simple question is will Kimbrel be more useful in helping the WS win a World Series this season or next than Madrigal and Heuer? If the answer is yes then it was a trade that was productive even if Madrigal proves to be as good as he looked. 

Assuming they are willing to increase the payroll (Hernandez will be another $4.5 million more, in addition to Kimbrel) and not cut somewhere else. 

Unfortunately, one can not imagine Leury Garcia ever being jettisoned. 

That puts your baseline for 2022 payroll already in the $155-160 million range without adding a backend veteran starter or reliever. 

Edited by caulfield12

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44 minutes ago, Chimpton said:

The trade was done whether you like it or not. The simple question is will Kimbrel be more useful in helping the WS win a World Series this season or next than Madrigal and Heuer? If the answer is yes then it was a trade that was productive even if Madrigal proves to be as good as he looked. 

Well so far the result has been “Now LaRussa can save Hendriks to pitch once a fortnight.” So if LaRussa is still stuck in the “these guys can only pitch in a save situation” and would rather lose games with Ruiz on the mound, even when Hendriks really needs work, maybe I was wrong. These guys don’t help you if the first time they pitch in the playoffs is in the 8th inning of an elimination game when the team is already down.

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1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

Well so far the result has been “Now LaRussa can save Hendriks to pitch once a fortnight.” So if LaRussa is still stuck in the “these guys can only pitch in a save situation” and would rather lose games with Ruiz on the mound, even when Hendriks really needs work, maybe I was wrong. These guys don’t help you if the first time they pitch in the playoffs is in the 8th inning of an elimination game when the team is already down.

Hendricks was available for the 9th inning yesterday.  The expectation as that game went along was that they should have been able to get one run. 

 

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6 minutes ago, Harry Chappas said:

Hendricks was available for the 9th inning yesterday.  The expectation as that game went along was that they should have been able to get one run. 

 

And how many games have we lost this year while the middle or even mop up relief pitchers come into tight games, while the good guys are saved for situations that never happen?

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2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

And how many games have we lost this year while the middle or even mop up relief pitchers come into tight games, while the good guys are saved for situations that never happen?

Arent you keeping track of all of these follies?  Please tell us how many more games they should be up by your estimation.  

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