MLB 2021-2 off season thread

[caulfield12]

Why is CWS surprised here?

You know Merkin will play down things automatically, he’s pretty much a mirror of Hahn and even a bit more pragmatic and realistic than our own front office, guys such as KW and Haber.

Garfien is more of a cheerleader, the constantly optimistic type.

Merkin even wrote about Burger being an option at second already.

[Dick Allen]

1 hour ago, CWSpalehoseCWS said:

I agree with him. The Sox don’t need superstars at every position - plus it’s not realistic to have that expectation. The team with the worst record among playoff teams won the whole thing. Two 100+ teams failed to make the WS. It’s not the first time we’ve seen that either. Just get the right players that fill out the holes on this team the best. I’d be ecstatic with Conforto and Escobar.

Yes the Houston series many point to was distorted.  If Gio, a guy now a few are saying the teams window will close when he leaves has any command, the Soxx win game 2 and can pitch him game 5, and Houston has had all kinds of problems with him. They win that, they have homefield with Lynn. That is with all of their issues. I hope they are aggressive,  and I think they will be, but some better health and some growth will make this team really good even if we are all disappointed with the activity this winter.

Edited November 19, 2021 by Dick Allen

[caulfield12]

28 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Yes the Houston series many point to was distorted.  If Gio, a guy now a few are saying the teams window will close when he leaves has any command, the Soxx win game 2 and can pitch him game 5, and Houston has had all kinds of problems with him. They win that, they have homefield with Lynn. That is with all of their issues. I hope they are aggressive,  and I think they will be, but some better health and some growth will make this team really good even if we are all disappointed with the activity this winter.

The odds are still better than 50/50 Giolito will be their most reliable starter at the end of 2023.

He’s in that select group of pitchers (less than one per team) who gave more than 170 innings coming off 2020.

And his numbers look a helluva lot better if you take out the Patriots Day start and the one TLR stubbornly refused to pull him and a bunch of his runners were surrendered by a reliever.

[Snopek]

16 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Yes the Houston series many point to was distorted.  If Gio, a guy now a few are saying the teams window will close when he leaves has any command, the Soxx win game 2 and can pitch him game 5, and Houston has had all kinds of problems with him. They win that, they have homefield with Lynn. That is with all of their issues. I hope they are aggressive,  and I think they will be, but some better health and some growth will make this team really good even if we are all disappointed with the activity this winter.

While this is clearly true, it would still be very irresponsible if they used that rationale for not making certain moves. Not saying that's what you're implying, but I feel like the FO can rely a bit too much on crossed fingers at times. 

[Baron]

 

[caulfield12]

https://www.startribune.com/twins-byron-buxton-trade-credibility-issue/600118187/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=twins
 

We should just trade Eloy OR Vaughn and Crochet and 2 minor leaguers for Buxton, sign him to an extension and solve the diversity issue in one fell swoop.

Now that would be ballsy, since the risk level would be extremely elevated.  But those two guys in the same outfield together would be amazing.

[caulfield12]

3 minutes ago, Baron said:

 

They’re really claiming Avi can play CF, or Leury, lol?

[Bob Sacamano]

8 minutes ago, Baron said:

 

Some activity around the league and some moves by the Sox would be nice before the lock out. 

[Lillian]

In summary: I would choose "Chicago White Sox" option B:

Option B:

• Michael Conforto: 4/$76M | $19M AAV
• Eduardo Escobar: 2/$20M | $10M AAV
• Chris Bassitt ($9M) for Jake Burger, Jose Rodriguez, & Jason Bilous

I'd add 2 bullpen arms and a good defensive backup catcher. 

It wouldn't hurt to resign Leury for the bench.

Line up vs. RHP

3B        Moncada

SS         Anderson

1B/DH Abreu

RF         Conforto

LF          Eloy

CF          Robert

C            Grandal

1B/DH   Sheets

2B          Escobar

BENCH:

Leury, Engel, back up catcher and someone like Hamilton for defensive replacement and pinch runner.

Trade Vaughn for more starting rotation depth (good, young Major League ready pitching prospect).

 

 

Edited November 19, 2021 by Lillian

[Bob Sacamano]

4 hours ago, Lillian said:

If they signed both Semien and Conforto, Vaughn would become expendable and better utilized as trade bait for pitching depth. The lineup would be dangerous, one through 9. In fact, one would be challenged to construct a lineup, given the fact that somebody has to bat in the bottom third of the order:

Versus RHP:

SS Anderson

3B Moncada

CF Robert

1B Abreu

2B Semien

RF Conforto

LF Eloy

C  Grandal

DH Sheets

That lineup has 3 RH hitters batting consecutively, in the middle of the order. However, how else could it be constructed. It wouldn't make sense for Robert, Abreu or Semien to bat any lower, especially with how well Semien hits RHP. That is why it just seems like overkill. Perhaps, Conforto and Escobar make more sense, with the money saved, spent on pitching. Escobar would cost a fraction of what Semien will get. Moreover, Vaughn could still be traded for pitching, as there is no room for him, even if Escobar is added, instead of Semien. 

It would be nice if they actually moved Abreu down when he struggles but he seems entrenched in the 3/4 spot of the lineup no matter what.

[southsider2k5]

25 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

https://www.startribune.com/twins-byron-buxton-trade-credibility-issue/600118187/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=twins
 

We should just trade Eloy OR Vaughn and Crochet and 2 minor leaguers for Buxton, sign him to an extension and solve the diversity issue in one fell swoop.

Now that would be ballsy, since the risk level would be extremely elevated.  But those two guys in the same outfield together would be amazing.

There is a prop bet, who misses more games to injury next year, Buxton or Eloy?

[Rey21]

56 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Yes the Houston series many point to was distorted.  If Gio, a guy now a few are saying the teams window will close when he leaves has any command, the Soxx win game 2 and can pitch him game 5, and Houston has had all kinds of problems with him. They win that, they have homefield with Lynn. That is with all of their issues. I hope they are aggressive,  and I think they will be, but some better health and some growth will make this team really good even if we are all disappointed with the activity this winter.

The issue wasn’t only the pitching though it was the offense, outside of 1 inning that series they were struggling to do much of anything. I really believe the team does need a shakeup because as others have mentioned too this team is way too redundant. Get a big bat who can carry an offense when it slumps because it really feels like with the current lineup when 1 guy slumps the whole lineup slumps. 

[kleedawg]

4 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

https://www.fangraphs.com/players/robbie-ray/11486/stats?position=P
 

Ray had only a 2.8 fWAR cumulatively from 2018-2020.

Giving him a $150-175 contract is the definition of insanity for a franchise like the White Sox.

Even the three years prior to that, he averaged around 3.  That’s certainly good, but not the best usage of $25 million per season to buy at the highest possible price on the market.

I'm not sure Ray's past years are all that relevant here. He made a series of Mechanically changes that allowed him to throw more strikes and be far more deceptive. He is very much a different pitcher than he had previously been much in the same way Giolitto has been since shortening his arm swing. so looking at last year as just a career year outlier for Ray is probably foolish.

[Bob Sacamano]

Just now, kleedawg said:

I'm not sure Ray's past years are all that relevant here. He made a series of Mechanically changes that allowed him to throw more strikes and be far more deceptive. He is very much a different pitcher than he had previously been much in the same way Giolitto has been since shortening his arm swing. so looking at last year as just a career year outlier for Ray is probably foolish.

Yeah I remember they had a segment on him on MLBN back in like June. His mechanics this year were different from the time he was with Arizona and even 2020 with the Jays (there was a change in mechanics post-trade in 2020 when he was with Jays).

[Dick Allen]

2 minutes ago, Rey21 said:

The issue wasn’t only the pitching though it was the offense, outside of 1 inning that series they were struggling to do much of anything. I really believe the team does need a shakeup because as others have mentioned too this team is way too redundant. Get a big bat who can carry an offense when it slumps because it really feels like with the current lineup when 1 guy slumps the whole lineup slumps. 

The 2000 White Sox got swept in the first round. Frank Thomas and Paul Konerko were hitless. Yes, this offense struggled at times, but I still think if they are healthy it is pretty stacked. Some guys are going to improve. Grandal probably doesn’t replicate, but even if Roberts numbers come down a little, having him most of the time will help. Another bat would be great, but I really doubt JR is going to spend big before he knows what the next CBA looks like. Remember, he was the only owner to vote against Manfred, and the thought was he thought Manfred would be too soft with the Players Union. I wish their payroll was ridiculous, most of their division would give up. But that isn’t going to happen. These names and scenarios are fun to look at, but I think the reality is the Sox will fill holes, but with cheaper alternatives.

[Dick Allen]

4 minutes ago, kleedawg said:

I'm not sure Ray's past years are all that relevant here. He made a series of Mechanically changes that allowed him to throw more strikes and be far more deceptive. He is very much a different pitcher than he had previously been much in the same way Giolitto has been since shortening his arm swing. so looking at last year as just a career year outlier for Ray is probably foolish.

We have heard the same thing about a lot of pitchers. But usually they revert back to closer to what they were before, Ray has had a few nice seasons. He didn’t go from awful his whole career to one of the best. But I think you get burned if you pay him like one of the best.

[Jack Parkman]

2 hours ago, Bob Sacamano said:

It’s not so much that they are “fake” offers. It’s more that they are trying to get the mega-deal type players at their price which, what they end up signing for is never really the case.

Nailed it. 

They're not serious because their offers are never something that has a snowball's chance in hell of getting accepted. 

Edited November 19, 2021 by Jack Parkman

[kleedawg]

22 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

We have heard the same thing about a lot of pitchers. But usually they revert back to closer to what they were before, Ray has had a few nice seasons. He didn’t go from awful his whole career to one of the best. But I think you get burned if you pay him like one of the best.

I was not debating the part on how much Ray should or should not be paid nor how much should or should not be invested in the role. Those are all relevant topics to be discussed though.

I'm solely suggesting That in Ray's Specific case  he should not be lumped into with all those pitchers that have been mediocre then have had an outstanding year and regress to the means. Yes  they often cited small changes they made that initially work. I'm saying his changes have significant long lasting impact much like Gio's. Do we think Gio is going to revert back to numbers like he had with a long arm swing? Ray's specific mechanical changes correlate so well with why he is having success that I think they will continue as long as he stays healthy. Both he and Gio are different pitchers than they were. The other guys are just guys that found lightning in a bottle for a year.

Dick, I think your assessment is essentially correct in most cases, but not this specific one.

Edited November 19, 2021 by kleedawg

[southsider2k5]

 

[Balta1701]

41 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

The 2000 White Sox got swept in the first round. Frank Thomas and Paul Konerko were hitless.

They then missed the playoffs the next 4 years.

[kleedawg]

5 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

They then missed the playoffs the next 4 years.

Yep, 2001 saw a slew of injuries including the Big hurt going down earlier, and the shitty twins got real good. The following sox teams were mostly good too, just couldn't win that one big series against the twins to take the division until 05. Then the tigers got good to join the twins. Interesting that the sox have never been a wild card team (except for whatever that 2020 covid thing was).

[T R U]

Yeah im not trading Jose Rodriguez

[Dick Allen]

15 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

They then missed the playoffs the next 4 years.

It was because they had guys like Danny Wright pitching.  They had plenty of offense even though they had a bad series.  If they don't trade Foulke for Koch, and Thomas and Ordone don't both get hurt, they may have won the WS earlier. 

[iWiN4PreP]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

https://www.startribune.com/twins-byron-buxton-trade-credibility-issue/600118187/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=twins
 

We should just trade Eloy OR Vaughn and Crochet and 2 minor leaguers for Buxton, sign him to an extension and solve the diversity issue in one fell swoop.

Now that would be ballsy, since the risk level would be extremely elevated.  But those two guys in the same outfield together would be amazing.

With all due respect, this is one of the worst ideas I’ve heard. 
 

so you want to trade our studs AND spend a huge amount of money on a guy who is chronically injured?? 
 

look, i adore buxton and would be floored to have him play for us. But why wouldn’t we just keep our dudes and sign a stud of for the money?? Or if we were going to trade them, why not trade them for a guy who isn’t about to hit free agency and stays on the field?

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

https://www.startribune.com/twins-byron-buxton-trade-credibility-issue/600118187/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=twins
 

We should just trade Eloy OR Vaughn and Crochet and 2 minor leaguers for Buxton, sign him to an extension and solve the diversity issue in one fell swoop.

Now that would be ballsy, since the risk level would be extremely elevated.  But those two guys in the same outfield together would be amazing.

What in the fuck bro