2021-22 NBA Thread

[Quin]

On 12/5/2021 at 12:08 AM, bmags said:

That is a bummer. We don’t even get bird rights so i don’t even know what’s available to retain if he is good.

I checked Sportrac and it seems like he'll be an early bird restricted free agent. https://www.spotrac.com/nba/chicago-bulls/cap/2023/

Quote

The Bird exception is for players who have spent three seasons with one club without changing teams as a free agent, but Early Bird rights are earned after just two such seasons. Virtually all of the same rules that apply to Bird rights apply to Early Bird rights, with the requirements condensed to two years rather than three. Players still see their Bird clocks restart by changing teams via free agency, being claimed in an expansion draft, or having their rights renounced.

I do not understand the NBA cap / understand why the Bulls just flat out hired a capologist.

[bmags]

29 minutes ago, Quin said:

I checked Sportrac and it seems like he'll be an early bird restricted free agent. https://www.spotrac.com/nba/chicago-bulls/cap/2023/

I do not understand the NBA cap / understand why the Bulls just flat out hired a capologist.

Oh hell yes!

I can't express how much nicer it is to be able to watch a young player develop within a competitive, disciplined team rather than in a mess of other young players trying to figure out their game. 

[ron883]

39 minutes ago, Quin said:

I checked Sportrac and it seems like he'll be an early bird restricted free agent. https://www.spotrac.com/nba/chicago-bulls/cap/2023/

I do not understand the NBA cap / understand why the Bulls just flat out hired a capologist.

The NBA is so damn confusing in this regard compared to the MLB. 

[bmags]

18 minutes ago, ron883 said:

The NBA is so damn confusing in this regard compared to the MLB. 

I've grown to like it. I hated the max deal because once the tier was way too big. And the years restriction has definitely made things worse in terms of players holding teams hostage and being easily moveable at all times.

But star forced movement aside, I do like this system of being able to retain your own talent way over cap restrictions. Not a big fan of parody being achieved by cutting the legs out from great teams the way the nhl/nfl salary cap feels. The luxury tax is a big enough stick to have teams let go of talent that would push them into higher tiers (hello lakers, alex caruso), but if you are a true title contender you are fine going way over to keep your players - if they'll stay.

 

[Quin]

4 minutes ago, bmags said:

I've grown to like it. I hated the max deal because once the tier was way too big. And the years restriction has definitely made things worse in terms of players holding teams hostage and being easily moveable at all times.

But star forced movement aside, I do like this system of being able to retain your own talent way over cap restrictions. Not a big fan of parody being achieved by cutting the legs out from great teams the way the nhl/nfl salary cap feels. The luxury tax is a big enough stick to have teams let go of talent that would push them into higher tiers (hello lakers, alex caruso), but if you are a true title contender you are fine going way over to keep your players - if they'll stay.

 

The Lakers thing to me is cause LeBron is stuck in the 2010's superteam NBA. The current strategy needs depth to pair with 1 megastar + Robins  or 2 stars, but despite winning with that strategy, LeBron wanted to punt all that depth for...Westbrook.

[bmags]

1 minute ago, Quin said:

The Lakers thing to me is cause LeBron is stuck in the 2010's superteam NBA. The current strategy needs depth to pair with 1 megastar + Robins  or 2 stars, but despite winning with that strategy, LeBron wanted to punt all that depth for...Westbrook.

I think that is partially true, but I think Lebron deep down also just knew that he can't be the high usage player they demand he be with a bunch of role players like Kuzma, Caruso, etc. so that's where He probably thought I'll get westbrook, a guy we can just throw it to and tell him to go get it, a player I don't need to coddle about how hard to work.

But I think he was probably only thinking offensively. You now have this exodus of Lakers role players going to two different orgs and completely turning around trash defenses. Not sure they really knew what they had there, because the 2020 lakers won because of defense. But I think they left it with a  "star players cure all" feeling.

[35thstreetswarm]

5 minutes ago, Quin said:

The Lakers thing to me is cause LeBron is stuck in the 2010's superteam NBA. The current strategy needs depth to pair with 1 megastar + Robins  or 2 stars, but despite winning with that strategy, LeBron wanted to punt all that depth for...Westbrook.

Boy does it make me feel old that we're now OK Boomering Lebron James 😂  Totally agree, though.  The Lakers roster is such a weird 2011 all-star team. 

[Chisoxfn]

2 minutes ago, bmags said:

I think that is partially true, but I think Lebron deep down also just knew that he can't be the high usage player they demand he be with a bunch of role players like Kuzma, Caruso, etc. so that's where He probably thought I'll get westbrook, a guy we can just throw it to and tell him to go get it, a player I don't need to coddle about how hard to work.

But I think he was probably only thinking offensively. You now have this exodus of Lakers role players going to two different orgs and completely turning around trash defenses. Not sure they really knew what they had there, because the 2020 lakers won because of defense. But I think they left it with a  "star players cure all" feeling.

Some of this is on Vogel - some of those role players were in the doghouse under Vogel for whatever reason (Montrez in particular).  I also don't think the Lakers not getting Caruso was a luxury tax thing. Westbrook in isolation for what you described wasn't bad - he is an alpha who plays his butt off every day, but he doesn't fit well with the other starters. You almost need him on the court when the bulk of the other guys are out - use him as that ultra energy in those windows where you need that offense - but in a more channeled way (but I don't think Westbrook is ready for that).  Could you imagine Westbrook as a 6th man - how crazy that energy / chaos would be in those more limited minutes (say 20-25).  

But Lakers big miss was moving so many pieces and ending up with such an aging roster.  It was evident when Bulls played them - but Bulls are probably the exact opposite of the Lakers in the sense that the Bulls are small-ball and athletic as heck so the difference in speed, etc sticks out like a sore them.  Against other teams it may be less noticeable but it will still be a massive achilles heal for the Lakers.  

[bmags]

8 minutes ago, 35thstreetswarm said:

Boy does it make me feel old that we're now OK Boomering Lebron James 😂  Totally agree, though.  The Lakers roster is such a weird 2011 all-star team. 

He's done this for a long time now though. He's a win-now player and does not like dealing with young players not knowing what to do. Obviously he's not alone there, Butler and Wade big-timed young bulls roster and Butler did same in MN. But in Miami, where the org does such a good job controlling culture and getting young guys to understand what's expected - it doesn't come up.

But Lebron basically runs the orgs he's in where the energy is keeping Lebron happy, who likes to win and wants everyone to be 100% dedicated to winning but at the same time needs to take time off to ensure he can still go in playoffs - it's difficult to hold both of those. He's the biggest person in any org he's in, except when he was in the org of Pat Riley.

I hated Riley as a kid, but holy cow do I respect what he's built in Miami. And how he groomed Spoelstra to takeover to, and supported him. How he rebuilt Miami without ever tanking, how he's kept the org modern in fitness and player dev. Truly amazing stuff to be that good for that long. 

[bmags]

just got goosebumps thinking about last night's game. This is a hell of a team.

[Stinky Stanky]

The Nets made just Luka look ordinary for the entire second half and stole a game on their own floor.  That's the plan, keep him out of the paint and make him shoot the ball.  Look at his percentages, not the highlights. Our old buddy JJ was a big part of it, too.  All right, you know I like the guy. 😀  Bulls match up well with either team, might get deeper than we think into the playoffs.

[TheTruth05]

 

 

[chw42]

20 minutes ago, TheTruth05 said:

 

 

I blame the Hornets.

[Quin]

I have no idea how the Bulls get in on the Pacers sell-off, but they should.

 

[chw42]

1 minute ago, Quin said:

I have no idea how the Bulls get in on the Pacers sell-off, but they should.

 

Turner would be an amazing get for this team, but they'd probably have to give quite a bit to get him.

[bmags]

I am probably wrong, but I have substantially raised my ceiling for what this team can accomplish (though bucks look incredible, anything can happen) and to me I don't think what is specifically added by a Turner/Sabonis isn't near as valuable as to what a harrison barnes could do (someone to slow down Giannis). Vuc doesn't want to stand at the 3, Demar needs to get space in mid range (just a little, but a little), adding two guys who will be operating in a similar area offensively will be difficult to use in the playoffs.

I think there will be buyout bigs that could approximate what you want from turner anyway (blocking). Though I know sabonis is very good but I think it's a little too much of what we are already decent at.

Who knows what's needed to get one, maybe its cheap enough, but man if we got harrison barnes we'd have an incredibly versatile defense. He's still not an amazing rebounder, but he's better, and he can play that patrick williams 4 role that can switch on 3s. We'd still be small but playing a true defensive center with Vuc just doesn't seem to work. May as well just put the screws on this insane perimeter defense and try to prevent teams as much as possible from even being able to set up.

[Chisoxfn]

51 minutes ago, chw42 said:

Turner would be an amazing get for this team, but they'd probably have to give quite a bit to get him.

This - he is a perfect fit. But no clue how you get him.  

[Tony]

10 minutes ago, Chisoxfn said:

This - he is a perfect fit. But no clue how you get him.  

What is a fair package for him? 

[chw42]

52 minutes ago, bmags said:

I am probably wrong, but I have substantially raised my ceiling for what this team can accomplish (though bucks look incredible, anything can happen) and to me I don't think what is specifically added by a Turner/Sabonis isn't near as valuable as to what a harrison barnes could do (someone to slow down Giannis). Vuc doesn't want to stand at the 3, Demar needs to get space in mid range (just a little, but a little), adding two guys who will be operating in a similar area offensively will be difficult to use in the playoffs.

I think there will be buyout bigs that could approximate what you want from turner anyway (blocking). Though I know sabonis is very good but I think it's a little too much of what we are already decent at.

Who knows what's needed to get one, maybe its cheap enough, but man if we got harrison barnes we'd have an incredibly versatile defense. He's still not an amazing rebounder, but he's better, and he can play that patrick williams 4 role that can switch on 3s. We'd still be small but playing a true defensive center with Vuc just doesn't seem to work. May as well just put the screws on this insane perimeter defense and try to prevent teams as much as possible from even being able to set up.

Barnes would be an all-out move that would probably require moving Patrick Williams to get. I'm not sure a package around Coby White gets you Barnes. They can always try to go a bit cheaper and get someone like Robert Covington, who does a lot of what Barnes gives you, he just doesn't do it as well. 

[scs787]

54 minutes ago, bmags said:

I am probably wrong, but I have substantially raised my ceiling for what this team can accomplish (though bucks look incredible, anything can happen) and to me I don't think what is specifically added by a Turner/Sabonis isn't near as valuable as to what a harrison barnes could do (someone to slow down Giannis). Vuc doesn't want to stand at the 3, Demar needs to get space in mid range (just a little, but a little), adding two guys who will be operating in a similar area offensively will be difficult to use in the playoffs.

I think there will be buyout bigs that could approximate what you want from turner anyway (blocking). Though I know sabonis is very good but I think it's a little too much of what we are already decent at.

Who knows what's needed to get one, maybe its cheap enough, but man if we got harrison barnes we'd have an incredibly versatile defense. He's still not an amazing rebounder, but he's better, and he can play that patrick williams 4 role that can switch on 3s. We'd still be small but playing a true defensive center with Vuc just doesn't seem to work. May as well just put the screws on this insane perimeter defense and try to prevent teams as much as possible from even being able to set up.

I'm with you on this. Especially if Vuc can do what we know he can do offensively, I don't think they have to add a superstar to disrupt what has been working so well offensively. I'd love to get someone without having to give up the Portland pick. Idk what Barnes would cost, but I'd be more than fine with him. The guy I still have my eye on is Covington. I think he's the perfect fit for what the Bulls like to do defensively. 

[Chisoxfn]

13 minutes ago, Tony said:

What is a fair package for him? 

No idea - but I feel like he wouldn't mess up the spacing too much but that risk obviously exists. I presume Portland pick plus Pat and White?  On Barnes - if you can get him for White and the Portland pick I'm all over it.  It could be the perfect story - grab another person from a bad team (Sactown) and have him join this cast of misfits (albeit Barnes obviously has rings).  

I just haven't watched Barnes enough to know his game but his size and speed actually fits Donovan's system to a T - Bmags post said it best.  The only question is how will the shots get split up adding someone like Barnes (it probably works cause you just start staggering minutes and have some of these guys get more time with 2nd unit vs. 1st).  

[Kyyle23]

Bulls using the hardship exception to sign Stanley Johnson from the G league 

[Jack Parkman]

1.What would everyone think about trading Pat Williams and Coby White for a legit starting quality big? I have no idea how Williams is going to develop with the amount of touches he'd get here. Both of those guys seem better suited as trade chips to help build a championship roster. 

2. Trading Gafford and/or flipping Mo Wagner for Troy Brown seems misguided right now. 

3. How isn't Lavine re-signed yet? That kinda freaks me out a bit. 

Edited December 8, 2021 by Jack Parkman

[chw42]

4 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

1.What would everyone think about trading Pat Williams and Coby White for a legit starting quality big? I have no idea how Williams is going to develop with the amount of touches he'd get here. Both of those guys seem better suited as trade chips to help build a championship roster. 

2. Trading Gafford and/or flipping Mo Wagner for Troy Brown seems misguided right now. 

3. How isn't Lavine re-signed yet? That kinda freaks me out a bit. 

LaVine will re-sign in the off-season, especially with this team on the brink of title contention.

And yeah, getting rid of Gafford kind of hurts now. He's a much better version of Tony Bradley and the Bulls have so many wing players that Brown barely plays. It's funny cause the Bulls had the exact opposite problem last year. 

I wouldn't trade Williams for anything unless that piece puts the team in title contention. Myles Turner, Sabonis, and Harrison Barnes are guys I would consider for somebody like Williams. White should be able to get you a decent starting big man, but as some others have alluded to here, I don't think they need to trade for a big man, they can just get somebody who gets bought-out early next year. 

[Chisoxfn]

53 minutes ago, chw42 said:

LaVine will re-sign in the off-season, especially with this team on the brink of title contention.

And yeah, getting rid of Gafford kind of hurts now. He's a much better version of Tony Bradley and the Bulls have so many wing players that Brown barely plays. It's funny cause the Bulls had the exact opposite problem last year. 

I wouldn't trade Williams for anything unless that piece puts the team in title contention. Myles Turner, Sabonis, and Harrison Barnes are guys I would consider for somebody like Williams. White should be able to get you a decent starting big man, but as some others have alluded to here, I don't think they need to trade for a big man, they can just get somebody who gets bought-out early next year. 

It is also okay to hold onto Williams and White. Selling low on assets isn’t always good and I am okay waiting a year on them. Either way right now I trust this front office a ton. Hopefully they keep earning that trust.