Madrigal

[Chick Mercedes]

10 hours ago, TaylorStSox said:

Kimbrel sucking doesn't mean Madrigal is good. It's a bad trade because Kimbrel sucked, not that we gave away a ton for him. 

Part of the evaluation is based on the results. I disagree on the Madrigal opinion, but agree on the results oriented evaluation of the deal. This deal was always done because the Sox expected it to push them over the top to win the ‘ship. You had better win it all if you make this kind of deal. But unfortunately, the Sox specialize in this sort of miscalculation. Over and over.

[TaylorStSox]

1 hour ago, Chick Mercedes said:

Part of the evaluation is based on the results. I disagree on the Madrigal opinion, but agree on the results oriented evaluation of the deal. This deal was always done because the Sox expected it to push them over the top to win the ‘ship. You had better win it all if you make this kind of deal. But unfortunately, the Sox specialize in this sort of miscalculation. Over and over.

The risk is worth a 5'6 slap hitting defensive hack with a torn hamstring. Madrigal is very replaceable. He'll never be better than replacement level. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 hour ago, TaylorStSox said:

The risk is worth a 5'6 slap hitting defensive hack with a torn hamstring. Madrigal is very replaceable. He'll never be better than replacement level. 

Except for the games he's already played and been better than replacement level? Weird post.

[TaylorStSox]

2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Except for the games he's already played and been better than replacement level? Weird post.

He has 324 PA's and he's coming off a torn hamstring. Based on that and his physical limitations, I'd be very surprised if he's ever better than anything other than average. He's a 5'6 one tool player coming off a serious leg injury. Good luck. 

[ChiSox59]

1 hour ago, TaylorStSox said:

 

1 hour ago, TaylorStSox said:

The risk is worth a 5'6 slap hitting defensive hack with a torn hamstring. Madrigal is very replaceable. He'll never be better than replacement level. 

He was on pace for 4 fWAR season. So yeah, you’re wrong. 

Edited October 10, 2021 by ChiSox59

[TaylorStSox]

1 minute ago, ChiSox59 said:

He’s alrs

 

He was on pace for 4 fWAR season. So yeah, you’re wrong. 

How can I be wrong when he's never completed a season? You may have a different opinion, but neither of us are "wrong." "He'll never be" suggests the future, does it not? 

[hi8is]

2 hours ago, TaylorStSox said:

How can I be wrong when he's never completed a season? You may have a different opinion, but neither of us are "wrong." "He'll never be" suggests the future, does it not? 

It’s really really short sighted to make a long term statement like that on the basis of a players first season… especially when that player was playing well before going down to an injury.

[Dominikk85]

7 hours ago, TaylorStSox said:

He has 324 PA's and he's coming off a torn hamstring. Based on that and his physical limitations, I'd be very surprised if he's ever better than anything other than average. He's a 5'6 one tool player coming off a serious leg injury. Good luck. 

Replacement level is very different from average. A cost controlled players who is average is actually worth quite a bit. You can't win just with average players but every team needs Some average players too. Having  average players in the bottom of the lineup instead of a replacement or sub replacement guys is often the difference between making the playoffs or not. Sub replacement level players in the bottom of the lineup and back of the rotation was the reason the Sox were not winning with sale, quintana, Eaton and konerko when They all were still good. 

That being said the injuries are a concern with madrigal especially when they start to affect his defense and running. 

[ChiSox59]

7 hours ago, TaylorStSox said:

How can I be wrong when he's never completed a season? You may have a different opinion, but neither of us are "wrong." "He'll never be" suggests the future, does it not? 

You said he’ll never be better than a replacement level player. He was well above that in less than half a season. It’s math. So yeah, you’re still wrong. 

Edited October 10, 2021 by ChiSox59

[caulfield12]

Let's say they did have Bohm or Kelenic instead...Sox wouldn't be any better off, at least this year. The biggest problem is largely missing on their evaluations with pitchers in recent drafts.

[Jerry McNertney]

I don't understand all the divisiveness about Madrigal. I felt the "trade" for Kimbrel was actually a gift to the Cubs. One can never assume a player's future health. It's possible that Madrigal's injuries are mostly behind him. I can see him hitting .300+ for a decade or more, maybe a modern day Manny Mota or better. Players who hit .300+ don't grow on trees. If they did, as a GM I would take an orchard full of them.

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, Jerry McNertney said:

I don't understand all the divisiveness about Madrigal. I felt the "trade" for Kimbrel was actually a gift to the Cubs. One can never assume a player's future health. It's possible that Madrigal's injuries are mostly behind him. I can see him hitting .300+ for a decade or more, maybe a modern day Manny Mota or better. Players who hit .300+ don't grow on trees. If they did, as a GM I would take an orchard full of them.

Madrigal is a very divisive player. Having one important tool that is so weak almost guaranteed that. I get people liking him, but I was thrilled to get the best reliever in the game for him. Oops.

[caulfield12]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

Madrigal is a very divisive player. Having one important tool that is so weak almost guaranteed that. I get people liking him, but I was thrilled to get the best reliever in the game for him. Oops.

There were quite a few of us speaking out that day that Kimbrel in a non~closing role was a recipe for disaster. It was just a guess or intuition...but you shouldn't base your postseason chances on a hunch if you're a major league front office paid hundreds of thousands or millions cumulatively to make these decisions. Would love to know who was for and against, internally.  And then there was a lot of whispers about him (Madrigal) rubbing some the wrong way, his earnest religious beliefs that also could potentially be divisive. You'd like to think they would have weighed all that more carefully.  Long term, all those injuries will weigh down his base running and fielding, the two areas along with contact hitting he was supposed to be really good if not a notch below elite.  And all that said, he was really coming into his own before the injury, looking more and more comfortable, confidence coming back from OSU form.

[The Kids Can Play]

On 10/8/2021 at 6:04 PM, WBWSF said:

I would think that the White Sox won't pickup Kimbrels option. They also won't pickup Ceasars option. That being said, who will be the second baseman for the White Sox in 2022?

  Love to get back FA Marcus Semien.

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, The Kids Can Play said:

  Love to get back FA Marcus Semien.

Seager or Story are more realistic…but it will undoubtedly be Andrelton Simmons since KW was in love with him a decade ago.

Or Baez, but he’s such a prototypical feast or famine guy, it would be too fitting for this lineup.

If you want to win in the postseason, you definitely need a guy like Seager or Correa, though.  If they could stay healthy, that is.

 

Hate the idea of overpaying for Semien’s homer binge this year, then getting 18-20 next year…the Cesar Hernandez Effect. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 minute ago, caulfield12 said:

Seager or Story are more realistic…but it will undoubtedly be Andrelton Simmons since KW was in love with him a decade ago.

Or Baez, but he’s such a prototypical feast or famine guy, it would be too fitting for this lineup.

If you want to win in the postseason, you definitely need a guy like Seager or Correa, though.  If they could stay healthy, that is.

 

Hate the idea of overpaying for Semien’s homer binge this year, then getting 18-20 next year…the Cesar Hernandez Effect. 

Seager is going to cost like 150 million more than Semien, how in the world is he more realistic?

[caulfield12]

3 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Seager is going to cost like 150 million more than Semien, how in the world is he more realistic?

He at least fills a massive LH need in the lineup.

If Seager’s getting $225+ million despite his injury history, the White Sox might as well give up.

It means we get Story, Simmons or Baez, at best.  And the dynamic of the lineup hardly changes at all.   Might as well just play Burger there until he gets hurt again. 

 

Buying high on Semien is just another version of the Dunn deal waiting to happen…compounded by the fact he was originally brought up by the Sox.

[Bob Sacamano]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

He at least fills a massive LH need in the lineup.

If Seager’s getting $225+ million despite his injury history, the White Sox might as well give up.

It means we get Story, Simmons or Baez, at best.  And the dynamic of the lineup hardly changes at all.   Might as well just play Burger there until he gets hurt again. 

 

Buying high on Semien is just another version of the Dunn deal waiting to happen…compounded by the fact he was originally brought up by the Sox.

That doesn’t mean he’s more realistic.

[Dick Allen]

Spending all the money needed to sign Semein would be more proof those saying replacing Madrigal is easy are full of shit.

 

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, Dick Allen said:

Spending all the money needed to sign Semein would be more proof those saying replacing Madrigal is easy are full of shit.

 

Madrigal to Semien would be a massive upgrade. Average player to regular MVP candidate.

[bmags]

10 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Spending all the money needed to sign Semein would be more proof those saying replacing Madrigal is easy are full of shit.

 

Bizarre logic.

[ShoeLessRob]

This team is in need of serious help verse righty pitchers, whether that’s second or RF they need more balance to the lineup. 

[YourWhatHurts]

Madrigal was always going to be a liability on defense given his lack of defensive tools.  Upgrading over Madrigal was already a good idea.  

What the Sox lost when they traded him for Kimbrel was trade value and opportunity.  It was more than anything an opportunity cost wasted that could have resulted in at least an elite RP, or as part of a package for an above-average or better RF/SP/C/2B which another team was going to lose to FA anyway (and who would be willing to sign to play for us).

I am absolutely positive that for Madrigal straight-up they could have at least gotten a Staumont type of player if not that guy himself: an electric pre-arb or 1st year arb back-end RP who is controllable for several years.  The fact that the Sox added Heuer and the Cubs took back no salary is really a joke.

I get the thought behind the move, but I don't get the prioritization of a second closer over RF or another Tepera type.  I argued all the way up to the deadline that the Sox pen was going to be hard to improve at the highest levels, because if Bummer and Heuer turned it around then there's no one they could have gotten that would have been an improvement over those guys anyway, and if Bummer and Heuer did not turn it around, then the chances of winning anything were very slim.  But at least the pen was an area loaded with high-end talent, even if much of that talent was underperforming.  Contrast that to the RF position and it's night and day, because there is no talent to put out there in RF.  No depth at all.  

Re: Semien, not a chance the Sox spend that kind of money.  The Sox will sign Chris Taylor to what will become a bad deal and there will be like a thousand articles about what a genius move it is all offseason, then the regular season will start and it will be apparent that Sox gonna Sox.

[YourWhatHurts]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

Madrigal to Semien would be a massive upgrade. Average player to regular MVP candidate.

It is literally an upgrade over like every single category of baseball playing ability except for pure contact / lack of Ks.

No way the Sox spend money like that.  None.

My little thought revolves around Abrams from the Padres in a deal where some salary exchanges hands and we give them an upgrade somewhere while taking on ideally one of their highly-paid SP.  I bet the Padres are going to be desperate to make moves again this offseason and now they won't have much room to spend / take on salary.

[hi8is]

 

Edited October 10, 2021 by hi8is